DW Captain with Xenophase Blade

[L30n1d4s]

Hopefully it stays the same when the new Supplement comes out (I believe it will, since it is included in the "base" SM Codex), but the new Xenophase Blade is pretty impressive with its S+1, AP-4, and ability to ignore all Invul saves.

 

Its greatest shortfall is that it is only Dmg1, but hoping that DW will get back their WL Trait that gives one weapon +1 Dmg. Combined with the Imperium's Sword WL Trait (again, hoping DW get the ability to give one model two WL Traits, like every other SM Chapter gets besides GKs) and you have the potential, on the charge, for a DW Captain with 6 x S6 AP-4 Dmg2 attacks, all of which ignore Invul Saves natively.

 

Even if DW don't get the +1 Dmg WL Trait back, with Imperiums Sword the Captain can still do 6 x S6 AP-4 Dmg1 attacks on the charge. Since this ignores all Invuls, this makes him quite good against Harlequins, Sisters of Battle, Daemons, Necrons with Cryptek support, and other 1W infantry that rely heavily on their Invul saves.

 

If indeed the DW Captain can get up to Dmg 2, then he would become a real threat against 2W Marines, Characters, and even light vehicles. Throw a JP and Storm Shield on him for extra mobility and durability and you have a generally effective unit across the board, I think.

[Black Knight]

Unfortunately they always ? something up, got a long list of models that should have certain weapons available but were not given them in the options. The new stats on the blade are indeed great but I am not hoping on anything until we have the book in hand. If its double the price of a normal power sword it may not be worth it, especially with how good chain fists are now.

 

Lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

Edit: I didn't dodge the curse filter, just because your definition of a bad word doesn't match where I come from doesn't mean I have to think about every word I write in case it offends someone. If we all did that we wouldn't be writing anything on the internet! If your system doesn't automatically flag a word I write then I do not expect to be labelled as "dodging" something. There was no dodging on my end and I honestly find the accusation insulting.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Black_Knight
Edit: Dodging the cursing filter

[Debauchery101]

Well I think 2 dmg would be a bit too strong. You already will basically blend through all non vehicle/monster targets. I think the theme of GWs 9th edition is to have players make choices to fill a specific role and limit the everybody killa units. Especially ones with bikes and jump packs Edited October 27, 2020 by Debauchery101

[leth]

I expect us, like all other supplements, to get mastercrafted as a relic ability. That would give us the damage 2, the main thing left would then be something to give us either more attacks or str in the warlord slots(or via might of heros). 

 

If we get some way to get damage 2? Then it will definitely have a slot.

[Black Knight]

What was the cost of the blade in the codex?

[Azaiel]

What was the cost of the blade in the codex?

Its 10pts in the SM codex.

[Irbis]

Well I think 2 dmg would be a bit too strong.

""Too strong"" when both flavors of fists have relic fists with D3, no hit penalty, and comparable AP? Never mind stuff real dedicated melee chapters get? What?

 

I sometimes wonder if DW players have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome after being beaten with terrible books too many times because of how many times I saw stuff drastically weaker than what other books get ""too strong"". I wish DW was on par with other books, or hay, even slightly weaker, just usable, but that is never going to happen when people will call pitifully weak crumbs DW gets ""too strong"" instead of complaining DW writer did awfully terrible job (starting with insane amounts of 'no bit no rule' going into 'yes bit no rule' stupidity in way too many areas in what is supposed to be the most customizable and versatile force in the galaxy) and demanding a redo

[leth]

Chill out man jesus, I get it, you are upset at GW, save it for them instead of other people on the forum. You are giving dakka posters a run for their money.

 

the marine book as a whole is too strong right now and having a damage 2 natively sword would be too powerful, especially if we could get +1 or +2 damage. We would be at nightbringer levels power. 
 

But I will leave it at that before the thread gets derailed longer. Go on another one of your negative rants and we will get back on topic. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by leth

[Debauchery101]

 

 

Well I think 2 dmg would be a bit too strong.

""Too strong"" when both flavors of fists have relic fists with D3, no hit penalty, and comparable AP? Never mind stuff real dedicated melee chapters get? What?

 

I sometimes wonder if DW players have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome after being beaten with terrible books too many times because of how many times I saw stuff drastically weaker than what other books get ""too strong"". I wish DW was on par with other books, or hay, even slightly weaker, just usable, but that is never going to happen when people will call pitifully weak crumbs DW gets ""too strong"" instead of complaining DW writer did awfully terrible job (starting with insane amounts of 'no bit no rule' going into 'yes bit no rule' stupidity in way too many areas in what is supposed to be the most customizable and versatile force in the galaxy) and demanding a redo

do you even play 40k? If you give a a guy a weapon who can reliably delete more than his points every round of combat thats the definition of imbalance. Ignoring invuls with ap-4 and str 5 to 6 depending on your warlord trait..you can also hide that within tons of wounds in a killteam just as easily.

I dont understand people like you who demand everything tobe better than everyone else. That's how we get dramatic nerfs to counter some specific thing or few things we can do that are really powerful.

[Mobius0288]

 

Well I think 2 dmg would be a bit too strong.

""Too strong"" when both flavors of fists have relic fists with D3, no hit penalty, and comparable AP? Never mind stuff real dedicated melee chapters get? What? 

 

I sometimes wonder if DW players have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome after being beaten with terrible books too many times because of how many times I saw stuff drastically weaker than what other books get ""too strong"". I wish DW was on par with other books, or hay, even slightly weaker, just usable, but that is never going to happen when people will call pitifully weak crumbs DW gets ""too strong"" instead of complaining DW writer did awfully terrible job (starting with insane amounts of 'no bit no rule' going into 'yes bit no rule' stupidity in way too many areas in what is supposed to be the most customizable and versatile force in the galaxy) and demanding a redo 

 

 

Keep it constructive folks. First and last warning for this thread.

 

 

do you even play 40k? If you give a a guy a weapon who can reliably delete more than his points every round of combat thats the definition of imbalance. Ignoring invuls with ap-4 and str 5 to 6 depending on your warlord trait..you can also hide that within tons of wounds in a killteam just as easily.

That would be my point as well, specifically ignoring invuls. With any other weapon, you have an invul to contend with... even the burning blade (turning a power sword into a relic blade) with -5 AP.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Mobius0288

[Debauchery101]

I dont understand how im the one needing to be highlighted lol. I asked a question and I had a disagreement then stated my case. When did countering what someone directs at you while quoting you become wrong?

[GrinNfool]

 

 

Well I think 2 dmg would be a bit too strong.

""Too strong"" when both flavors of fists have relic fists with D3, no hit penalty, and comparable AP? Never mind stuff real dedicated melee chapters get? What?

 

do you even play 40k? If you give a a guy a weapon who can reliably delete more than his points every round of combat thats the definition of imbalance. Ignoring invuls with ap-4 and str 5 to 6 depending on your warlord trait..you can also hide that within tons of wounds in a killteam just as easily.

I dont understand people like you who demand everything tobe better than everyone else. That's how we get dramatic nerfs to counter some specific thing or few things we can do that are really powerful.

 

While I think Irbis is being a bit dramatic here, he isn't wrong that you considering a 2 damage xenos blade (with a warlord trait mind you) is a bit silly.  The argument that a unit can reliably get its points back in 1 round making it op is also silly.  40k is chock full of units that are either glass cannons, and even those that aren't that can reliably do that.  Heck even terminators each model has a good chance to kill itsself, thus getting its points back.  I don't think a 1 of model per detachment, that you can only include once with due to warlord trait is going to break the game here, especially considering there are any number of things that can splat a captain in 1 round of shooting or combat.

 

In short, I don't think there would be anything wrong with it given numerous options available to all factions of 40k.  The game is insanely deadly, having 1 trick at the cost of a warlord trait and a 10 point weapon on a 1 of model won't damage the game.  I say this as someone usually more concerned with the health of the game than getting a cool unit.  This wouldn't even be a must include if it was doable IMHO.  Still rather have a gravis cpt.

Edited October 27, 2020 by GrinNfool

[Qui-Gon]

A S6 AP -4 2 damage xenophase blade on a first born captain whose best mobility is a jump pack, 5 wounds, a 2+/4++ and at most 6 attacks on the charge (if I'm not missing anything) that cannot natively re-roll 1s to hit in melee against anything that isn't a xenos is not going to destroy the game. He will run in, kill at most 6 models, maybe another character, and then get squished in the counter melee and/or shooting from a fall back and focus fire. Treating this like this is the end of the game is incredibly short sighted.

 

However, doesn't mean I'm not tempted to run one myself. Thing's FINALLY cool after 2 editions of being outright crap. Half tempted to take one on every sergeant I can because ignoring invuls on a 3A base model is nothing to sneeze at. I'm happy to see that its good at last.

[leth]

A tactical mis-play is not a solid counter argument to what is a statistical or non-argument. 

 

"I put my unit in this army because it can sit on X backfield objective and is relatively cheap for that purpose." "Well if you dont screen, dont put anything else in your army, your opponent takes 300 points of melee beatstick, and you leave nothing else in your backfield then they can take the objective from you" "Well if they invest that much, and I screw up that much, it would be kinda sad if they couldnt." 

 

The difference is that with no invuls, it removes counters.  There is zero counter play. No armor saves, no invuls, no special rules. It removes variability from the equation, and anytime you remove variability it is significantly more powerful in a game that relies on very few dice rolls overall to determine the outcome. How many times has a game been decided by a string of lucky 6s or unlucky ones? 

 

So while I dont agree that it would be overpowered, I certainly wouldnt call someone silly or insult their intelligence for thinking it could be.

 

If the xenophase blade gets the ability to get to 2 or 3 damage then it will become a very VERY powerful option being one of the few abilities in the game that can ignore invuls. Marines can still stack quite a lot of buffs on a single character.  Might of heros, I think there is a chaplain aura, etc.  

Edited October 27, 2020 by leth

[GrinNfool]

A tactical mis-play is not a solid counter argument to what is a statistical or non-argument. 

 

"I put my unit in this army because it can sit on X backfield objective and is relatively cheap for that purpose." "Well if you dont screen, dont put anything else in your army, your opponent takes 300 points of melee beatstick, and you leave nothing else in your backfield then they can take the objective from you" "Well if they invest that much, and I screw up that much, it would be kinda sad if they couldnt." 

 

The difference is that with no invuls, it removes counters.  There is zero counter play. No armor saves, no invuls, no special rules. It removes variability from the equation, and anytime you remove variability it is significantly more powerful in a game that relies on very few dice rolls overall to determine the outcome. How many times has a game been decided by a string of lucky 6s or unlucky ones? 

 

So while I dont agree that it would be overpowered, I certainly wouldnt call someone silly or insult their intelligence for thinking it could be.

 

If the xenophase blade gets the ability to get to 2 or 3 damage then it will become a very VERY powerful option being one of the few abilities in the game that can ignore invuls. Marines can still stack quite a lot of buffs on a single character.  Might of heros, I think there is a chaplain aura, etc.  

Hmm didn't intend what I said to come across that way so just to be clear I wasn't calling debauch silly, I said the concern that a s5 sword that ignores invulns and does 2 damage that only works on a single captain, that requies the commitment of a 1 of model and a warlord trait was silly.  As you said yourself its not going to break the game.  As far as counters to it, 2+ save would still net a 6+ assuming not in assault, a 1+ (from SS or something else) would give a 5+, FNP still works, and last this is s5 here, so high toughness would also be a functional counter to it.  A string of lucky dice can always happen with anything of course,  I mean I've seen a swarmlord fail 7 3++ in combat in 1 round, things happen its dice, but equally I've seen people make 4 6+ saves in a row too.  Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to see ignore invuln weapons and abilities become common place, but I think if they were going to be in the game the xenophase blade is fine, as you are paying double points for a power sword in a lot of fights, its availability is quite limited, and the only one thats truly scary is the 2 damage variant which would be limited to a single captain using a warlord trait, which we don't even know exists at present.  Really in the grand scheme of 40k I don't see all imperial players rushing to field a patrol of DW just to bring a xenophase blade captain, like people would for the old smash captains.

Edited October 27, 2020 by GrinNfool

[Debauchery101]

I only disagree with the sword being a baseline 2 dmg weapon. Because if you can then boost it to 3dmg then its beyond really strong.

Would i use it? Yes...I play competitively most of the time. Especially vs harlequins. But I know it would be broken.

 

I really feel at the moment people are only focusing on marine vs marine. Which is also based on incomplete options because no one has a full supplement.

You want your marines to be better than or as good as the others. I get it but look how that is towards any other faction

Edited October 27, 2020 by Debauchery101

[GrinNfool]

I only disagree with the sword being a baseline 2 dmg weapon. Because if you can then boost it to 3dmg then its beyond really strong.

Would i use it? Yes...I play competitively most of the time. Especially vs harlequins. But I know it would be broken.

 

I really feel at the moment people are only focusing on marine vs marine. Which is also based on incomplete options because no one has a full supplement.

You want your marines to be better than or as good as the others. I get it but look how that is towards any other faction

Ah gotcha, its only baseline 1 damage, not 2.  Goes to 2 with a warlord trait, which is why I am non plussed by this.

 

Also I play harlequins and honestly the xenophase doesn't bother me, its 10 point sword, most of the time normal marines punching harlequins are going to kill them anyways, its a little scary on a captain trying to hunt down my shadowseer or troupemaster, but honestly if I know you have it I can play around it with positioning forcing you to suicide or just getting the charge on you and killing the captain.

Edited October 27, 2020 by GrinNfool

[leth]

And you said it right there “it forces you to play around it”.

 

This edition isn’t about killing, it’s about board control. If a weapon on my captain forces someone to move differently than they would with a different weapon? It has already paid for itself. 
 

most characters are just there as buff sticks(outside of space wolves, holy crap they can kill) and so anything else is a bonus. 
 

I strongly recommend people watch Nick Nanavatis video on how to counter space marines, it shows a lot of the mistakes people are making as a result of bringing a 8th edition mentality to their lists and play style. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by leth

[Black Knight]

I'm sorry but did something change? The sword doesn't ignore Invulves, it tells the defender to reroll. That's completely different, a re-roll still means the defender gets the invulve but at a slightly lower chance.(Cant' find updated info on the blade so please tell me if it has changed)

 

Also wasn't the original argument a trait to increase the blade to 2dmg and not base. If you think a 2dmg weapon is overpowered then I believe there are multiple examples right now that argue against that. Four damage Thunder hammers on Blackshields for one.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Black_Knight

[Debauchery101]

I'm sorry but did something change? The sword doesn't ignore Invulves, it tells the defender to reroll. That's completely different, a re-roll still means the defender gets the invulve but at a slightly lower chance.

it ignores them

[Black Knight]

Can you point me in the direction of the data sheet for this please, I cannot find it anywhere.

[Valdr Fell-fist]

It appears on the Datasheet for Captains, pg. 129 of the new Space Marine Codex, with a note that it is only available to Captains from the Deathwatch.

It appears on the Datasheet for Captains, pg. 129 of the new Space Marine Codex, with a note that it is only available to Captains from the Deathwatch.

[Black Knight]

Thank you both, if it is only for captains now I would be ok with it being 2 base damage even if that allows it to become 3 damage later.

[Lemondish]

Thank you both, if it is only for captains now I would be ok with it being 2 base damage even if that allows it to become 3 damage later.

According to the free Index rules released earlier in the month, Watch Sergeants and Veteran Biker Sergeants can also equip it.

 

I don't expect that will change with the Supplement release, but we'll know soon enough.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Lemondish

[Qui-Gon]

They aren't going to remove it from a Veteran squad's watch sergeant. The model comes with the blade on the front of the box.