Jorin Helm-splitter Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Yeah Tiggy does benefit more in 9th, but the rest of the characters are pretty useless. Guilliman is OK as he does offer some unique abilities now, but needs a point drop. I think in general primarchs do better in tournaments than they do in normal games. Your regular opponents know your tendencies, and have the ability to tweak their lists based on your fraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Yeah Tiggy does benefit more in 9th, but the rest of the characters are pretty useless. Guilliman is OK as he does offer some unique abilities now, but needs a point drop. I think in general primarchs do better in tournaments than they do in normal games. Your regular opponents know your tendencies, and have the ability to tweak their lists based on your fraction. Oh man, my regular opponent literally uses a different faction and list every game; I tweak a unit every few games. Coupled with my absence for the latter half of 8th I feel at a bit of a disadvantage whenever I'm not against a marine list lol. Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 UM and WS could very well do with a nerf indeed, since they are the clear top of the crop of marine chapters and of the overall 40k meta. You see, I don't know if you're joking, trolling or are ignorant. The UM are no-where near the top of the Meta, or the power of any of the chapters. Making such a statement is factually incorrect. I like to think I keep a close eye on the tournament scene along with fellow players in Indy here. UM are in the mid space marine tier is the common perception. Same with Raven Guard. With right pilot either can be really good. Just we are behind on the synergy of the top two with out Strats, Doctrine and CT. Still better off than Iron Hands and Imperial Fist though. I’m excited to see what BT are going to get. I might be a dedicated Son of Corax but I could see shaking my 15 Assault Intercessors, 10 Bladeguard and 15 Aggressors in a BT style heavy list for some fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AenarIT Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 I was commenting on the basis of the 40kstats data that the Goonhammer guys use. Ultramarines are top of the crop currently and there's enough data to confirm it. The Falcon, the guy who's behind all this stat-collecting effort on 40k, said it a couple of weeks ago on a podcast (don't remember which, either The Honest Wargamer one or one of those that appear on the Frontline Gaming Network) and reiterated it on the Metawatch warcom article that there's plenty of games for the results to be statistically significant (6000+ games analyzed). Marshal Loss and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) I was commenting on the basis of the 40kstats data that the Goonhammer guys use. Ultramarines are top of the crop currently and there's enough data to confirm it. The Falcon, the guy who's behind all this stat-collecting effort on 40k, said it a couple of weeks ago on a podcast (don't remember which, either The Honest Wargamer one or one of those that appear on the Frontline Gaming Network) and reiterated it on the Metawatch warcom article that there's plenty of games for the results to be statistically significant (6000+ games analyzed). There's not enough data, just a few events in which they have done well in during the last month. It's easy to skew the data when there's less of it. I can tell you that they've had a win rate below 50% for the last year and prior to the lockdowns. They are better now in some ways, but the improvements come from the core codex and not the supplement. Edited December 2, 2020 by Ishagu BLACK BLΠFLY and emperorpants 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 So you're dismissing the 40kstats guy's claim of sufficiently large sample size and access to data, but not provide any of your own ishagu? How large a sample size do you need? What would make the ultramarines strong and not have it be the codex? What does that even mean when the lists are featuring the special characters, chapter tactics and relics from the supplement? What about the other chapters and success they're enjoying, is it due to the strengths of their supplement or the codex? If it's their supplement, how is it different from the ultramarines? Gotta support assertions in some way. Marshal Loss and Iron Father Ferrum 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) I'm saying that a good month in which they've received no update to their unique rules does not make them a top tier army. In fact their success comes at the expense of other armies being nerfed, potentially, and the mission driving more armies into the midfield, thus making their chapter tactic more relevant. And as I've said over, and over, and over again, they need an update to bring all their rules up to date, and not for a power boost specifically. Edited December 2, 2020 by Ishagu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 But that same logic of "they've received no update to their unique rules" excludes the white scars from their successes. And the Dark Angels increase. And the Raven Guards. And the Blood Angels. And the Black Templars. It's still their set of rules driving the core book into positions of strength or weakness. If the marine book was oh so powerful to boost the ultramarines into top, then fists shouldn't be doing so comparatively badly. Iron hands and salamanders wouldn't be slipping down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 They need updates too. All the supplements from 8th should be updated, and all the chapters that didn't receive a supplement should get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) Sure, I agree that they're all out of date in terms of content compared to deathwatch, wolves and the leaked BA. That doesn't change that ultramarines are performing well enough to be considered top tier now. The 8.5 supplements needing to be updated content wise actually has nothing to do with ultramarines doing a lot better than other supplements. Edited December 2, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 I'm saying that a good month in which they've received no update to their unique rules does not make them a top tier army. In fact their success comes at the expense of other armies being nerfed, potentially, and the mission driving more armies into the midfield, thus making their chapter tactic more relevant. And as I've said over, and over, and over again, they need an update to bring all their rules up to date, and not for a power boost specifically. The success come from people who test new things and train with their lists. I think there used to be huge potential in former edition codex which we all (as community) never realised how good some combos had been. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Sure, I agree that they're all out of date in terms of content compared to deathwatch, wolves and the leaked BA. That doesn't change that ultramarines are performing well enough to be considered top tier now. The 8.5 supplements needing to be updated content wise actually has nothing to do with ultramarines doing a lot better than other supplements. Sure, they can make a strong list. Doesn't change the fact that multiple characters like Calgar or Sicarius are trash. And it doesn't change the fact that most stratagems aren't useful, ans they lack Crusade rules, etc. So yes, they need an update just like all the Chapters should be getting with the new codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Calgar is fine. Marshal Loss and Blindhamster 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Calgar is fine. Weakest named chapter master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Let's get back on topic about codex supplements for Codex: Space Marines. Discussion about specific Chapters' rules should be taken up in the appropriate forums. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 I think the take away is Ishagu has a bias on the relative balance of Ultramarines based on his play meta and it being his main (or only? I honestly don't know) faction. Points can be sorted via chapter approved, as can stay changes. Chapters with existing supplements can wait a while before they need to be given updated supplements. Focus should be more on some non-loyalist Marine stuff since 8th was very heavily biased towards Loyalist Marines. Only exception to that now should be BT who need a proper supplement since they're back to a pdf codex. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 I just removed a bunch of completely off topic posts. This is your last chance to keep it on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 How I feel regarding this subject is there are more deserving factions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) I think GW should update a book properly. A new marine codex? That's fine. Now update all the chapters within it instead of spreading them out for months/years. Get a faction out of the way fully and then give the rest of them the attention they deserve. If people are sick of Marine updates, then spreading them out over a year won't help. They'll be seeing new Astartes releases, articles, discussions etc for months and months. Getting everything out of the way in one go is better in this regard. Edited December 3, 2020 by Ishagu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Seriously Sm factions like Smurfs are rated top tier now. There are many other factions much more deserving and it will help external balance which is needed imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 It's not all about power. I want UM themed Crusade rules, for example. Subtleknife 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armarnis Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 I would prefer my books to have a bit more longevity. Last sm dex lasted not even a year?! Thats really a shame. IF they renew the 8th supplements now they should make sure i dont need to dispose it in another 12 months. A free and pure rules update would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 It's not all about power. I want UM themed Crusade rules, for example. Ultramarines are the archetype for Space Marines... so thats the least chapter who needs sort of this ruleset for their own chapter. And although the Black Templars more diverse then most other chapters (if not the most diverse if you exclude the wolves) - even them have very good crusade rules and fitting missions in the current codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 All the supplements should be updated imo. Better to do it in one go and then focus on other factions after. Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 It's not all about power. I want UM themed Crusade rules, for example. Ultramarines are the archetype for Space Marines... so thats the least chapter who needs sort of this ruleset for their own chapter. And although the Black Templars more diverse then most other chapters (if not the most diverse if you exclude the wolves) - even them have very good crusade rules and fitting missions in the current codex. Did I ever say other chapters should not be updated? I think you need to get over your dislike for the Ultramarines. They should be updated alongside all of the codex chapters. Subtleknife 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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