Blade of Sanguinius: the best thing yet for BA?

[SnorriSnorrison]

I wish I was wrong! I’d take all three of the non-DC ones every game I think, just ‘cause. :D

[smileyjim]

Thinking about blade, it could be kinda cool to either tool up a jump librarian or have one escort your character killer to drop null zone on the target and bodyguard.

 

If your BoS character could be given 5+++ or made death company to help survive the fight through to target or counterpunch

[Hintzy]

A jump Librarian with Wings, Quickening, and Null Zone via Tome of Malcador could be a really great assassin for this, as long as your target isn't something like Mortarion.

 

Great idea, Smiley.

 

Edit: Maybe Champion of Humanity as the WL trait.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Hintzy

[Shaezus]

The null zone Libby is a great thing, whether in beat mode or as support for DC captain or something. Just watch out for killing your captain's invul too. Yep I did this before. Subtle yet huge change to null zone from last Ed

 

I'm going with a DC captain for now. Grants the extra attack, reroll hits and 3++ from visions, forlorn fury and 5+++ strat. Imperiums sword and Teeth of Terra seem to be the best math for T5 and T6 targets

[smileyjim]

The other thing is using a beatstick Chaplin with the no reroll debuff with a librarian might be good

[Indefragable]

When in doubt, flip the chessboard around. 

 

Let's say BoS is used against us. How do we respond?

 

 

• How do we prevent our opponent using BoS from achieving it?
• Which character in your army would most likely be targeted?
• Do we hide our targeted character? Off the board for as long as possible?
• Do we try to get them killed quickly to cap our opponent at only having 5pts instead of 15pts?
• What are the trade-offs for the above, especially if we were relying on certain damage output or buffing effects from our targeted character?
• How will our opponent counter our decisions above?

 

A good mental exercise to run through to evaluate the value of BoS.

 

Likewise, what are the ideal enemy targets to apply it to? 

 

I have sort of a mental graph where the x axis is "maximum value to us to remove from the board", and the y axis is "ease of killing with our character." 

 

Maximum value to us to remove from the board + Ease of killing with our character.

• IG Company Commanders
• Squishy Psykers or Techmarine types, like the Necron dudes
• Warlords
• Apothecaries/Sanguinary Priests
• Sanguinary Priests as Warlords

 

Maximum value to us to remove from the board but HARD to kill with our character

• Super characters like Abaddon, Guilliman, Ghaz (buff + killy + resilient)
• Big scary things like Knights

 

Minimum value for us to kill + easy for our character to kll

• IG Characters like Master of Ordnance or such

 

Minimum value for us to kill but HARD to kill with our character

• Units designed to tank challenges or counter-attack characters, like Company/Chapter Champions or such
• Distraction carnifex type units

 

....more examples to be added above, but just trying illustrate examples to help us think about how to best use Blade of Sanguinius, and thus provide an analysis of just how good or not it is. 

 

 

 

[Hintzy]

The way I read your post sounds like your calculations are based on being able to choose which of your opponent's characters is the target, but it's your opponent who chooses which is their models is the target.

[Indefragable]

The way I read your post sounds like your calculations are based on being able to choose which of your opponent's characters is the target, but it's your opponent who chooses which is their models is the target.

...right. But break it down and analyze like an opponent would.

[Shaezus]

That's some superb input @indefragable

 

After running math and toying with different builds, a DC MC Hammer and Imperiums Sword seems to give most guarantee against any character. can take down anything T6 7W or higher with 3++, even T8. Using re rolls from visions plus command point reroll if you're unlucky on the 2+ to wound, even a lower than average roll will take it down.

 

With secondaries being decided before deployment, a savvy oppo who happens to have a disposable character could easily stop 10VP. In this case maybe go with rapid assault or something else

 

In any other case, 15VP Blade of Sanguinius.."should".. be achievable. If sometimes harder. But its effect on the game will be greater.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Shaezus

[Indefragable]

That's some superb input @indefragable

 

After running math and toying with different builds, a DC MC Hammer and Imperiums Sword seems to give most guarantee against any character. can take down anything T6 7W or higher with 3++, even T8. Using re rolls from visions plus command point reroll if you're unlucky on the 2+ to wound, even a lower than average roll will take it down.

 

With secondaries being decided before deployment, a savvy oppo who happens to have a disposable character could easily stop 10VP. In this case maybe go with rapid assault or something else

 

In any other case, 15VP Blade of Sanguinius.."should".. be achievable. If sometimes harder. But its effect on the game will be greater.

 

Doing my own mental reps and analysis, the thing is, how many armies have characters they can truly spare? With games being smaller and everything costing more, it's harder and harder to bring throwaway characters. We BA are probably one of the most character-intensive armies in the game at the moment, and I don't know about many of you, but I wish I had 6 HQ slots in each Battalion. 

 

My personal take is I think it's fine (and generally advisable) to build a Death Captain with this secondary in mind, but then improvise, adapt, and overcome based on battlefield conditions....whether on how to achieve this Secondary or to scrap the secondary altogether for something else. 

[Xenith]

 

Minimum value for us to kill + easy for our character to kll

• IG Characters like Master of Ordnance or such

 

 

This is the concerning part for me. Squishy throwaway character. Say you build a Super Smash Bro and your opponent selects that. Do you fire him at the weak character at the expense of dealing with actual threats, and risk being shot off the board next turn if/when you kill him immediately, or do you neutralise the bigger threat first and risk the squishy character dying? I guess if he's on board, you have control over when he dies, right? My thought would be a character on larger base to tag a second unit, but then the ability to jump over screens will be invaluable. I guess it's precision vs durability. I'd say if you have the Armour Indomitus for the 3+ invun for a phase, then go aheadand nuke the guy.  

[Indefragable]

 

 

Minimum value for us to kill + easy for our character to kll

• IG Characters like Master of Ordnance or such

 

 

This is the concerning part for me. Squishy throwaway character. Say you build a Super Smash Bro and your opponent selects that. Do you fire him at the weak character at the expense of dealing with actual threats, and risk being shot off the board next turn if/when you kill him immediately, or do you neutralise the bigger threat first and risk the squishy character dying? I guess if he's on board, you have control over when he dies, right? My thought would be a character on larger base to tag a second unit, but then the ability to jump over screens will be invaluable. I guess it's precision vs durability. I'd say if you have the Armour Indomitus for the 3+ invun for a phase, then go aheadand nuke the guy.  

 

 

I would probably kill the squishy character. Your opponent is basically leaving 15VP on the table for you, so punish him for it. Yes, you may lose Death Capt doing so, but in 9th VP are the most important thing since you can't really table people for the auto win any more. I mean, if you opponent wants to pull the goalie....perhaps he has some nefarious strategy for doing so, but that's an easy 15VP hole he just dug himself. 

[Xenith]

Very true. I need to get into the 9th ed mindset of things being expendable in order to achieve the mission goals. Very Space Marine. 

[Diagramdude]

I believe the Death company captain cannot take a warlord trait or relic. He would be good for getting forward with forlorn fury but he would have to do the job without a trait or relic

[Rhavien]

I believe the Death company captain cannot take a warlord trait or relic. He would be good for getting forward with forlorn fury but he would have to do the job without a trait or relic

He can't be your Warlord, but he can have a relic or even a Warlord trait via the Stratagem.

[Shaezus]

Yeah give him a WT and relic from the strats and he's good to go. He just can't be your warlord, so can't get the second WT.

 

After much maths - munching, DC captain with master crafted hammer has the advantage in an environment with 7W character models (not just primaris bike characters either) with invulnerable saves. For example against Trajann last weekend, it only took two failed 3++ to kill him. I'm going to give him a grav pistol to try outout against death guard next weekend but ofc storm shield is good.

 

Yes a big thing here is that you can control how the target is killed. You'd have to factor it in to your game but a smash captain supporting and buffing other units for a few turns is always a big psychological factor for any opponent.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Chose the secondary and got 0 points from it, but that was due to my own mistake and then also due to my opponent’s incredibly hot dice rolls and further due to my poor own dice rolls.

 

The viability of this secondary really comes through if you have a character to spare that’s built for combat, a DC captain maybe.

It’s not at easy to get to a WL if he has a 12” no Deepstrike bubble around him and a Leviathan, a Redemptor and two Contemptors between him.

 

On another note, the tactical marines in a drop pod worked fine to secure linebreaker turn 1!

[Shaezus]

@Snorri ouch! Sorry to hear that bro. It's no fun when the dice are bi - polar like that

 

Which character did you issue the challenge with and who did he accept it with?

[Xenith]

Chose the secondary and got 0 points from it, but that was due to my own mistake and then also due to my opponent’s incredibly hot dice rolls and further due to my poor own dice rolls.

 

The viability of this secondary really comes through if you have a character to spare that’s built for combat, a DC captain maybe.

It’s not at easy to get to a WL if he has a 12” no Deepstrike bubble around him and a Leviathan, a Redemptor and two Contemptors between him.

 

 

Ouch. In that instance I would never DS. Most scenarios you set up 18" from the enemy now, right? Combine that with a 12" FF move, you can be 6" into their DZ turn 1. A jump pack lets you get over those contemptors. I'd absolutely only choose this if you have the character to dedicate to achieving the objective. Having them die should be factored in to you battle plans - your army list essentially starts 150pts down, but potentially 15 VP's up.

[SnorriSnorrison]

@Snorri ouch! Sorry to hear that bro. It's no fun when the dice are bi - polar like that

Which character did you issue the challenge with and who did he accept it with?

Yeah, but I’m quite rusty as well so made lots of mistakes, went second and had to take two devastating turns of shooting which stripped most of my threats off the table.

Used my regular captain with the mask and rites of war and also his MC relic blade from Artisans. Since my opponent was character-light (just a primaris chaplain and his WL Phobos captain), it could’ve worked out! Could’ve...

 

 

  

 

Chose the secondary and got 0 points from it, but that was due to my own mistake and then also due to my opponent’s incredibly hot dice rolls and further due to my poor own dice rolls.

The viability of this secondary really comes through if you have a character to spare that’s built for combat, a DC captain maybe.

It’s not at easy to get to a WL if he has a 12” no Deepstrike bubble around him and a Leviathan, a Redemptor and two Contemptors between him.

 

 

Ouch. In that instance I would never DS. Most scenarios you set up 18" from the enemy now, right? Combine that with a 12" FF move, you can be 6" into their DZ turn 1. A jump pack lets you get over those contemptors. I'd absolutely only choose this if you have the character to dedicate to achieving the objective. Having them die should be factored in to you battle plans - your army list essentially starts 150pts down, but potentially 15 VP's up.

The captain I actually didn’t DS, but his screening unit of VanVets was whittled down in one turn by a double grav-flux cannon Leviathan and a dropping unit of Inceptors with Bolters to a single man left standing, so moving out was out of the question. The 6++ didn’t help too much, but it made sure the unit survived, but not for any benefit.