What lore progression would you like to see?

[Scribe]

@Scribe if you actually read back I’m not trying to convince anyone marines aren’t the focus? I’m arguing they aren’t a meaningless faction

 

In the grand scheme of things, if we go back to thinking about the setting in a logical framework, 1000 Chapters, of 1000 Marines. Across the scope of the setting...

 

Well...

 

I see what you are saying, but in a practical way, if the setting actually followed rules of logic...they would be.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

@Scribe if you actually read back I’m not trying to convince anyone marines aren’t the focus? I’m arguing they aren’t a meaningless faction

In the grand scheme of things, if we go back to thinking about the setting in a logical framework, 1000 Chapters, of 1000 Marines. Across the scope of the setting...

 

Well...

 

I see what you are saying, but in a practical way, if the setting actually followed rules of logic...they would be.

I mean, they wouldn’t be though would they? As a faction they quite literally conquered the galaxy for the imperium. Now they’re the only reason that the imperium hasn’t fallen

 

You’re saying that because theres not many of them they’re meaningless? Then you’re VASTLY underestimating the ability of a single marine in combat and the power their fleets have in the void! Having a single squad of astartes can and does turn entire conflicts...You’re putting way to much stock into small numbers.

 

So while I agree totally with Lexington they’re spread incredibly thin across the galaxy, in doesn’t mean much to their potency in war, There’s countless lore points of there only being a few Astartes present and turning entire crusades or war zones. Then when they gather together in desperate times they’re an unstoppable force and do more than a baseline humanity ever could with billions of troops

 

I’m struggling to see any in lore reason why they’re meaningless??

Edited December 13, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Scribe]

I mean we know GW is terrible with numbers, but the 'few astartes turn an entire warzone' is just nonsensical to me. 1000 marines doing more than BILLIONS of troops? Billions?

 

I know thats the fluff, but its one of the more regrettable portions of it. A BILLION troops. A rusty spear through an Astartes throat, is still a likely dead Astartes. 

 

 

The scale of the Imperium, it should be the Guard, and Imperial Navy that are the face of the setting, and hold the center of every single engagement.

[Scribe]

BTW: This isnt a hill I'm willing to die on, but I'm completely over marines being the single most important faction in the game, with 90% of the face time and marketing push.

[WARMASTER_]

I don’t need a dollar chart to grasp the difference in numbers, all that graph does is show you is the value of something that’s the same as itself multiplied! that’s not valid to your argument as we’re comparing a baseline human to a Demi god! The two have vastly different values

 

You’re underestimating the power of the astartes in combat and then their military assets... they’re the only faction that can at once commit to a perfect orbital drop and also have a full fleet that can destroy planets

 

Got 50 million enemy's on that planet? No problem... they can scour it clean of life from orbit with one ship

 

5 million troops holding a city?? no problem orbital drop and take out the command structure in one go, they don’t have to destroy them all, wars have never worked that way and they never will

 

You’re also forgetting in the lore there’s always hundreds of thousands If not millions of guard present in these war zones and the Astartes are the surgical strike that wins the day! Of course a single squad can turn an entire war zone, destroying command echelons or warlords literally turn wars around and that’s what they’re for! it’s not nonsensical at all

Edited December 13, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Scribe]

Sure man.

[WARMASTER_]

Sure man.

Ahh a man of wisdom and guile...

[Scribe]

Nah, like I said, I'm not willing to die on this hill, and its a circular problem.

 

I feel marines are over hyped, relative to there state in the universe. The lore therefore supports a position that is the exact issue I'm talking about. So I get you. Thats the crux of my problem. Its not something to go back and forth over, because...there's no fluff basis that says anything other than "MARINES ARE ZEE BESTEST AND WIN ALL THINGS".

 

I get it. I just think thats fundamentally stupid, and has been taken to even more obnoxious extremes because they felt a need to redo the Marine line, and foist them on us 24/7 as the next best thing since Custodes.

 

Its just this exhausting self reinforcing loop.

 

13 options on the site for Space Marines.

8 Imperium

6 Chaos

9 Xenos

 

Its :cussing been done. I'm over the game, because of this self fellating Marine push.

 

So yeah. Sure man.  

[Lexington]

You’re also forgetting in the lore there’s always hundreds of thousands If not millions of guard present in these war zones and the Astartes are the surgical strike that wins the day!

 

I kind of feel like this is the problem. Millions of Guard fighting and dying in droves, but the narratives always end up revolving around Space Marines and their particular contributions. It's no mystery why this would be - Astartes have all the agency, power and internal drama that makes for an appealing narrative - but it grates and gets kind of old. Vigilus boiled down to Abbadon vs. Calgar, and for all the Big Importance of that match-up, I don't think it's nearly as compelling as a bony old Guard Commissar facing down an enormous Ork invasion with only his grit and tenacity. More of the latter, plz.

 

Re: the "meaningless" thing, it's really meant more as a relative comment than an objective one. Marines aren't meaningless, but in the 40K setting, in the actual 40K era, they're probably the least impactful of the Imperium's military options, overall.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Lexington

[Jings]

Me? I want Gav Thorpe removed from the Dark Angels and a massive retcon making the Fallen the 10th Traitor Legion. The Hunt becomes a three-way shadow war between the Dark Angels and their successors, the Chaos Fallen and the Repentant Fallen. Any allied forces (Astartes, Sororitas or mortal) are swiftly destroyed at the end of any battle with the Fallen. This would justify the secrecy of the war with the Fallen, as during their battles for redemption the forces of the Unforgiven will have slaughtered countless allies in a vain attempt to cover the stain upon their honour, arguably causing as much damage, if not more, to the Imperium than if they had openly admitted to the Fall of Caliban in the first place. Their failure to disclose it biting them in the arse with the Fallen having gathered once more to Legion-strength and revealing themselves to the Imperium at large - placing the Unforgiven in the unenviable position of having known all along of this force and operating as a Legion themselves to hide it. 

 

Secrets, betrayal and hypocrisy should be at the heart of Dark Angels lore, not time travelling Doctor Who nonsense. Hopefully they move in that direction instead. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Jings

[Ishagu]

Now that Dark Imperium and Plague War are retconned to take part during the Crusade, the sky is the limit.

 

The progression I want is for the Dawn of Fire series to travel the galaxy and focus on how various races are dealing with the Great Rift, and to re-introduce old heroes from legend.

 

Loyalist and traitor Primarchs, involvement of the Silent King, etc. I would also like to see limited alliances between humanity and certain Xenos.

[MegaVolt87]

Me? I want Gav Thorpe removed from the Dark Angels and a massive retcon making the Fallen the 10th Traitor Legion. The Hunt becomes a three-way shadow war between the Dark Angels and their successors, the Chaos Fallen and the Repentant Fallen. Any allied forces (Astartes, Sororitas or mortal) are swiftly destroyed at the end of any battle with the Fallen. This would justify the secrecy of the war with the Fallen, as during their battles for redemption the forces of the Unforgiven will have slaughtered countless allies in a vain attempt to cover the stain upon their honour, arguably causing as much damage, if not more, to the Imperium than if they had openly admitted to the Fall of Caliban in the first place. Their failure to disclose it biting them in the arse with the Fallen having gathered once more to Legion-strength and revealing themselves to the Imperium at large - placing the Unforgiven in the unenviable position of having known all along of this force and operating as a Legion themselves to hide it. 

 

Secrets, betrayal and hypocrisy should be at the heart of Dark Angels lore, not time travelling Doctor Who nonsense. Hopefully they move in that direction instead. 

 

That's what I never understood about the fallen- are there only a few thousand left up to M41, which is why they have been so hard to track down or are they an organized group that is actually recruiting + replenishing their numbers these days, so can never really be destroyed completely? Is a fallen still the OG DA legion traitors or a DA made from looted geneseed/ fallen making new marines? Also Bobby met Cypher, so what now? DA gonna murk a primarch? If anything the fallen should be more of an open secret at this point. Also take Thorpe away from writing  DA +1, also Kyme from Salamanders. 

[jaxom]

 

Me? I want Gav Thorpe removed from the Dark Angels and a massive retcon making the Fallen the 10th Traitor Legion. The Hunt becomes a three-way shadow war between the Dark Angels and their successors, the Chaos Fallen and the Repentant Fallen. Any allied forces (Astartes, Sororitas or mortal) are swiftly destroyed at the end of any battle with the Fallen. This would justify the secrecy of the war with the Fallen, as during their battles for redemption the forces of the Unforgiven will have slaughtered countless allies in a vain attempt to cover the stain upon their honour, arguably causing as much damage, if not more, to the Imperium than if they had openly admitted to the Fall of Caliban in the first place. Their failure to disclose it biting them in the arse with the Fallen having gathered once more to Legion-strength and revealing themselves to the Imperium at large - placing the Unforgiven in the unenviable position of having known all along of this force and operating as a Legion themselves to hide it. 

 

Secrets, betrayal and hypocrisy should be at the heart of Dark Angels lore, not time travelling Doctor Who nonsense. Hopefully they move in that direction instead. 

 

That's what I never understood about the fallen- are there only a few thousand left up to M41, which is why they have been so hard to track down or are they an organized group that is actually recruiting + replenishing their numbers these days, so can never really be destroyed completely? Is a fallen still the OG DA legion traitors or a DA made from looted geneseed/ fallen making new marines? Also Bobby met Cypher, so what now? DA gonna murk a primarch? If anything the fallen should be more of an open secret at this point. Also take Thorpe away from writing  DA +1, also Kyme from Salamanders. 

 

 

The handwave is that they warp hole they got sucked into spread them across space and time. So however many of them that existed they get spit back out, a few at a time, into reality, at random, over 10,000 years. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

To be fair, the massive number of the Fallen is a new revelation. The Dark Angels didn't realise there were so many to begin with, and they thought they had the entire roster of Fallen.

The Fallen as a consept are perfectly fine, but I agree Gav needs to be barred from touching my favourite Loyalist Legion ever again. It is 110% his fault we have those "dork angles are teh traitor" memes.

 

I just want someone to write a 40k era Dak Angels story that doesn't make them look:

• incompetant
• heretical
• incompetantly heretical/heretically incompetant

[jaxom]

 

To be fair, the massive number of the Fallen is a new revelation. The Dark Angels didn't realise there were so many to begin with, and they thought they had the entire roster of Fallen.

The Fallen as a consept are perfectly fine, but I agree Gav needs to be barred from touching my favourite Loyalist Legion ever again. It is 110% his fault we have those "dork angles are teh traitor" memes.

 

I just want someone to write a 40k era Dak Angels story that doesn't make them look:

• incompetant
• heretical
• incompetantly heretical/heretically incompetant

 

 

At this point Angels of Darkness is the Fahrenheit 451 of 40k books. Despite what the author has stated for intention, its hard to wrestle the narrative from what the majority of readers projected onto it. Personally, I'm more annoyed by the HH writers who decided to use it as a jumping off point for characterizing the Lion.

[chapter master 454]

I would agree that the only faction GW has any sense of scale of is marines. Whenever they are deployed we get the numbers practically down to the squads but for anything not space marine? 100s of this regiment, 100s of this order and maybe 10 billion criminal conscripts all given a toothbrush to sharpen however they can.

 

It isn't that the lore can't be Guardsmen dying in droves, heck the death tally of the 40k universe should be in trillions on the day to day without question but really they need to stop throwing so much resources in so few engagements. By all means really, the thing about space marines is that they can be at nearly any warzone fairly quickly and be effective but there are never enough of them and can never stick around long. The guardsman however are the opposite to this, slow and hard to get anywhere but when they do get brought to bear they are unstoppable with their man and firepower being able to match the Tyranids for their sheer mass of force. That is the standard Modus Operandi for the Imperial Guard, regardless of regiment.

However that doesn't cover other strange lore nuggets here and there that are just...daft. Such as the Artillery Regiment that was allowed to, without retaliation, shell a heretic IMPERATOR class titan for a week straight which ends with the titans death. How the heck does an Imperator Titan not decide to walk over to the artillery regiment or even just aim one of its continent carving guns in their rough direction and let loose.

 

I feel GW do need to get a central lore bible set-up for their universe which would actually help them more with establishing defendable IP than their current non-sense. This central pillar of lore would help not just codex writers for their fluff but also Black Library authors who likely want to be respectful of the world they are telling their story in. Establish core things that can and can't happen, what is and isn't said along with certain core historical details that can exist within such a repository but would never need to be expanded on, only hinted towards (such as the 2nd and 11th legion). Think of it like how Dark Souls works, there must be a central lore document they pull from but instead of using that to tell the story they instead laser focus on specific characters and only their brief interactions reveal info on lesser expanded on elements. 

 

Also, would like to see lore progress sort of drift back towards what we had prior to Gulliman. Stories that may not mean much but do help expand on the universe as it is now. Mayhap even show a sense of the imperium learning of Gulliman's return such as citizens or soldiers having new expletives relating to such a matter ("by the son of the Emperor", "Gulliman's Graces...")

[Jings]

 

 

Me? I want Gav Thorpe removed from the Dark Angels and a massive retcon making the Fallen the 10th Traitor Legion. The Hunt becomes a three-way shadow war between the Dark Angels and their successors, the Chaos Fallen and the Repentant Fallen. Any allied forces (Astartes, Sororitas or mortal) are swiftly destroyed at the end of any battle with the Fallen. This would justify the secrecy of the war with the Fallen, as during their battles for redemption the forces of the Unforgiven will have slaughtered countless allies in a vain attempt to cover the stain upon their honour, arguably causing as much damage, if not more, to the Imperium than if they had openly admitted to the Fall of Caliban in the first place. Their failure to disclose it biting them in the arse with the Fallen having gathered once more to Legion-strength and revealing themselves to the Imperium at large - placing the Unforgiven in the unenviable position of having known all along of this force and operating as a Legion themselves to hide it. 

 

Secrets, betrayal and hypocrisy should be at the heart of Dark Angels lore, not time travelling Doctor Who nonsense. Hopefully they move in that direction instead. 

 

That's what I never understood about the fallen- are there only a few thousand left up to M41, which is why they have been so hard to track down or are they an organized group that is actually recruiting + replenishing their numbers these days, so can never really be destroyed completely? Is a fallen still the OG DA legion traitors or a DA made from looted geneseed/ fallen making new marines? Also Bobby met Cypher, so what now? DA gonna murk a primarch? If anything the fallen should be more of an open secret at this point. Also take Thorpe away from writing  DA +1, also Kyme from Salamanders. 

 

 

The handwave is that they warp hole they got sucked into spread them across space and time. So however many of them that existed they get spit back out, a few at a time, into reality, at random, over 10,000 years. 

 

 

That's the issue really - its a handwave. I'm incredibly forgiving (no pun intended) of the lore being silly, but the fact that the Dark Angels and their known successors make such a big deal of the fact that, at best, a couple thousand of their old Legionaries got spit out around time and space and might out them as having an internal civil war ten thousand years past is just ridiculous at this point. There's no threat to them. If anything, the revelation that they're acting as a Legion (albeit for one specific purpose) is a bigger deal than that, and even then, we've seen both the Fists and Blood Angels act in a similar way since. 

 

There's also the fact that not all Fallen fell to Chaos. Some were Calibanite, rebelling against the Imperium for what it had done to their homeworld, or Terrans bitter that the Lion sidelined them in favour of the Calibanites. Both of these factions could ultimately be repentant, and there's plenty of room for some grimdark repentance there, or even allowance for the Unforgiven to question their own methods and motivations. But all this potential is squandered in favour of a single-minded obsession that doesn't particularly make sense in the irrational hellscape that is Warhammer 40,000. 

 

 

 

 

To be fair, the massive number of the Fallen is a new revelation. The Dark Angels didn't realise there were so many to begin with, and they thought they had the entire roster of Fallen.

The Fallen as a consept are perfectly fine, but I agree Gav needs to be barred from touching my favourite Loyalist Legion ever again. It is 110% his fault we have those "dork angles are teh traitor" memes.

 

I just want someone to write a 40k era Dak Angels story that doesn't make them look:

• incompetant
• heretical
• incompetantly heretical/heretically incompetant

 

 

That development is what made me think of the Shadow War concept in the first place. The Fallen gathering in numbers is really cool idea, but why would it take ten thousand years for them to muster? Have they really just been waiting for Luther to go all Prison Break this entire time? Large, coordinated Fallen incursions being common enough that they need to swiftly abandon other fronts would make the whole "Dark Angels smell Fallen and leave" thing less of a meme and more an understandable necessity if the Unforgiven Chapters are the only organizations in the Imperium that know about it. One or two dudes that will make them look bad if they're found is a pretty dumb reason for having two dedicated hunting companies in every chapter after all. 

 

I really don't mind the heretical aspect at all though, and I think it could create very interesting stories if leaned into, I just don't think the current reasoning tracks well enough with the Horus Heresy's revelation that most legions had varying degrees of dissention. Some (looking at you, White Scars) had schisms almost as large as that of the First yet their sins were clearly forgiven. Competency is more of an issue, and easily addressed with "reveals" rather than retcons. 

 

Instead of a Fallen whispering in the ear of a Planetary Governor or a becoming best buds with the friendly neighbourhood Chaos Lord to prank the green guys, they could instead be invading worlds at large under the veil of secrecy unwittingly created by their Loyalist brethren in their zealous pursuit to clean up the mess in-house. Then you wouldn't have Unforgiven chapters nipping off because they've had a sighting of Fallen, but because the Unforgiven chapters are the only Imperial organizations aware of the threat. The Unforgiven would then need to be quick in order to minimize the excess casualties that they themselves would be forced to inflict in order to keep their secret, their "kill all witnesses" modus operandi providing an excellent reason for said secrecy, creating a vicious cycle of needing to keep the ongoing conflict secret due to their own secrecy. 

 

It just seems to me that the entire issue of secrecy among the Unforgiven chapters being a problem of their own making is a more interesting avenue for storytelling than being worried they'll look bad. By repeatedly slaughtering loyal allies to suppress the knowledge of the Fallen because their discovery would in turn reveal their own treasonous acts, it provides the Unforgiven more agency in the need for the secrecy and and justifies their rampant paranoia. They'd be keeping the secret of the Fallen not just for to hide the fact that there are Fallen, but also to avoid censure for the crimes they've committed in keeping that secret. It gives them more to lose, while making more blame fall (again no pun intended) squarely on their own shoulders rather than those of ancient traitors. 

 

And as an added bonus, the fact that the Unforgiven are able to hide such a huge and insidious threat to the Imperium among themselves lends them an air of competence. Having a war that spans ten thousand years that no one outside of those forces participating in them is no easy feat. They've done what they've set out to do and kept their own ongoing Heresy episode under wraps, while arguably causing as much damage to the Imperium as those Fallen forces in the process. It would give the conflict a poetic irony and completely justify their fear of the Inquisition discovering what they've been up to for the past ten millennia. Whatever way you look at it, it wouldn't look good, and it sticks to the theme that if the Dark Angels had just been open about what happened on Caliban in the first place, they would have likely been able more effectively deal with the Fallen with the might of the Imperium at its back. Instead, its a mess they've exacerbated and can now realistically only deal with themselves, as discovery of their actions by the Imperium at large could very well lead to them being declared Excommunicate Traitoris. 

 

Quick edit - It would also create fun writing opportunities for initiation into the inner circles. You'd have the parables, followed by the Fall of Caliban, and then the revelation the Fallen themselves, and finally how far they've fallen themselves in order to keep it secret and why it can never be revealed.  

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jings

[WARMASTER_]

That development is what made me think of the Shadow War concept in the first place. The Fallen gathering in numbers is really cool idea, but why would it take ten thousand years for them to muster? Have they really just been waiting for Luther to go all Prison Break this entire time? Large, coordinated Fallen incursions being common enough that they need to swiftly abandon other fronts would make the whole "Dark Angels smell Fallen and leave" thing less of a meme and more an understandable necessity if the Unforgiven Chapters are the only organizations in the Imperium that know about it. One or two dudes that will make them look bad if they're found is a pretty dumb reason for having two dedicated hunting companies in every chapter after all.

 

Just a small note really but the fallen haven’t lived the ten thousand years waiting, the warp has thrown that out at different points from the fall of caliban, and just like the traitors legions even for the longest out it might still only be a serval hundred years older because of living in the eye. Or being spat out in M41 The fact they’re only just organising because they can in imperium Nihilis makes a lot of sense as they now has a foot hold in real space.

 

Also the DA aren’t the scars or any other legion for that fact, they’re the First legion and in that means a lot! Especially to them! The half that stayed loyal feel the need to hunt them because it’s their honour at stake and I completely get it

 

Also if we look back at old lore it’s not always just a fallen here or there some are just mercenaries, some joined the black legion or other war bands but lots are also in larger War bands at company strength with a ships so having companies to hunt them is also a necessity

 

 

I agree with everyone though the quicker Gav is removed from the first legion the better he’s almost ruined them for me many times Phil Kelly is just as bad, I’d like to see David Guymer tackle them more his lion novel was great! Or ADB his Savage weapons novella quite literally turn them from “Gavs meme team” to definitely loyal with genuine reasons for not being at Terra

Edited December 14, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Jings]

The timey-whimey nonsense is one of my issues with Fallen lore in the first place, though I didn't know about those larger incursions. It'd be nice if they focused on them more.

 

I think I'll leave it with the agreement that none of the BL authors that wrote the DA do a particularly good job with them. I need to pick up the books based on the Forgeworld book (Vraks?) which from what I've seen seems to be one of the more interesting takes on the DA. Don't wanna risk derailing the thread with my ritalin-fuelled diatribes haha.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Jings

[WARMASTER_]

The timey-whimey nonsense is one of my issues with Fallen lore in the first place, though I didn't know about those larger incursions. It'd be nice if they focused on them more.

.

I get you mate but the same time distortions are the only reason that any of the chaos factions are still going in current day so I just accept it as one of the main lore narratives, I guess the warp is quite literally supposed to be Hell lol

 

Also Jings one you might find interesting (even though it’s hard to find scraps) the Fallen caused the Nova terra interregnum in M35, which kind split the empire in two for a while.

 

I agree though, like other fratters has said some progression with their lore would be gratefully received

Edited December 14, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Medjugorje]

In my mind I dont like that the community split their forces into 3 factions - Imperium, Chaos and Xenos.

 

for me that division was always wrong. There is a way to ally a few forces but (and thats what I really love) GW decided to give every subfaction or faction better rules when they were played without other allies. So there is no Chaos side for me, I just see Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Daemons... 

 

Especially Xenos ( not even in the lore) 

[jaxom]

I think I'll leave it with the agreement that none of the BL authors that wrote the DA do a particularly good job with them. I need to pick up the books based on the Forgeworld book (Vraks?) which from what I've seen seems to be one of the more interesting takes on the DA. Don't wanna risk derailing the thread with my ritalin-fuelled diatribes haha.

 

Jings, I completely agree. I see it as connected back to Angels of Darkness. Gav Thorpe wrote the book as a way to explore who the Dark Angels were as a chapter, particularly if one separated out the Fallen. He's talked about it in interviews, it's the entire punch at the end of it, etc. I think, using the metric of what other people took from the book, he failed. Instead we got over a decade of "Lion/First Legion/Dark Angels were traitors!" memes and almost every other author double-downed on writing the Dark Angels either in relation to the Fallen, their secret getting out, or as two-dimensional paranoids. In my mind, the best Dark Angel fiction, one that really got me interested in the chapter, was the back of the 3rd edition codex supplement. One page, about fighting tyranids, did more to sell me on the Dark Angels than anything since then (other than Savage Weapons which I consider an outlier at this point).

 

EDIT: fixed a grammar issue.

Edited December 14, 2020 by jaxom

[Snazzy]

In my mind I dont like that the community split their forces into 3 factions - Imperium, Chaos and Xenos.

 

for me that division was always wrong. There is a way to ally a few forces but (and thats what I really love) GW decided to give every subfaction or faction better rules when they were played without other allies. So there is no Chaos side for me, I just see Chaos Space Marines, Death Guard, Daemons... 

 

Especially Xenos ( not even in the lore) 

 

Chaos is the one that still has rewards built into playing multiple subfactions.  Or, they have the least to lose, since Legion traits are mostly garbage.

 

I respect the idea of being stronger as a mono faction.  Without it, you are encouraged to do things like the Loyal 32 to game the faction allies rules for maximum effect.  This also takes different forms, as Space Marines require you to play purely as all Space Marines of a single Chapter.  Other things, like Imperium armies allow you to mix and match forces while having some benefits as long as you put them in different Detatchments.  You get the variety, but have to pay for it in CPs.  I just don't want to see the return of Tau/Eldar alliances on the table.  That almost ruined 40K for me.

[Lexington]

I see it as connected back to Angels of Darkness. Gav Thorpe wrote the book as a way to explore who the Dark Angels were as a chapter, particularly if one separated out the Fallen. He's talked about it in interviews, it's the entire punch at the end of it, etc. I think, using the metric of what other people took from the book, he failed.

 

Like the "Abaddon is a failure" meme, I really can't blame authors for the unfortunate tendency of many in the fan community to take the simplest, stupidest interpretation of 40K's background and rabidly canonize it.

 

Definitely agree about the DA in general, though. Really wish we'd see more about them that has absolutely nothing to do with the Fallen.

[BitsHammer]

I mean we know GW is terrible with numbers, but the 'few astartes turn an entire warzone' is just nonsensical to me. 1000 marines doing more than BILLIONS of troops? Billions?

 

I know thats the fluff, but its one of the more regrettable portions of it. A BILLION troops. A rusty spear through an Astartes throat, is still a likely dead Astartes.

 

 

The scale of the Imperium, it should be the Guard, and Imperial Navy that are the face of the setting, and hold the center of every single engagement.

I have some rough math of pre-rift Imperium putting the civilian pop at like 21 Quintillion people. Needless to say, the idea a mere Marine per planet numbers could ever hold the line in any real fashion was always the greatest failing ever put forth by Guilliman.

 

Good thing some chapters don't listen to the codex then I guess. ;)