Wishlist for a supplement

[Medjugorje]

yeah. If our champion dont kill the opponent then he will die for sure. Especially how strong some of other characters can be now.

The main changes I want to have is an 3++ in combat and d3 damage sword which is flat 3 against characters and monsters

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Challenge was one of the worst game mechanics in 7th edition.

[Medjugorje]

really? I loved it. There were possibilties to abuse that...

[Banjulhu]

Challenge only resulted in a few scenarios.
Combat Wombat vs Combat Wombat.
Space Marine Sgt vs Space Marine Sgt
Unit champs not throwing 2 basic attacks at an IC.

It was a nice thematic rule that was a pile of boring tripe mechanically.

[Guest Triszin]

emperors champ

- Makes character and monsters fight last (that he is in engagement range with)

- If in engagement range with a character/monster and other enemy models (troops, elites, etc)

-- EC Must allocate ALL his attacks against a character or monster

- IF the EC is slain, before EC can fight, and is in engagement range of a character//monster may fight as though he were in his standard fight phase

 

- 4+ invlun

- 5+ FNP to mortal wounds aura from psykic attacks

 

MC Heavy bolt pistol

sword

+3 str, -4 ap, D2+2 against characters//monsters, + 3 attacks on the charge

 

-------

bad Idea i know

Edited March 29, 2021 by Triszin

[Medjugorje]

he is in some terms weaker in his statlines as his current profile..

the EC now have Str8 5+++ is a part of the Black Templar Chapter Tactic. 

Fight last is a really really strong mechanic and would be nice.

 

I hope the black sword gain d3 or 1+d3 damage weapon which is always flat 3 or 4 damage against characters or monsters.

Then I hope that he will get a3++ in combat because he normally is very short lived and always fight in the fight phase even he dies before he is chosen to fight.

 

And of course i want him to get Vows. Not like an aura,.. no ---> I want that as special rule for the entire army like it used to be in 4th edition and what makes sense in the lore.

[redmapa]

Personally I think the EC is ok, sure he could use a buff in his killyness but I think what he really needs is some utility, some sort of aura or debuff or something. A rule I would like it to have is the one that Dante gets where once per game you can use an Epic Deed strat on him for free.

 

If we do get our supplement then I do hope Vows make a come back, Dark Angels got Inner Circle, Blood Angels got Death Visions and Space Wolves got something? I cant remember what, is it sagas? Whatever, we could use some sort of army buff similar to those and Vows are that, besides it is kind of fishy only Abhor the Witch is a strat when Vigilus gave us more of our Vows back in as strats, why weren't they given back in PA? Im calling it that they are being brought back but not as stratagems.

[Tokugawa]

The ways of bring EC to competitive stage:

 

1. redo the vows and give him abilities which buff nearby units/debuff enemy units. But if he have an aura ability, that is too identical to chaplains. Maybe something like "pick a visible enemy character or monster model in 24",friendly templars units get blablablah "is more viable.

2. make his profile a very undercosted melee machine(e.g. Drazhar).

 

Currently EC just can't compete with other HQ options. The problem is not whether EC is good at his cost. The problem is we only have ~3 HQ slots.

[Medjugorje]

I think if he has an aura buff which is good, we would never use him as he should be - just there for killing characters.

His buff should be armywide and should not depend on and how his model stands or even live anymore.

He should give us a buff and then on his own mission. If he had a buff then the competitve way to play him would be just stand behind units. That would be very bad. But he really need anything which stands out from a buff char.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The ways of bring EC to competitive stage:

 

1. redo the vows and give him abilities which buff nearby units/debuff enemy units. But if he have an aura ability, that is too identical to chaplains. Maybe something like "pick a visible enemy character or monster model in 24",friendly templars units get blablablah "is more viable.

I think if he has an aura buff which is good, we would never use him as he should be - just there for killing characters.

His buff should be armywide and should not depend on and how his model stands or even live anymore.

Idea: The Emperor's Champion gives nearby allies bonus Attacks and/or the ability to reroll To Hit and/or To Wound rolls, to show how his presence inspires allies to fight harder- regardless if these allies are Templars or not, as he's the EMPEROR'S Champion, and not merely the Chapter Champion. That should be useful for killing enemies. Edited April 7, 2021 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Medjugorje]

 

The ways of bring EC to competitive stage:

 

1. redo the vows and give him abilities which buff nearby units/debuff enemy units. But if he have an aura ability, that is too identical to chaplains. Maybe something like "pick a visible enemy character or monster model in 24",friendly templars units get blablablah "is more viable.

I think if he has an aura buff which is good, we would never use him as he should be - just there for killing characters.

His buff should be armywide and should not depend on and how his model stands or even live anymore.

Idea: The Emperor's Champion gives nearby allies bonus Attacks and/or the ability to reroll To Hit and/or To Wound rolls, to show how his presence inspires allies to fight harder- regardless if these allies are Templars or not, as he's the EMPEROR'S Champion, and not merely the Chapter Champion. That should be useful for killing enemies.

 

but with that awesome buff - I would never go to kill a enemy character. I would to try him stay safe behind any other units just to buff them. This kind of buff would be the opposite.

 

He should give an armywide bonus and in the game no kind of aura buff. Really, think about it.

[Brother Kraskor]

The EC isn't a leader, though. An example yes, but not a leader, they shouldn't be giving buffs imo. But there should be some reward for him doing what he should (killing HQs and monsters).

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree, but if he doesn't get any aura buffs, he should probably move to the Elite slot.

[Medjugorje]

He could cost less or get a Stratagem which we cost 0CP and gain 2/3 CP for slaying enemy characters. 

 

Best thing would be an upgrade for the EC: the whole army get rules in addition (like in 4th eiditon)

 

+20 points: destroy the witch ( each BT unit gain 4+++ in the Psychic phase and the stratagem cost nothing or on 2+ a psychic power is ignored)

+50 points: uphold the honor of the emperor ( each unit in that army gains the Obsec rule and units who already have this special rule count as 2 models)

+35 points: suffer not the unclean to live ( on a 6 to wound the damage characterstic is +1)

+50 points: accept any challenge, no matter the odds (in the fight phase all negative modifier are ignored and each 6 to wound is a mortal wound in addition to any other damage, the unit cannot produce more wounds than models in their own unit)

 

The emperors  champion must be included in any Black Templars army list if the whole army does include only units with the Black Templars keyword except fortifications ..... if 1250 points but then doesnt need an force org slot.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

 

The ways of bring EC to competitive stage:

 

1. redo the vows and give him abilities which buff nearby units/debuff enemy units. But if he have an aura ability, that is too identical to chaplains. Maybe something like "pick a visible enemy character or monster model in 24",friendly templars units get blablablah "is more viable.

I think if he has an aura buff which is good, we would never use him as he should be - just there for killing characters.

His buff should be armywide and should not depend on and how his model stands or even live anymore.

Idea: The Emperor's Champion gives nearby allies bonus Attacks and/or the ability to reroll To Hit and/or To Wound rolls, to show how his presence inspires allies to fight harder- regardless if these allies are Templars or not, as he's the EMPEROR'S Champion, and not merely the Chapter Champion. That should be useful for killing enemies.

but with that awesome buff - I would never go to kill a enemy character. I would to try him stay safe behind any other units just to buff them. This kind of buff would be the opposite.

 

He should give an armywide bonus and in the game no kind of aura buff. Really, think about it.

Good point. How about having the Emperor's Champion grant his army +1 Attack and +1" Movement in each Turn, but the Attack and Movement bonuses will be lost if the Champion fails to attack an enemy in a Turn, forcing players to "use it or lose it"?

[SirJyo]

I think the champion should remain an independent beatstick, his one purpose to put a hurt on any enemy character, it's not as good game wise but it's incredibly flavorful, maybe just fix by paying a cp to include him as an elites choice.

My opponent's will do whatever they can to keep the monster away from their HQs, and that's perfect.

 

Part of me also hopes we don't get a primaris Helbrecht, I'd rather we get a primaris Draco on his excommunicated penance crusade. An unconventional captain.

Give him something weird like skillful parry, units fight last but twice, or units get to consolidate even if they didn't participate in the fight phase.

[Medjugorje]

Or a special rule which says: If your Army include a EC then you get +2 CP or something else.

[Brother Kraskor]

I agree, but if he doesn't get any aura buffs, he should probably move to the Elite slot.

 

Yeah he would suit an Elite slot actually! Or alternatively a compulsory HQ but doesn't take up a slot (we can dream!). 

[Medjugorje]

NO. He shouldnt take any slot. He act alone in his own mission. 

[Brother Sidonius]

Seems everyone agrees that the Emperor's Champion shouldn't have take a Force Org slot so hopefully GW comes to the same conclusion.

 

NO. He shouldnt take any slot. He act alone in his own mission. 

The Emperor's Champion acting alone on his mission is an awesome image but I think the best thing GW could do with him in the supplement is return to the old lore of every crusade having an Emperor's Champion then give us the freedom to make him fight the way we want him to. Remove the Named Character curse and give us a bunch of options and Vows to choose from to make him the ultimate beat stick, buff bot or something in between.

 

Also, I've been working more at adding Challenges to 9th ed and I've come up with an idea that's at least functional. It's in my Open Play Black Templars rules if anyone's interested.

 

SLAYER OF CHAMPIONS:

At the start of the Fight phase, if this Warlord is not already in a Challenge, it can declare a Challenge against a Character model within 6”. Your opponent then chooses whether to accept the Challenge.

• If the Challenge is accepted, remove the challenged model and set it up again so that it is touching this Warlord, or as close to it as you can if this is not possible. While within Engagement Range of each other, both models are considered to be in a Challenge. A model in a Challenge cannot make a Fallback move and is the only eligible target for attacks made by the other model in the Challenge.
• If the Challenge is not accepted, this Warlord immediately performs a Heroic Intervention then fights.

[Banjulhu]

 

Seems everyone agrees that the Emperor's Champion shouldn't have take a Force Org slot so hopefully GW comes to the same conclusion.

 

NO. He shouldnt take any slot. He act alone in his own mission. 

The Emperor's Champion acting alone on his mission is an awesome image but I think the best thing GW could do with him in the supplement is return to the old lore of every crusade having an Emperor's Champion then give us the freedom to make him fight the way we want him to. Remove the Named Character curse and give us a bunch of options and Vows to choose from to make him the ultimate beat stick, buff bot or something in between.

 

Also, I've been working more at adding Challenges to 9th ed and I've come up with an idea that's at least functional. It's in my Open Play Black Templars rules if anyone's interested.

 

SLAYER OF CHAMPIONS:

At the start of the Fight phase, if this Warlord is not already in a Challenge, it can declare a Challenge against a Character model within 6”. Your opponent then chooses whether to accept the Challenge.

• If the Challenge is accepted, remove the challenged model and set it up again so that it is touching this Warlord, or as close to it as you can if this is not possible. While within Engagement Range of each other, both models are considered to be in a Challenge. A model in a Challenge cannot make a Fallback move and is the only eligible target for attacks made by the other model in the Challenge.
• If the Challenge is not accepted, this Warlord immediately performs a Heroic Intervention then fights.

 

What does that rule achieve?

 

If the challenge is refused the EC would get to make a 3" move into melee that it would likely already be allowed to make anyway so there is little reason for the opponent to accept a challenge unless it knows it can beat the EC.

[Medjugorje]

I think thats should show the EC when the coward dont accept the challenge then he gets even angrier and push 3" toward the enemy I think.

[Banjulhu]

But if he was already within 3" of an enemy he would have been doing a heroic intervention anyway and if there is no enemy within 3" he gains nothing as he still wont be in melee doing something useful.

[Brother Sidonius]

You're thinking too small brothers! A Challenge is a more serious ultimatum than it first appears. 

 

The outcome of your opponent accepting the Challenge is simple: their character is forced into a combat with your Emperor's Champion. Great for you but terrible for your opponent, especially because you can choose who you Challenge and you can declare a Challenge at the start of your opponent's Fight phase as well as your own.

 

If your opponent does not accept the Challenge however, your Emperor's Champion can make a 3" Heroic Intervention move then FIGHTS. And because a Challenge happens at the beginning of the Fight phase, he gets to fight before any units that charged or even units that have a "always fights first" rule. And when he fights he can pile in 3". If you stack him with Devout Push you could have your Emperor's Champion make a 9" 12" move! and potentially get into combat with the challenged model anyway.

 

Now that I think about it, being able to Heroically Intervene before fighting might be too much but I think you get the picture. It gives your opponent a difficult choice to make.

 

Edit: With Devout Push you'd actually be able to move 3" + 3" + 6" for a total of 12" at the start of the Fight phase before fighting so I think I'm going to remove the Heroic Intervention rule so that the Emperor's Champion doesn't teleport across the board if someone doesn't accept his Challenge.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Brother Sidonius

[Medjugorje]

I think there could be simpler things like this:

 

Stratagem: "No Escape, a bloody way paves his duty"

1CP

 

If a enemy character is withing 12" of your EC, then put a straight line between your EC and this character modell. Put the EC modell into engagement range of this enemy character and each unit this modell passed get d3 Mortal wounds.