Possible changes in the new codex.

[Marshal Loss]

I honestly think this is the best CSM book of any kind since 3.5. It wouldn't be a GW book without there being a handful of ???s, but overall they've done a superb job. A good omen for future CSM codexes.

[Irate Khornate]

I like what they've done with Mortarion. It now feels like if my opponent puts him on the field that isn't a quarter of their army wasted.

 

I'll even take it further and say that he's not been over buffed. If it's a model I can target turn one that can never hide, it needs staying power. If it's a model that is the primarch of an entire legion known for their endurance, he better be able to drink baneblade shots as a morning snack.

[hopkins]

So can I still run the following?

 

Plasma champ, 2 plasma guns, 4 bolters

Plasma champ, 2 plasma guns, 4 bolters

Plasma champ, 2 blight launchers, 2 axe/mace, 2 flails

[Marshal Loss]

So can I still run the following?

 

Plasma champ, 2 plasma guns, 4 bolters

Plasma champ, 2 plasma guns, 4 bolters

Plasma champ, 2 blight launchers, 2 axe/mace, 2 flails

Unfortunately no to all 3

[McElMcNinja]

If I’m reading it correctly, outside what you bring on the champ, you only can have 1 of each weapon per 5 models.

[Marshal Loss]

If I’m reading it correctly, outside what you bring on the champ, you only can have 1 of each weapon per 5 models.

Outside of the Champion, you can have

• 1 Blight Launcher
• 1 Plague Spewer
• If 10 man, 1 additional Blight Launcher or Plague Spewer
• For every 5 models, 1 Plasma/Melta/Belcher

[Dark Legionnare]

I honestly think this is the best CSM book of any kind since 3.5. It wouldn't be a GW book without there being a handful of ???s, but overall they've done a superb job. A good omen for future CSM codexes.

Amen, brother. That's what I was just telling a friend.  3.5 chaos still beats it out, because damn... That book was the most fun list-crafting I've (and other friends) have had in our entire 40k careers.

 

But like you said, reading over my friend's copy of the new DG codex this morning, I was getting those "So fluffy, so customizable" vibes like 3.5 had. Obviously not as much, but still enough to feel like it's going in the right direction.

[jgascoine011]

 

It's possible also to have an insane amount of special weapons in a PM squad; you could, in a 10 man squad, have e.g. a plasma gun on a champ, 2x blight launchers, a plague spewer, and 2x plasma guns.

 

So the changes to loadouts hurt PM players who wanted to spam axes or dual knives, and Blightlord players who took lots of combi-weapons, but it's not wholly negative: lots of incentive to take a 10 man squad now.

 

7 man or bust! I can't bring myself to take 10, it just feels so wrong.

 

Even if it's just the melee options for PM that are hurt, it still feels crappy. Melee PM squads were something interesting and new and it'll be a shame if they're restricted to the point you stop seeing them. That said I haven't seen the exact restrictions yet so maybe it's not as bad as I fear. It certainly doesn't sound as bad as the awful Karadron "You must take one of each of these completely different weapons in the squad" debacle.

 

I like the rest of what I've seen of the Codex though, so I feel positive overall.

 

 

Im just not a GW fan boy praising everything they do even if its a pile of garbage.

Some of the things coming out of people is laughable. Take the plague surgeon, SM does exactly the same thing and nobody takes him for his crappy 6+++, they take him because he can bring back a model, yet youtubers etc are going how amazing he is because he gives a 6+++

Its very frustrating when you pay 100s of £ to play a army because you like how they play and then GW decide to :cuss all over it.

 

There are 3 things in this codex that are good: Mortarion, +1 wound to marines, and the contagion ability...thats it.

If i had the choice of playing this codex or the old one I would undoutably play the old one.

DR got nerfed, HQs got nerfed, Arch contaminator nerfed, Strats got :cuss all over.

 

My main opponents are SM (white scars and blood angles), Admech, and chaos. The chaos player has 3 decimators which do mortal wounds, 12W with a 4++. On average they wipe out 10 Blight lord terminators. The admech guy has 5 of those robots which put out a :cuss load of shots. Just how exactly are you supposed to kill them? 

 

I am all up for being +ve but just what are you seeing that makes you go oh wow thats cool (other than mortarion).

 

I am seriosly trying to be +ve but every time i look im just like golly gee were GW thinking.

At 1st i thought ok take a LoC with arch contaminator and deepstrike in 10 BL terminators with combi bolters and use the strats for rapid fire 3, plague weapons, hit on 2s, VotLW. with 6s being AP-4...then i realised rapid fire 3 strat has gone. Ok, thats still 40 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding most vehicles on 4s (re-rolling), for an average of 30 wounds, 10 of which are at AP-4, ok i will take that. Oh but then i realised that the AP-4 is for combat only, So in the end, over 500 points kills 5 marines in shooting.  For half the points, i can take a CSM terminator squad, and put out 40 S8 AP-3 D2 shots....and CSM are supposed to be bad lol

[L30n1d4s]

@jgascoine011

 

You are certainly entitled to think this codex is hot garbage, and based on your posting you seem dead set on doing so no matter what evidence others produce to the contrary, but I think you are DEFINITELY missing major strengths of Death Guard beyond "Mortarion, +1 wound for Marine models, and Contagions:"

 

 

1 - Plague Marines at 21 points -- So, if you compare them to other Marines, say Intercessors (who cost 20 points), they get T5, Disgustingly Resilient (making it much harder to get through the 2W profile), the option to take a whole myriad of shooting and melee war gear options that Intercessors do not get (i.e. Intercessors can only give a few upgrades to their Sergeant and the option to pick one of three flavors of bolt rifles). If you want to say that Intercessors get Chapter Tactics and Doctrines, well then the Plague Marines get "Inexorable Advance" and the "Nurgle's Gift" Contagion for -1T for nearby enemy, which easily makes them able to compete (or even out compete) many Marine Chapters in both shooting and melee. Bottom line, for 1 point more than an equivalent Intercessor, you a re getting a SIGNIFICANTLY tougher Objective Secured unit that can be kitted to excel in either shooting or melee... you can't really ask more of a Troop unit than this, IMHO.

 

2 - Plagueburst Crawlers at 165 pints -- With the improved BS 3+ and a flat Dmg2 Plagueburst Mortar, plus Entropy Cannons that now do D3+3 damage and a Rapid Fire 3 Rothail Volley Gun, you have a seriously dangerous vehicle that can play the long range fire support role that a Death Guard army needs. On top of this, there is a new Strat to make the Plagueburst Mortar Dmg3 and do extra MWs on units near whatever it targets.... for 1CP!! You are really down on DG Strats, but bringing a BS3+ S8 attack up to Dmg3, which can target units WITHOUT LINE OF SIGHT, is pretty amazing (just ask our Full Payload Manticore friends from the Astra Militarum).... this gives the ability to take out Plasma Inceptors, Bullgryn, Harlequin Skyweaver Jetbikes, and all kinds of dangerous 3W units even when they are hiding out of LOS. Oh, and I did I mention that the Plagueburst Crawler is still T8 and has a built in 5++... amazing toughness for a primarily fire support tank that only costs 30 points more than a Space Marine Whirlwind (or 40 points more, with dual Entrophy Cannons)

 

3 - Foetid Bloat-Drone -- This guy with a Fleshmower now puts out 12 x S7 AP-2 Dmg2 melee attacks using its improved WS3+ (don't forget, you opponent will be at -1T, thanks to Contagions), so combined with a 10" base movement and 9W at T7 3+/5++, you have the Deathguard equivalent of a "Heavy Cavalry" unit that can rush around chew up units trying too hold objectives (or just serve as a strong Counter-Assault unit lurking behind your relentlessly advancing line of Plague Marines). Oh, and btw, there is a Strat that let's FBDs Heroically Intervene 6" now... just take in the ramifications of this for a moment or two!

 

4 - Terminators (both Deathshroud and Blightlord) -- The fact that these guys gained an extra wound (3W base), +1A (always on, in place of the old Hateful Assault), went up to 5" Move, gained the new Disgustingly Resilient (amazing on a 3W profile!), and kept both T5 and their 4++ Invul (for reference, Loyalist Marines lost 4++ on their Cataphractii TDA units) makes them just unreal, far better than the "just gained +1W" credit that you give them. The only think they lost was the old DR 5+++, which is more than compensated for in basically every situation by the 3rd wound. Additionally, they gained a new Stratagem that is basically the DG equivalent of "Fury of the First," allowing them to get +1 to Hit in the Shooting or fight phases for only 1 CP. All of this for just 40 points per Blightlord and 50 points per Deathshroud... compare this to Loyalist Terminators, who are also 38 points a model... for only +2 points per model, Blightlords get T5, reduction of all incoming Dmg by -1, a 4++ Invul (versus a 5++ Invul), 3A base (Loyalist Marines get 3A on the charge only), and the -1T aura from Contagions.... a pretty ridiculous deal if you ask me.

 

 

These are just a few examples, I didn't even mention Mortarion and how amazing (and tough to kill) he is now. Bottom line, totally disagree with your assessment that there are only three good things in his Codex and the rest is horrible.

Edited January 16, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

The age of "you can only use what's in the box" has begun

 

 

 

I hate these kind of changes. It's a real   you to veteran players who spent the time and money converting. It also really feels like GW keeps pushing for everyone to have the same stuff, even down to the load outs. Not only that but mixed units with a bit of everything are rarely good, so I think ultimately it will reduce variation, creativity, experimentation and increase cookie cutter builds. That's bad for the game and the players.

 

On a personal note, all 5 of my Plague Marine squads are built as two of one weapon (with one squad being pure melee). I can ofc accommodate this change by re-organising them, but I really don't want to because it's going to make the squads less unique, less interesting and reduce their viability all at the same time.

 

 

I simultaneously agree with that the new load out restrictions are confusing and annoying while having no idea what you're on about.

 

5 man 2 blight launcher plasma gun sergeant units were the only thing you ever saw and that was only in theory. Plague marines couldn't get more cookie cutter no matter what they did.

 

They've re-balanced melee plague weapons so they're all worth taking rather than the flail being the only good one. This will not lead to units being more cookie cutter. Melee plague marine squads are still legal and more viable than ever, they just have to actually take stuff other than knives or flails.

 

I don't like the way they stopped blight launcher spam, (though I do like the nerfing to arch contaminator), but its clear that plague marine options are better balanced now and that will make unit variety more viable.

 

 

 

Even if it's just the melee options for PM that are hurt, it still feels crappy. Melee PM squads were something interesting and new and it'll be a shame if they're restricted to the point you stop seeing them.

 

For melee its 1 of each option per 5, including paired knives. You also have to have a boltgun to take a sigil/icon. So you can have a 10 man unit with 2 flails, 2 cleavers, 2 knife/axe, 2 knife pairs, champion with power fist, 1 mace/axe and be able to take on just about everything.

 

Flails are completely different, they just double your attacks (which is 6 for a plague marine since giving up a boltgun for the flail means they still have a knife so get to have 3 attacks for having two melee plague weapons) but you can get their old damage carry over rule on all melee plague weapons with a 2cp stratagem. So cleavers get 3 -1 to hit S8 attacks each dealing 1d6 damage that carries over.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Plaguecaster]

I'm extremely annoyed about the fact I can no longer take 7 man squads with multiple special weapons like I used to instead having to take 10 man strong squads

I'm extremely confused about the wording tho for all the upgrades though so am I right s

With this

Champion can take a plasma gun, squad can take a blight launcher, can take another if 10man. I can then take an additional plasma gun for every 5 models so ten man would be 2 plasma guns. Does this mean in a 10man squad we can take 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers?

Did we just get havoc / chosen loudoutsfor our plague marines?

Edited January 16, 2021 by Plaguecaster

[Marshal Loss]

I'm extremely confused about the wording tho for all the upgrades though so am I right s

With this

Champion can take a plasma gun, squad can take a blight launcher, can take another if 10man. I can then take an additional plasma gun for every 5 models so ten man would be 2 plasma guns. Does this mean in a 10man squad we can take 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers?

Yep, that's correct

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

I'm extremely confused about the wording tho for all the upgrades though so am I right s

With this

Champion can take a plasma gun, squad can take a blight launcher, can take another if 10man. I can then take an additional plasma gun for every 5 models so ten man would be 2 plasma guns. Does this mean in a 10man squad we can take 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers?

Yep, that's correct

That's pretty cool something I guess, still feels wrong as I only ran 7 man squads for fluff reasons

 

Extremely disappointed the LoV doesn't actually buff daemon engines like GW lied to us about especially since there is now no way any of our daemon engines or the like can actually benefit from any of our auras glad I didn't pick him up.

 

Also the fact Deathshroud lost their bodyguard rules is pretty damn annoying especially since that was the whole gimmick of the unit guess they don't want us protecting morty anymore since that was the whole point of the unit, I will still be taking one unit to protect my plague caster warlord though.

[Dragonlover]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

First off, no more 'well three combiplas is the best loadout but I only get one, time to somehow acquire two more when every other player is doing the same thing so it's bloody impossible' type issues.

 

Secondly you buy a box of guys, you can play the box of guys with what comes in the box of guys, and not be at a disadvantage against the people that have been playing for 30 years and never thrown a bit away. Massive boon to new players. I appreciate that this doesn't quite line up on a Plague Marine squad since they come in sevens, but the concept is sound.

 

Thirdly, it just makes sense. You want to get your stuff from sprue to table as efficiently as possible, and scrounging up the extras is just a lot of needless faff that I suspect a lot of folks just never went through and said 'ignore the weapons on the models, these guys all have combiplasmas' every game. At that point, may as well just remove the option, which among other things cuts down on memory issues for your opponent, because in theory everything in your army is WYSIWYG.

 

------------

 

On the codex itself, I'm looking forward to it. Gonna be my first proper foray into Death Guard outside of Dark Imperium demo games, and it looks like there's gonna be a lot of dials to tweak. Particularly a fan of the Foetid Virion, multiple Elites per slot is a really cool thing that they need to keep doing.

 

Dragonlover

[Squark]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

[Marshal Loss]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices. I'd have much preferred to see this be the policy for subsequent kits (e.g. EC come out with a new Terminator unit of their own where every option is accounted for in the kit) than have it invalidate some of my decisions, leaving dozens of models effectively unplayable. It's also not consistently enforced: Blightlords only have 3 swords in the box, yet the unit can have 5 as part of their stock standard loadout. If they're going to stick with this policy, then it should be applied consistently.

 

As a change for future kits, I'm 100% for it.

 

Also, we don’t know what’s coming in the campaign book later this year with as far as rules are concerned...

 

A good point! Considering it's meant to represent Typhus' forces, there could be some real treats in there. Wasn't thrilled with the idea of a supplement following a codex so closely but given that this book doesn't have any obvious or gaping flaws, bring it on

 

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

Daemon Princes do have "Lord of the Death Guard".

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Vardus]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

 

Don't have the codex but reviews I have seen/read say that they are.

[Plaguecaster]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

Only thing in our hq section that doesn't have it are plague casters and sorcerers in terminator Armour. Really wish we could've took a elite character as hq even if it was with a cp stratagem our elves section is over bloated with options whilst our hq is now severely limited

[firestorm40k]

Quick question for those in the know (e.g. with access to the Codex already :lol:) - can you have a special weapon (e.g. Plasma gun) AND a cc weapon (e.g. Plague Flail) in a 7 strong unit Plague Marine squad?

 

If not, I've just wasted that box of Plague Marines I've just built...

[Marshal Loss]

Quick question for those in the know (e.g. with access to the Codex already ) - can you have a special weapon (e.g. Plasma gun) AND a cc weapon (e.g. Plague Flail) in a 7 strong unit Plague Marine squad?

 

If not, I've just wasted that box of Plague Marines I've just built...

Yep, no problem (so long as it isn't a single marine trying to carry both a flail & a plasma gun :P)

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[BrainFireBob]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

First off, no more 'well three combiplas is the best loadout but I only get one, time to somehow acquire two more when every other player is doing the same thing so it's bloody impossible' type issues.

 

Secondly you buy a box of guys, you can play the box of guys with what comes in the box of guys, and not be at a disadvantage against the people that have been playing for 30 years and never thrown a bit away. Massive boon to new players. I appreciate that this doesn't quite line up on a Plague Marine squad since they come in sevens, but the concept is sound.

 

Thirdly, it just makes sense. You want to get your stuff from sprue to table as efficiently as possible, and scrounging up the extras is just a lot of needless faff that I suspect a lot of folks just never went through and said 'ignore the weapons on the models, these guys all have combiplasmas' every game. At that point, may as well just remove the option, which among other things cuts down on memory issues for your opponent, because in theory everything in your army is WYSIWYG.

 

------------

 

On the codex itself, I'm looking forward to it. Gonna be my first proper foray into Death Guard outside of Dark Imperium demo games, and it looks like there's gonna be a lot of dials to tweak. Particularly a fan of the Foetid Virion, multiple Elites per slot is a really cool thing that they need to keep doing.

 

Dragonlover

Two problems here: For being able to play "out of the box," what is in the box has to be worthwhile to field the unit. Not a problem with Blightlords, but not universally true.

 

Second: it's those 30 year vets you are scorning for not tossing bits- that have the bits to rip apart their existing models and give them the new restricted loadout. Sold your extra bits? You are paying through the nose, or buying a new fresh box.

 

EDIT: I should note I'm one, and just reorganized my bits, so will be giving my Blightlords combibolters again. My CSM will be massively more problematic, though.

 

Players without my bits box are in trouble, though

Edited January 16, 2021 by BrainFireBob

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

It's possible also to have an insane amount of special weapons in a PM squad; you could, in a 10 man squad, have e.g. a plasma gun on a champ, 2x blight launchers, a plague spewer, and 2x plasma guns.

 

So the changes to loadouts hurt PM players who wanted to spam axes or dual knives, and Blightlord players who took lots of combi-weapons, but it's not wholly negative: lots of incentive to take a 10 man squad now.

 

7 man or bust! I can't bring myself to take 10, it just feels so wrong.

 

Even if it's just the melee options for PM that are hurt, it still feels crappy. Melee PM squads were something interesting and new and it'll be a shame if they're restricted to the point you stop seeing them. That said I haven't seen the exact restrictions yet so maybe it's not as bad as I fear. It certainly doesn't sound as bad as the awful Karadron "You must take one of each of these completely different weapons in the squad" debacle.

 

I like the rest of what I've seen of the Codex though, so I feel positive overall.

 

 

Im just not a GW fan boy praising everything they do even if its a pile of garbage.

Some of the things coming out of people is laughable. Take the plague surgeon, SM does exactly the same thing and nobody takes him for his crappy 6+++, they take him because he can bring back a model, yet youtubers etc are going how amazing he is because he gives a 6+++

Its very frustrating when you pay 100s of £ to play a army because you like how they play and then GW decide to all over it.

 

There are 3 things in this codex that are good: Mortarion, +1 wound to marines, and the contagion ability...thats it.

If i had the choice of playing this codex or the old one I would undoutably play the old one.

DR got nerfed, HQs got nerfed, Arch contaminator nerfed, Strats got all over.

 

My main opponents are SM (white scars and blood angles), Admech, and chaos. The chaos player has 3 decimators which do mortal wounds, 12W with a 4++. On average they wipe out 10 Blight lord terminators. The admech guy has 5 of those robots which put out a load of shots. Just how exactly are you supposed to kill them? 

 

I am all up for being +ve but just what are you seeing that makes you go oh wow thats cool (other than mortarion).

 

I am seriosly trying to be +ve but every time i look im just like golly gee were GW thinking.

At 1st i thought ok take a LoC with arch contaminator and deepstrike in 10 BL terminators with combi bolters and use the strats for rapid fire 3, plague weapons, hit on 2s, VotLW. with 6s being AP-4...then i realised rapid fire 3 strat has gone. Ok, thats still 40 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding most vehicles on 4s (re-rolling), for an average of 30 wounds, 10 of which are at AP-4, ok i will take that. Oh but then i realised that the AP-4 is for combat only, So in the end, over 500 points kills 5 marines in shooting.  For half the points, i can take a CSM terminator squad, and put out 40 S8 AP-3 D2 shots....and CSM are supposed to be bad lol

 

 

I think this mindset is the same as the 8th ed to 9th Necron naysayers. You're seeing changes and having a kneejerk reaction to that. That's totally fine and you're allowed to not like how an army changes, but I do think you're missing the majority of the positives.

 

This book fundamentally changes how this army functions, plays, is built even down to how it moves. It's going to take a lot of effort to relearn and master again. We had a bottom tier rigid codex for more than 3 years at this point, change is going to be weird

[Dragonlover]

 

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices.

 

So do many other things in a new codex. A previously ubiquitous piece of wargear increasing in points to the level of non-viability would also impact people's assembly choices.

 

 

Two problems here: For being able to play "out of the box," what is in the box has to be worthwhile to field the unit. Not a problem with Blightlords, but not universally true.

 

Second: it's those 30 year vets you are scorning for not tossing bits- that have the bits to rip apart their existing models and give them the new restricted loadout. Sold your extra bits? You are paying through the nose, or buying a new fresh box.

 

EDIT: I should note I'm one, and just reorganized my bits, so will be giving my Blightlords combibolters again. My CSM will be massively more problematic, though.

 

Players without my bits box are in trouble, though

 

 

Yeah I've been around for 20-odd years myself, and still struggle to produce enough combis. Pretty sure my solution was HH packs of five of each last time I needed to do it. I wasn't scorning the hoary old veterans at all, merely pointing out that it levels the playing field a bit. Also it's not like the best loadout within the constraints on any given unit won't be found withing about an hour of the internet turning their collective gaze on the problem. There'll always be something worthwhile, even if it is just 2 plasmas backed up with a hail of bolter fire from a mid-table Plague Marine Squad or two.

 

-----------

 

Something else that intrigues me is the option of giving relics to unit champions. Is this a new thing for us or can the current Marine book do it? I'm massively out of the loop.

 

Dragonlover

[Cryptix]

I believe current space marines can give special issues relics (the ones that all successors can take) to sergeants.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices.

 

So do many other things in a new codex. A previously ubiquitous piece of wargear increasing in points to the level of non-viability would also impact people's assembly choices.

 

Point taken, but something no longer being a popular choice & a loadout being literally invalidated are two very, very different things. Option A still lets me use my models; option B forces me to either tear them apart or obtain 40 extra Blightlords to field what was previously a single 10 man squad. To imply otherwise would be incredibly disingenuous.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss