How good are Invader ATVs?

[Mandragola]

I'm trying to decide if I like our new bike/buggy thing.

 

I think they're an interesting unit. The stats compare very well with stuff like land speeders. They're the most wounds that an Apothecary can resurrect, though not actually the most expensive model (which would be a Devastator Centurion I think).

 

On the other hand they have a pretty major downside in that they're not Core. So no rerolls and a bunch of strats and other things won't work on them.

 

This amounts to a major reduction in firepower for a unit, especailly when compared to stuff like eradicators, attack bikes and melta devastators. All of those are much cheaper per model as well as being Core, but none of them can move 14".

 

What do you think, and have you tried one of these out yet?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m planning to purchase two for my new Templar army.

[Kallas]

[...] when compared to stuff like [...], attack bikes and melta devastators. All of those are much cheaper per model as well as being Core, but none of them can move 14".

 

You've actually missed the unit that compares extremely favourably to the Invaders. Big shout out to Captain Idaho, who's been championing them - Multi-melta Attack Bikes are slotted in quite nicely to compare with both Invaders and Eradicators.

1. They've got comparable firepower (as much Melta firepower as an Eradicator plus Bolters; same volume as an Invader, albeit with less powerful Bolters)
2. They're tougher than an Eradicator per model and roughly equivalent in cost; Invaders are tougher per model, but cost substantially more (almost twice as much)
3. They're just as fast as Invaders, making them way faster than Eradicators
4. Unlike Invaders they are Core and so can receive a whole load of buffs
5. One can be included in a Bike squad, to give both units more versatility or make a strong, four-man unit

I haven't gotten any table time with either unit, because I hate the Invader's model with intense passion; and I don't like the Attack Bike much either so I'm searching for a good conversion option for the Attack Bike - but I am definitely planning on making myself six Attack Bikes.

 

For 275pts you can get 5 Multi-melta Attack Bikes. For 20pts less you can get 3 Invaders.

The Invaders do actually have more wounds, but the Bikes have more 'packets' as well as more options for deployment (you could have two squads or three, depending on what you want to do), and the Bikes simply have more firepower (5 MM [10 shots] plus 5 Twin Bolters [20 shots] vs 3 MM [6 shots] and 3 Twin ABRs [18 shots])

 

I personally expect the Apothecary-ATV revival to get nerfed in some fashion (possibly a direct ATV/Stratagem nerf, or through points, not sure) but it seems like either an oversight, or a bad attempt to make the God-Emperor awful models more appealing, so I personally am not putting much stock into that tactic!

[Dracos]

Kallas The ideas you share from Cpt. Idaho are perfectly valid though. The issue is we as a community get into alone set of this compared to that is A) OP or B) Is the worst thing since [insert unit here].

 

Units need to be addressed in accordance to how they fit into an armies overall doctrine. That doctrine might different by faction, by player or both. Comparing things point for point is short sighted in that it often it seems to not appropriately take into account mobility, durability, or other factors that might make it important in a particular build.

 

That said. I think if I’m buying a model just for cool factor I’d pass on the Invader. I like the concept but I wish they’d kept the purpose of the inspiration in mind and made it a Phobos unit that could recon and was less durable. It would have made an interesting vehicle to use alongside Incursors and Invictors.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Dracos

[WrathOfTheLion]

I haven't tried one out yet, but I have one for my Ravenwing and I might pick up more. Will need to test it out in some games when I get a few in, but will probably wait for the supplement.

 

I think the model is fine in person, the biggest issue I have with it is actually how static the pose is. I've changed it up some with some cutting and gluing with a pintle weapon handle from a stubber.

 

For rules, I think that the attack bike will probably end up more efficient. Not certain how viable the apothecary thing is for most SM, think the only reliable exploitation will be by BA or DA, with Sanguinary Priest/JP and RW Apothecary respectively. Not much point in investing in a fast platform if the apothecary can't keep up. I wouldn't count on that ability persisting, although it could, depending on if it actually causes a lot of trouble. If in Jan/Feb BA and DA with the most applicable apothecaries aren't causing a big problem with it, then it might stay, otherwise they may do a wound cap or something.

Edited November 5, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Mandragola]

 

[...] when compared to stuff like [...], attack bikes and melta devastators. All of those are much cheaper per model as well as being Core, but none of them can move 14".

 

You've actually missed the unit that compares extremely favourably to the Invaders. Big shout out to Captain Idaho, who's been championing them - Multi-melta Attack Bikes are slotted in quite nicely to compare with both Invaders and Eradicators.

1. They've got comparable firepower (as much Melta firepower as an Eradicator plus Bolters; same volume as an Invader, albeit with less powerful Bolters)
2. They're tougher than an Eradicator per model and roughly equivalent in cost; Invaders are tougher per model, but cost substantially more (almost twice as much)
3. They're just as fast as Invaders, making them way faster than Eradicators
4. Unlike Invaders they are Core and so can receive a whole load of buffs
5. One can be included in a Bike squad, to give both units more versatility or make a strong, four-man unit

I haven't gotten any table time with either unit, because I hate the Invader's model with intense passion; and I don't like the Attack Bike much either so I'm searching for a good conversion option for the Attack Bike - but I am definitely planning on making myself six Attack Bikes.

 

For 275pts you can get 5 Multi-melta Attack Bikes. For 20pts less you can get 3 Invaders.

The Invaders do actually have more wounds, but the Bikes have more 'packets' as well as more options for deployment (you could have two squads or three, depending on what you want to do), and the Bikes simply have more firepower (5 MM [10 shots] plus 5 Twin Bolters [20 shots] vs 3 MM [6 shots] and 3 Twin ABRs [18 shots])

 

I personally expect the Apothecary-ATV revival to get nerfed in some fashion (possibly a direct ATV/Stratagem nerf, or through points, not sure) but it seems like either an oversight, or a bad attempt to make the God-Emperor awful models more appealing, so I personally am not putting much stock into that tactic!

That's very interesting. I actually only added attack bikes as kind of an afterthought, then forgot to remove the bit about the 14" move.

 

So I guess attack bikes do most of the things I'd want invaders to do. That's interesting. They actually have significantly more firepower from their meltas once you factor in being Core. A 165 point unit of 3 melta attack bikes is well worth considering. Shame you can't actually have a unit of 5!

 

Attack bikes would be extra good for me as Fists because Legacy of Dorn applies - which it doesn't with Eradicators. I could even use the "every doctrine" strat on them in later turns and get a pretty significant boost to output, though I think I'm more likely to use that on a Redemptor.

 

Ok so attack bikes are great. Does that mean invaders are completely overshadowed, or is there still a role for them?

 

I should probably declare an interest. I own three invaders, still in their boxes. I've got various options of what to do with them, including selling them (I've got so many other projects!) and potentially even converting them into attack bikes. An attack bike with a guy stood up at the back could be fun, if I could make the thing into a trike. It would probably want to be made a bit shorter and narrower, somehow.

 

What do you reckon I should do?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think the ATV looks fantastic .

[Dracos]

Possibly has a use to shoot the ObSec units dead using Gatling Cannon?

 

Make a fast and durable enough unit to Deploy Scramblers and Engage on All Fronts.?

Edited November 5, 2020 by Dracos

[Mandragola]

Ok that’s interesting. You’re suggesting that maybe they’re a good Gatling platform, even if they aren’t a very good melta one. Hmm.

 

They do have 14 shots I guess, all typically at ap-1. I’m just not sure I see that as particularly impactful. People aren’t holding objectives with 5 GEQs nowadays, as it’s such an important job. Firing an invader at something like Primaris isn’t likely to accomplish an awful lot. I think you’d usually be better off with the melta actually, at anything from a marine upwards.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Mandragola

[Karhedron]

I haven't tried ATVs yet but I can confirm that 3 MM attack bikes are very strong in 9th. I play BAs so I was able to have a Jump Pack Sanguinary Priest keep up with them. I ran them on the flank to my opponent would struggle to bring lots of firepower to bear on them. He did mange to kill one and wound another so I promptly healed and then resurrected in the following turn to bring them back to full health.

 

The attack bikes have been working well enough for me that I don't feel the need to invest in any ATVs at the moment. I think the OGC ATV may be the better as this is a role the Attack Bike can't do nearly so well. However whether a particular army needs extra chaff clearing power will depend on what else you are running. I normally find ABR Intercessors fill my horde clearing niche quite well and have ObjSec but YMMV.

[Mandragola]

I've opened up one of the invader kits. It's actually a very nicely made model, especially for something that's supposedly ETB.

 

I don't think the detail on the buggy itself suffers at all from being ETB. The crew do a bit though. The driver's legs are sunk into the seat well and the it's a real shame the gunner's pose is so fixed. However, I think the gun's handles match those from the various Primaris pintle weapons, so some arm swaps should be possible. The most irritating thing is that the gunner's feet are moulded onto the floor where he stands, which will make it really hard to replace him with another model.

 

The nice thing about the buggy is that all the wheels are complete, which makes them useful for conversions. I'm considering converting these into trikes to count as attack bikes and it looks like that could be done. The challenge will be not making the thing much longer than it already is. That's what would happen if I tried to match up the back half of an invader with the front of an outrider, for example.

[Riddlesworth]

I like the model

 

Attack bikes are more efficient in the melta configs. Redemptors are better in the dakka config.

 

You wouldn't run more than 1 unit as they are easily shut down but being tagged in combat (1 unit can get a strat, or you could play ultramarines)

 

They're decent. The apothecary thing makes them good but unless BA or DA makes them static.

 

The thing stopping me from taking them is fast attack slot. Outriders only being 3 per unit means I'm running 2 units. If they were 3-6, I'd be running 5 and trading out some eradicators for ATVs

[Mandragola]

I've started my conversion attempt to turn an invader into a trike, to count as an attack bike. It's not too simple, sadly, but if interested you can see my progress so far at http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353527-mandragolas-crimson-fists/?p=5628577.

 

As for the actual invaders, I'm afraid I don't think they "get there", as people seem to say. They just don't have particularly good output for their cost, partly due to not being core. I think they lose out to stuff like attack bikes, eradicators, and plasmaceptors without really finding a niche of their own. I think there might be a use for taking one, probably armed with OGC, to skulk around the edges and shoot up troops, but that taking units of 3 as a main combat unit probably isn't the way to go.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The invader is in a weird spot. Its biggest strengths are durability and speed, but we're in the midst of the most lethal edition of 40k. Because of that I think they're decent but not pushed. I suspect will mainly see them in all primaris forces.

[Debauchery101]

Well how 1 guy I know plays is just using them as a 3 unit turret squad backed by a chief Apothecary and 2 shield vets..418 points of pain in the ass multi melta spam. Its not the most effective thing but fits my friend playing imperial fists.

 

I'm pretty sure they are going to get nerfed or the apothecary strats will get an exception for these

[Swordsman]

After have got the model I’m my hands, I Can say it is very nice, maybe il try to get a little modification adding some suspensions, thinking about it.

 

Regarding the rules, it is a solid unit I can see a good use both for my ultras and Fists.

 

In general it is a very resistant unit with 3 t6 w8 units that can get transhuman physiology, even more if you can give them 5++ and /or 6+++ fnp

 

With ultras they can redeploy and keep dev doctrine via stratagem, and as per chapter tactic can fall back and shoot.

 

With fists the chapter tactic is very effective with both Gatling and autobolt.

With stratagems they can get : 6+++, 2+, +1 vs vehicle. Tor can give the Bs 2.

 

If you think that a 3 man unit can unleash 24 S5 AP -1 shots plus 18 autobolt shot, and until nerf be resurrected fo 0 CP by a chief Apothecary, we got a very solid and mobile firebase excellent for taking and holding objective and score secondaries (like EOAF).

Edited November 10, 2020 by Swordsman

[Hiroitchi]

The way I use them is to harass enemy lines and try to blow something up significantly. I find some enjoyment in after moving them, I shoot, then I charge, fall back next turn, use my strat of hit-and-run and then charge again. Lol

[Gryphonne]

The Invader ATV is quite solid; but in my opinion works best as IH and as a squad of three. I’ve been very impressed with them so far.

 

Iron hands give them much needed re rolls from the dev doctrine and really beef their survivability. A squad of three can get transhuman for 1 CP which is insane. They can get skilled riders for 1 CP which further buffs their survivability; if they’ve moved. In fact, you can keep giving them re rolls with the IH dev doctrine strat for 1 CP all game long. I run a squad of three with MMs and they perform quite well for me either as a distraction carnifex/objective grabber. They require an insane amount of firepower to clear when transhuman or skilled riders (or both) are active.

[Mandragola]

The Invader ATV is quite solid; but in my opinion works best as IH and as a squad of three. I’ve been very impressed with them so far.

 

Iron hands give them much needed re rolls from the dev doctrine and really beef their survivability. A squad of three can get transhuman for 1 CP which is insane. They can get skilled riders for 1 CP which further buffs their survivability; if they’ve moved. In fact, you can keep giving them re rolls with the IH dev doctrine strat for 1 CP all game long. I run a squad of three with MMs and they perform quite well for me either as a distraction carnifex/objective grabber. They require an insane amount of firepower to clear when transhuman or skilled riders (or both) are active.

That's interesting. It looks like Iron Hands give them a really serious boost to both output and survivability. My Fists don't have access to a comparable devastator doctrine strat unfortunately, and it wouldn't give rerolls anyway. 24 wounds with transhuman on and -1 to hit is pretty serious.

 

So maybe this is a unit that works well for some chapters but less so for others. There's nothing wrong with that.