What lore progression would you like to see?

[BitsHammer]

There are hints about the lost legions. We can assume one suffered some kind of mutation as other chapters do their best to hide their mutations out of fear (I assume the Big E would have them purged and censored from history to hide the truth that his Angels of Death were not perfect as that would undermine the message his crusade was presenting), the other likely saw some kind of purge that swelled the Ultramarine numbers, though it's hard to know why. Perhaps their Primarch was dead or somehow more corrupted or lost than Angron was, or worse.

 

The HH books hint a bit about their personalities as well but it's never completely dived into as to maintain the mystery.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't think whatever they did was more heinous than the Heresy. That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

It was likely bad or very embarrassing, but contained enough to be covered up effectively.

 

Harder to cover up nine legions going rebel, splitting the Imperium in twain and invading Terra.

10k years of suppression in a dictatorship can make a lot of people forget about a lot...

[b1soul]

We know for a fact that the Great Heresy War hasn't been entirely suppressed in M41

 

The Lost Legions have essentially been erased in M41

 

That doesn't mean whatever the latter did was more "heinous" than crippling the Emperor and flooding the Webway Project with Daemons.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I would like to see the Imperium fractured with more rivalry and/or uneasy alliances. Every faction still loyal in their own way but ROE would be "shoot first, ask later"

Basically I'm talking Ragnarok.

Then they could really advance story line and get really creative with models for each faction because there would be less of a common theme.

[Snazzy]

 

I actually would really rather they didn't do that- half the appeal of the Second and the Eleventh is that even by the standards of 40K's early history, nobody knows anything about them. They've been completely forgotten- or rather, completely buried, as whatever they did was so heinous that it made the Heresy look like a slight wibble. There's something pretty cool about, in a setting where people are trying to dredge up every little scrap of lost knowledge from the past that they can, something so awful that it's been deliberately and completely erased. That, and the hint that there was some interference from Malal of all gods is pretty neat, and IMO at least about as much as we need to know. Also a cheeky way of saying "Yes, we're not actually allowed to use Malal anymore but we totally remember him and he sort of still exists" which is neat.

 

I did have a weird, weird dream once involving the Second Legion, who were female- the reason for their "retirement" being that the survival rates for new recruits were so pathetically low, and even those Marines who managed to survive the gene-forging often developing deformities (ala early Emperor's Children) that the Legion was declared "cursed" and the very few healthy survivors were kept on Terra for...some reason.

 

 

My problem is that we get to know things like how the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos gods on Molech, but not about the Lost Legions.  The Primarchs are scared to talk about it in private conversations.  I think it would have been better that that the Lost Legions were destroyed through defeats in the Great Crusade and eventually forgotten about over the ensuing centuries, rather than some hypothetical where they did something so heinous that even the Daemon Primarchs don't let the cat out of the bag in 10,000 years.  Or, just never mention them in the first place.  In other words, i don't like the idea that we know so many of the Emperor's secrets, but we are deliberately led on by the authors concerning the Lost Legions.

[WARMASTER_]

I would like to see the Imperium fractured with more rivalry and/or uneasy alliances. Every faction still loyal in their own way but ROE would be "shoot first, ask later"

Basically I'm talking Ragnarok.

Then they could really advance story line and get really creative with models for each faction because there would be less of a common theme.

We get this a lot with Astartes or the inquisition but agreed another Badab war style narrative would be great to see

[Scribe]

I'd like to see progression excluding Marines.

 

Yes, it would sell less. Yes, it would require a look at other factions.

 

No, I don't want the game centered on Primaris anymore.

[WARMASTER_]

The games always been centred around marines to a degree and Primaris are just marines

 

It wouldn’t have to be marines explicitly it could be inquisition vs mechanicus either imperium faction at each other’s throats is fun

[Scribe]

The games always been centred around marines to a degree and Primaris are just marines

 

It wouldn’t have to be marines explicitly it could be inquisition vs mechanicus either imperium faction at each other’s throats is fun

True, but the marketing push behind Primaris has essentially made it unbearable.

[WARMASTER_]

Eh I like them, as I see them as just marines it’s no different from any other time in GW history

 

I guess it’s each to their own but we’re also seeing more focus for every other faction (if not always in models them at least lore / Rules) so I think the spotlight is exaggerated to a degree

Edited December 11, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[sarabando]

Eh I like them, as I see them as just marines it’s no different from any other time in GW history

 

I guess it’s each to their own but we’re also seeing more focus for every other faction (if not always in models them at least lore / Rules) so I think the spotlight is exaggerated to a degree

eventually yes this is how it should be just one day when they stop making first born kits just update the codex and boom this is just marines now. Theres no mention of it persay.

[b1soul]

I hope they never completely remove oldmarines from the setting.

 

I like the contrast between the older and younger breeds coexisting. Even after the oldmarine veterans die out, I hope some less "flagship" chapters still make oldmarines because of dogma or lack of primaries tech, e.g. Flesh Tearers if they're still around.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd rather they find a way to merge everything. Really don't like taking away the opportunity to play in M36, etc.

 

So would like to see it work out right that way, nobody is harmed by other kits existing.

 

They should not speak of II and XI legions. The point is to mirror the lost legions of Rome, there is no value in adding them in explicitly.

Edited December 12, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Lexington]

 

I don't think whatever they did was more heinous than the Heresy. That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

It was likely bad or very embarrassing, but contained enough to be covered up effectively.

 

Harder to cover up nine legions going rebel, splitting the Imperium in twain and invading Terra.

10k years of suppression in a dictatorship can make a lot of people forget about a lot...

 

Eh, 10,000 years can bury a lot of stuff on their own without any need for suppression. It's an incredibly long time - about twice the length of real-world history - and even with the real world's arguably more intact historical record, there's so, so, so much that's lost and will likely never be recovered. Whole civilizations with hundreds of years of history still get discovered to this day, and that's just because of chance discoveries or long, arduous research and the putting together of disparate fragments. Even then, only the barest details about whole societies are known, and are often only arrived at by conjecture.

 

History is hard, man.

 

"Mystery" gets brought up a lot when it comes to the Lost Legions, but I think that's a knock-off effect of their bigger gift to the 40K era of, uh, 40K: Verisimilitude. Of course there's whole Legions whose history have been lost over a hundred centuries. How they were lost? Well, who knows. Ten millennia of cultural turnover, apocalyptic wars and the simple drift of humanity throughout the stars means that only the most historically clued-in members of the Adeptus elite probably even know there were Primarchs. For the most part, this kind of ancient history would have been long forgotten by the great majority of the setting's human inhabitants. Just like the real world, local history lords over the formative. Sure, there's an Emperor, somewhere, he's very big and important, but did you hear about the grain shortage in Hive Acelphus? Biggest news of the century, I tells ya...

 

I'd like to see progression excluding Marines.

 

Yes, it would sell less. Yes, it would require a look at other factions.

 

No, I don't want the game centered on Primaris anymore.

 

I would love to see this, too. You'll probably never get a big campaign write-up that's completely bereft of Astartes, but it'd be great to see something like the 3rd War for Armageddon again. Something where the Marines are, at best, a component of the conflict, and not its focus. Having everything revolve around the petty dramas of what's probably the most meaningless army in the setting just gets old.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

Eh I like them, as I see them as just marines it’s no different from any other time in GW history

 

I guess it’s each to their own but we’re also seeing more focus for every other faction (if not always in models them at least lore / Rules) so I think the spotlight is exaggerated to a degree

eventually yes this is how it should be just one day when they stop making first born kits just update the codex and boom this is just marines now. Theres no mention of it persay.

Agreed! Although they’re just kinds marines already anyway though I think to much stock is put into the word “Primaris”. They wear power armour they have Bolters + Chainswords the only difference is that they’re actually the right size model wise

 

Jes Goodwin just improved his design because he finally had the capability with the models but GW was definitely cautious of the “Reeee” crowd (which is totally fair after the fantasy reaction) so instead of saying “guys we’ve finally made true scale”they had to be super cautious and write in “lore reasons” and boom Primaris are born

 

As it was really just a range refresh they should definitely move what are now “First born” out of the current game. But also because they’re wrote themselves into some what of a corner lore wise I feel like we should get something like a 40K “historic” setting where we can still play the classic campaigns a maybe have them expanded upon like the “reign of blood” or the “Nova terra Interregnum“ I feel like that kind of thing would go down great, almost like “the old world” that was teased

[WARMASTER_]

I would love to see this, too. You'll probably never get a big campaign write-up that's completely bereft of Astartes, but it'd be great to see something like the 3rd War for Armageddon again. Something where the Marines are, at best, a component of the conflict, and not its focus. Having everything revolve around the petty dramas of what's probably the most meaningless army in the setting just gets old.

That’s kind of most conflicts in the lore though, there’s generally millions of guard present and marines are the shock troops

 

Its kind of a stretch saying Space marines are a meaningless faction surely? In real life if they didn’t exist neither would the game, lore wise if they didn’t exist neither would the imperium, you might not like them but it doesn’t change that they’re pivotal in both

Edited December 12, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Rik Lightstar]

A lot gets made about Jes' line about a range refresh and I have no doubt that was indeed the original intention.

 

But ideas evolve as they get passed around the team, I think the Primaris idea was a later add in once models made it to the background and rules teams, but actually long term it is the better plan if they keep both ranges going.

 

Rik

[WARMASTER_]

A lot gets made about Jes' line about a range refresh and I have no doubt that was indeed the original intention.

 

But ideas evolve as they get passed around the team, I think the Primaris idea was a later add in once models made it to the background and rules teams, but actually long term it is the better plan if they keep both ranges going.

 

Rik

That was my point GW were too Cautious to say here’s a new line of marines so needed an in lore reason for them to suddenly be bigger

 

I agree also they should be kept around but maybe it a different game like 30k if they move the timeline further? At 100 years it makes sense for both to be around but chapters would definitely only make primaris now, there’s no reason not too, so first born would die out eventually

[chapter master 454]

I would say that once GW are done getting the Primaris line sorted, they need to keep off marines for a while. Would even say not even give chaos a look just yet, go about the Xenos and other Imperial Factions first, focus on them then after they have been tussling, give us a major chaos arch of stuff that includes supplements on par with loyalists.

 

However we all know how this goes, GW ain't going to do anything while Primaris sell and when they stop selling they just bring out more Primaris. Not saying it isn't their right however for the long term health of the game you have to do things that aren't as major selling to maintain growth. Much like Farmers with Crop rotation, you gotta have a year or so where you let the soil recover and you help it along, in that vein GW needs to rotate what crop their selling and I ain't saying they need to only grow one crop unlike what they are doing with Primaris. Just let the community breath for a month without needing to wade through Primaris.

I want to like Primaris more but the amount of push is insane.

[Lexington]

That’s kind of most conflicts in the lore though, there’s generally millions of guard present and marines are the shock troops

I don’t think it is, tho? Sure, for a lot of the warfare that gets described - and definitely what get described exhaustively - Marines are seemingly omnipresent. That doesn’t seem like a realistic description of how the Imperium fights its wars, tho. Marines simply don’t have the numbers to be involved in most conflicts. There’s only about a million of them, spread thinly across the galaxy, only able to deploy to so many theaters of war at one time. They just can’t be around for more than a fraction of the Imperium’s many and endless conflicts.

 

Its kind of a stretch saying Space marines are a meaningless faction surely? In real life if they didn’t exist neither would the game, lore wise if they didn’t exist neither would the imperium, you might not like them but it doesn’t change that they’re pivotal in both

Oh, I love Marines! My hobby room’s littered with Marine models of both the spiky and non-spiky varieties. They’re great, the backbone of the fiction, probably the most incredibly compelling creation in GW’s history - well, next to Orks, anyway. :p

 

What I’m saying about “meaningless,” tho, refers to the same logic about their numbers. There’s so few of them, only rarely would they be able to be present in large enough numbers to be truly pivotal to the conflict at hand. Marines are an interesting and effective shock force that can get things done when they’re able to show up, but overall, they’re a blip in comparison to the trillions of Guardsmen and endless naval assets that form the great majority of the Imperium’s military might. I wish we had more tacit acknowledgement of this in the fiction.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would like to see more of the Chaos legions and all be involved more directly. We finally got Kor Phaeron to be active in Faith and Fury, but what have a bunch of them been doing for 10 millennia?

[b1soul]

@ Lexington

 

I don't think the issue is whether it was theoretically possible for the IoM to bury the Great Heresy War. Yes, maybe...or just let things be forgotten over millenia.

 

We know the Horus Heresy wasn't entirely buried after 10K years, but the Lost Legions were buried in a much shorter time

 

Common sense tells us that the Heresy was in all likelihood harder (not impossible) to bury or forget than whatever befell the Lost Legions. So the post-Heresy government likely deemed an attempt to cover up the Galactic Civil War to be too much trouble...and it would be easier and probably more beneficial to leverage the conflict as Imperial propaganda (the divine Emperor and his angelic primarchs battle the forces of darkness or fallen angels...different ways to spin it)

 

Ultimately, I don't think this has any bearing on whether what the two Lost Legions did was more heinous than what the nine Traitor Legions did. The nine Traitor Legions crippled the Emperor and destroyed the Webway Project. Nothing tops that in the setting.

Edited December 12, 2020 by b1soul

[WARMASTER_]

@Lexington I would argue the point that it’s perspective, if you read say the PA books in 8th, let’s say and “Ritual of the damned” as it’s about DA and GK and there’s a Dark angels master on the cover you’ll assume it’s just about them, but if you look at the forces present list, there’s around 250 guard regiments present, 2 Knight houses 35 Sister preceptories and then only 1 company of each DA and Grey Knights and some other scattered Demi companies and strike forces of other unknown chapters this seems like a very reasonable forces list for what is a major conflict in the imperium

 

I agree with you whole heartedly they’re a fraction on the military might of the imperiums war machine, also spread crazy thin but as GW tend to focus on the more major conflicts and they’re generally at those, it probably feels like they’re everywhere at once

 

I still think meaningless even with you’re valid objections is a stretch

Edited December 12, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Scribe]

@Lexington I would argue the point that it’s perspective, if you read say the PA books in 8th, let’s say and “Ritual of the damned” as it’s about DA and GK and there’s a Dark angels master on the cover you’ll assume it’s just about them, but if you look at the forces present list, there’s around 250 guard regiments present, 2 Knight houses 35 Sister preceptories and then only 1 company of each DA and Grey Knights and some other scattered Demi companies and strike forces of other unknown chapters this seems like a very reasonable forces list for what is a major conflict in the imperium

 

I agree with you whole heartedly they’re a fraction on the military might of the imperiums war machine, also spread crazy thin but as GW tend to focus on the more major conflicts and they’re generally at those, it probably feels like they’re everywhere at once

 

I still think meaningless even with you’re valid objections is a stretch

 

It's about the presentation. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that the game does not revolve around Marines, especially from a marketing perspective.

 

That would be nice to get a break from. A really long break.

[WARMASTER_]

@Scribe if you actually read back I’m not trying to convince anyone marines aren’t the focus? I’m arguing they aren’t a meaningless faction Edited December 13, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance