What lore progression would you like to see?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I mean we know GW is terrible with numbers, but the 'few astartes turn an entire warzone' is just nonsensical to me. 1000 marines doing more than BILLIONS of troops? Billions?

 

I know thats the fluff, but its one of the more regrettable portions of it. A BILLION troops. A rusty spear through an Astartes throat, is still a likely dead Astartes. 

 

 

The scale of the Imperium, it should be the Guard, and Imperial Navy that are the face of the setting, and hold the center of every single engagement.

gotta get that rusty spear into the space marine's throat first...a bit difficult when they're like 8ft tall, clad in some of the best armor in the galaxy, and have super human speed, and reaction time...

[jaxom]

My Rule number 2 of enjoying 40k: be ready to ignore any logistics.

[BitsHammer]

My Rule number 2 of enjoying 40k: be ready to ignore any logistics.

That's just a good rule for most sci fi.

[Scribe]

gotta get that rusty spear into the space marine's throat first...a bit difficult when they're like 8ft tall, clad in some of the best armor in the galaxy, and have super human speed, and reaction time...

And? He's going to chew through 1000 enemies before he catches a bullet or a blade, or trips or is pulled down, or runs out of ammo?

 

The scale of the setting is absurd, and it renders Marines place of primacy within the setting as suspect if one attempts to look at it logically.

 

Like I get it, I really do, that's how the setting is written.

 

It's gotten to the point where you can't look in any direction and not see marines, and I get it,gotta shift that stock of Marines v2, but god DAMN am I ever sick of this :cuss they have been shoveling.

 

I could go a year without reading about a Primaris saving the day, and wouldn't miss it.

 

Remember Elder? Humble Guardsmen? Ork Boys?

 

Nah, we got Primaris Bikes to sell.

[Gederas]

gotta get that rusty spear into the space marine's throat first...a bit difficult when they're like 8ft tall, clad in some of the best armor in the galaxy, and have super human speed, and reaction time...

And? He's going to chew through 1000 enemies before he catches a bullet or a blade, or trips or is pulled down, or runs out of ammo?

 

The scale of the setting is absurd, and it renders Marines place of primacy within the setting as suspect if one attempts to look at it logically.

Yeah... About that...

Without his lightning-fast reflexes he could not possibly have covered all three routes to his position at the same time, and with the growing numbers of enemies, this task was taxing even for his capabilities. The barricade of corpses grew larger as he killed more and more of them. He clicked his last magazine in place.

 

'May I make each bolt count.'

 

Apharan fired each of his last rounds on semi-automatic. Each hit. Each killed, detonating inside heads, ripping off limps, and blowing out chests. But it was not enough. So many remained, and they charged on his position heedless of the bloody death all around them thanks to their self-inflicted deformities, literally blind to its choking gore and the stench incapable of penetrating their ansomia. Apharan hacked down foe after foe who clambered and stumbled over the barricade of corpses. His muscles filled with lactic acid at a rate that even his enhanced physiology struggles to filter. But he did not stop.

 

'Make my blade strike true.'

 

Apharan gave not one inch of ground. Those he could not bring down with his heavy combat knife, he punched and kicked. Cultists fell to the ground, their chests completely caved in by the power of his blows. They choked on their own blood even as their brothers and sisters trampled over them to reach him.

 

[...]

 

Time became a blur. Apharan could have battled for minutes, or even hours. His knife's edge began to full. He had driven it through hundreds of skulls, femurs, spines and crude armour, as well as robes made of tanned human skin. Each swing took that much more effort to drive, that much longer to complete. Each punch was no different.

 

Apharan thrust his knife to the hilt under a tattooed face before wrenching it out and swinging it at another foe. The edge passed through the traitor's right shoulder. Apharan drove it through his lungs and heart. He went to pull the blade away, but it was stuck, embedded in the cultist's ribs. Another bore down upon him as he struggles. Pivoting smoothly, Apharan kicked her in the knee, shattering the joint with a wet crunch. He brought his boot down on her head, crushing it with a wet crunch. As the next cultist came at him, he punched him so hard in the chest his fist broke out through the traitor's back in a violent burst of gore and spine parts. He releases his grip on the trapped knife to wrench the shattered body from his arm, pulling out chunks of bodily organs and cracked ribs as he freed himself.

 

For all of Apharan's genetically enhanced ferocity and skill, being entangled in the corpse had made him vulnerable. One cultist broke through and drive a flensing knife through a weak point in his armour. He roared in pain. His agony fueled him, and he finally pulled his trapped blade from the dead cultist it was embedded in. But it was too late. His defences had been broken. More cultists rammed sickle-like blades and shards of broken metal into hi. He continued to fight regardless.

 

[...]

 

Blood poured freely from a growing number of wounds. His strength began to fade. Apharan fell to one knee, still punching and stabbing and hacking at heretics with all the stubborn resolve that the Dark Angels were known for.

 

[...]

 

Apharan finally began to succumb, his blows weakening and slowing. The last he recalled before his eyes closed was the sight of traitors being blown apart into vlouds of red all about him, their spent life-force splattering over his prone form.

Source: Pain Aeterna, White Dwarf September 2019

 

But no, a genetically enhanced superhuman can't deal with hundreds of targets by themselves. Even though they're faster, stronger, have better reaction times to a degree that non-modified humans can't even react, etc.

 

Like, even in different series this is shown. In one of he Halo novels (Fall of Reach iirc), John-117 (Master Chief) gets into a fight with some ODSTs (Basically Halo's equivalent of Tempestus Scions) in a training room. In the fight, he outright kills one and disables the other three before anyone in the room can even react. And this is outside of his Power Armour he does that.

 

A recurring thing with super soldiers is they're faster than baseline humans and have better reaction times, so yes. I can definitely believe a single Space Marine could, in-lore, take on hundreds of enemies by themselves.

 

You're also ignoring that Astartes are also superhumanly durable. A spear in the neck? Probably not lethal unless it also severs their spinal column.

 

Remember Elder? Humble Guardsmen? Ork Boys?

You mean: Things that exist to get jobbed to show how good [insert book protagonist's group] is, or Actual cannon fodder the army and race?

 

 

You're also ignoring these facts:

1.  Astartes are genetically altered to be superhuman in both strength, speed and reaction time.
2. Shey are then stuck in powered armour, which enhances their abilities even further.
3. The combination of the above two render standard tactics a horde can use against an opponent highly ineffective due to them also having to fight the armor on top of the superhuman.
4. It's been shown in lore multiple times that marines can be overwhelmed but that opponent must be on the level of a guardsmen in number and quality of equipment as seen during Vraks and other locations. If this is not met then the marine is going to have a happy field day trashing things.
5. Marines are used as scalpels in terms of warfare use. They are sent to areas where a few of them can easily accomplish what is being asked of them because there is an entire branch of the Imperium's Military dedicated to figuring out where those places are. Your argument of them always being effective would be like saying a modern military is too effective because they never send in troops blind where they have a high chance of casualties or to places they are not trained to handle effectively.

    

    

    

Edited December 15, 2020 by Gederas

[Osteoclast]

And then Private Skippy blows away an entire Space Marine squad from 90 kilometers away by firing an MLRS salvo filled with DPICM bomblets, all hail the true king of battle. Logic and power armored super soldiers isn't really a thing; it's simply pulp adventure fiction (not that there's anything wrong with it).Everything is in service to the plot, but some plots are dumber than others (the aforementioned week long artillery bombardment of titan for instance).

 

I would love to see some non-combat stories regarding Space Marines though. For instance, we know that apothecaries have to do regular fine tuning of Marine's bodies; what's that look like? There's definitely story potential in a company lining up for their monthly mechadendrite up the butt. And some of the organs are "Great in combat, horrible for regular life;" for instance, I would imagine all sorts of filters installed in veins and arteries to prevent accidental strokes and other ischemia from Larraman cells. Dual hearts are a circulatory and electrical nightmare, the trials and frustrations of an apothecary trying to get a Marine's hearts to work properly could be fun.

[Scribe]

 

gotta get that rusty spear into the space marine's throat first...a bit difficult when they're like 8ft tall, clad in some of the best armor in the galaxy, and have super human speed, and reaction time...

And? He's going to chew through 1000 enemies before he catches a bullet or a blade, or trips or is pulled down, or runs out of ammo?

 

The scale of the setting is absurd, and it renders Marines place of primacy within the setting as suspect if one attempts to look at it logically.

Yeah... About that...

Without his lightning-fast reflexes he could not possibly have covered all three routes to his position at the same time, and with the growing numbers of enemies, this task was taxing even for his capabilities. The barricade of corpses grew larger as he killed more and more of them. He clicked his last magazine in place.

 

'May I make each bolt count.'

 

Apharan fired each of his last rounds on semi-automatic. Each hit. Each killed, detonating inside heads, ripping off limps, and blowing out chests. But it was not enough. So many remained, and they charged on his position heedless of the bloody death all around them thanks to their self-inflicted deformities, literally blind to its choking gore and the stench incapable of penetrating their ansomia. Apharan hacked down foe after foe who clambered and stumbled over the barricade of corpses. His muscles filled with lactic acid at a rate that even his enhanced physiology struggles to filter. But he did not stop.

 

'Make my blade strike true.'

 

Apharan gave not one inch of ground. Those he could not bring down with his heavy combat knife, he punched and kicked. Cultists fell to the ground, their chests completely caved in by the power of his blows. They choked on their own blood even as their brothers and sisters trampled over them to reach him.

 

[...]

 

Time became a blur. Apharan could have battled for minutes, or even hours. His knife's edge began to full. He had driven it through hundreds of skulls, femurs, spines and crude armour, as well as robes made of tanned human skin. Each swing took that much more effort to drive, that much longer to complete. Each punch was no different.

 

Apharan thrust his knife to the hilt under a tattooed face before wrenching it out and swinging it at another foe. The edge passed through the traitor's right shoulder. Apharan drove it through his lungs and heart. He went to pull the blade away, but it was stuck, embedded in the cultist's ribs. Another bore down upon him as he struggles. Pivoting smoothly, Apharan kicked her in the knee, shattering the joint with a wet crunch. He brought his boot down on her head, crushing it with a wet crunch. As the next cultist came at him, he punched him so hard in the chest his fist broke out through the traitor's back in a violent burst of gore and spine parts. He releases his grip on the trapped knife to wrench the shattered body from his arm, pulling out chunks of bodily organs and cracked ribs as he freed himself.

 

For all of Apharan's genetically enhanced ferocity and skill, being entangled in the corpse had made him vulnerable. One cultist broke through and drive a flensing knife through a weak point in his armour. He roared in pain. His agony fueled him, and he finally pulled his trapped blade from the dead cultist it was embedded in. But it was too late. His defences had been broken. More cultists rammed sickle-like blades and shards of broken metal into hi. He continued to fight regardless.

 

[...]

 

Blood poured freely from a growing number of wounds. His strength began to fade. Apharan fell to one knee, still punching and stabbing and hacking at heretics with all the stubborn resolve that the Dark Angels were known for.

 

[...]

 

Apharan finally began to succumb, his blows weakening and slowing. The last he recalled before his eyes closed was the sight of traitors being blown apart into vlouds of red all about him, their spent life-force splattering over his prone form.

Source: Pain Aeterna, White Dwarf September 2019

 

But no, a genetically enhanced superhuman can't deal with hundreds of targets by themselves. Even though they're faster, stronger, have better reaction times to a degree that non-modified humans can't even react, etc.

 

Like, even in different series this is shown. In one of he Halo novels (Fall of Reach iirc), John-117 (Master Chief) gets into a fight with some ODSTs (Basically Halo's equivalent of Tempestus Scions) in a training room. In the fight, he outright kills one and disables the other three before anyone in the room can even react. And this is outside of his Power Armour he does that.

 

A recurring thing with super soldiers is they're faster than baseline humans and have better reaction times, so yes. I can definitely believe a single Space Marine could, in-lore, take on hundreds of enemies by themselves.

 

You're also ignoring that Astartes are also superhumanly durable. A spear in the neck? Probably not lethal unless it also severs their spinal column.

 

Remember Elder? Humble Guardsmen? Ork Boys?

You mean: Things that exist to get jobbed to show how good [insert book protagonist's group] is, or Actual cannon fodder the army and race?

 

 

You're also ignoring these facts:

1.  Astartes are genetically altered to be superhuman in both strength, speed and reaction time.
2. Shey are then stuck in powered armour, which enhances their abilities even further.
3. The combination of the above two render standard tactics a horde can use against an opponent highly ineffective due to them also having to fight the armor on top of the superhuman.
4. It's been shown in lore multiple times that marines can be overwhelmed but that opponent must be on the level of a guardsmen in number and quality of equipment as seen during Vraks and other locations. If this is not met then the marine is going to have a happy field day trashing things.
5. Marines are used as scalpels in terms of warfare use. They are sent to areas where a few of them can easily accomplish what is being asked of them because there is an entire branch of the Imperium's Military dedicated to figuring out where those places are. Your argument of them always being effective would be like saying a modern military is too effective because they never send in troops blind where they have a high chance of casualties or to places they are not trained to handle effectively.

    

    

    

 

 

Literally all of this simply proves my point lol.

 

I dont care. I'm utter fed up with Marines, especially loyalist Marines that have for over a decade been the marketing and attention hogs for GW.

 

I GET IT.

 

I DONT LIKE IT.

 

That is all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

And then Private Skippy blows away an entire Space Marine squad from 90 kilometers away by firing an MLRS salvo filled with DPICM bomblets, all hail the true king of battle. Logic and power armored super soldiers isn't really a thing; it's simply pulp adventure fiction (not that there's anything wrong with it).Everything is in service to the plot, but some plots are dumber than others (the aforementioned week long artillery bombardment of titan for instance).

 

I would love to see some non-combat stories regarding Space Marines though. For instance, we know that apothecaries have to do regular fine tuning of Marine's bodies; what's that look like? There's definitely story potential in a company lining up for their monthly mechadendrite up the butt. And some of the organs are "Great in combat, horrible for regular life;" for instance, I would imagine all sorts of filters installed in veins and arteries to prevent accidental strokes and other ischemia from Larraman cells. Dual hearts are a circulatory and electrical nightmare, the trials and frustrations of an apothecary trying to get a Marine's hearts to work properly could be fun.

just curious what's the payload of a bomblet from a DPICM?

After all in lore marines and their armor stand up to what I figure is a scaled up mk19 (heavy bolter) pretty well.

And then Private Skippy blows away an entire Space Marine squad from 90 kilometers away by firing an MLRS salvo filled with DPICM bomblets, all hail the true king of battle. Logic and power armored super soldiers isn't really a thing; it's simply pulp adventure fiction (not that there's anything wrong with it).Everything is in service to the plot, but some plots are dumber than others (the aforementioned week long artillery bombardment of titan for instance).

 

I would love to see some non-combat stories regarding Space Marines though. For instance, we know that apothecaries have to do regular fine tuning of Marine's bodies; what's that look like? There's definitely story potential in a company lining up for their monthly mechadendrite up the butt. And some of the organs are "Great in combat, horrible for regular life;" for instance, I would imagine all sorts of filters installed in veins and arteries to prevent accidental strokes and other ischemia from Larraman cells. Dual hearts are a circulatory and electrical nightmare, the trials and frustrations of an apothecary trying to get a Marine's hearts to work properly could be fun.

Or an art book featuring all sorts of BA produced art work

[WARMASTER_]

The scale of the setting is absurd, and it renders Marines place of primacy within the setting as suspect if one attempts to look at it logically.

 

Like I get it, I really do, that's how the setting is written.

 

It's gotten to the point where you can't look in any direction and not see marines, and I get it,gotta shift that stock of Marines v2, but god DAMN am I ever sick of this :cuss they have been shoveling.

 

I could go a year without reading about a Primaris saving the day, and wouldn't miss it.

 

Remember Elder? Humble Guardsmen? Ork Boys?

 

Nah, we got Primaris Bikes to sell.

I mean your first mistake is looking at a Sc-Fi Fantasy setting “logically” they fly ships through literal Hell to get places in 40K lol

 

Its sounds like your suffering from Faction fatigue because 40K has always been about marines to a degree and it hasn’t really ever increased or decreased

 

I’d agree with you but the numbers just don’t add up to what you’re saying we’re getting loads of Xenos / Chaos / Imperium releases! Even in this marine wave we’ve had an entire Necron range redo with loads of extra new kits

 

Black library apart from HH is a complete mix of factions, Horror and crime barely touch astartes! Main series 40k also mostly a mix of factions and isn’t astartes dominated (the longest running and best received series is about a Guard regiment)

 

Supplements apart from astartes having more factions is completely even these days and factions always get new rules, lore and often a splash release ever edition

 

The only place SM truly dominate is advertisement,

 

They also received larger model releases because releasing a single kit is releasing a kit for multiple factions (Chapters) so it’s a no brainer (they’re also by a long stretch the most popular faction so again no brainer) But at the speed we’re seeing full range refreshes and splash releases now I can’t see the “Marines is all we see mentality”

 

So while yes I totally agree SM have and always will be “The” faction it’s not like it’s all we see as you describe

[Snazzy]

 

 

Like the "Abaddon is a failure" meme, I really can't blame authors for the unfortunate tendency of many in the fan community to take the simplest, stupidest interpretation of 40K's background and rabidly canonize it.

 

Definitely agree about the DA in general, though. Really wish we'd see more about them that has absolutely nothing to do with the Fallen.

 

 

A reminder that the Failbaddon meme predates the opening of Great Rift and was accurate.  There were a number of years after the Eye of Terror campaign, which was perceived as being artificially slanted in favor of Chaos, and was still inconclusive.  One can argue that GW wrote a lot of fluff to retroactively address this meme, including the insistence that previous Black Crusades were not outright losses. 

[NiftyVT]

I just want Dante to cross over. Only reason being is that I want a new model. My old metal Dante is well. . .really old. 

[Scribe]

 

They also received larger model releases because releasing a single kit is releasing a kit for multiple factions (Chapters) so it’s a no brainer (they’re also by a long stretch the most popular faction so again no brainer) But at the speed we’re seeing full range refreshes and splash releases now I can’t see the “Marines is all we see mentality”

 

'...speed we're seeing full range refreshes....'

 

Excuse me? Speed?

 

While GW is so busy pumping out a full second line of Loyalist Marines, Berzerkers have a 20 year old Kit. Eldar have multiple. While swathes of the range for anything not Loyalist Marine, are ancient. How many core tactical marine or primaris kits did we see before we even got the updated CSM standard box? How many years was that?

 

Speed? Imagine if we didnt have a completely unnecessary reboot of Space Marines. We could actually have the rest of the game updated.

[WARMASTER_]

I didn’t say how long did you have to wait? I said the speed they are doing it now didn’t I... And I’m not wrong they’re dropping full ranges faster than ever!!

 

You’re acting like marines is an entirely new range which is also a joke frankly! There’s a swathe of loyalist kits that are just as old! First born have Bikes, Rhino, Predator, Land raider, Scout bikes, command squad, land speeder most of the first born named and generic characters are fine cast some are well over 20 years old and are main characters in the lore! Saying only Xenos / Chaos have old models is factually wrong

[Scribe]

I didn’t say how long did you have to wait? I said the speed they are doing it now didn’t I... And I’m not wrong they’re dropping full ranges faster than ever!!

 

You’re acting like marines is an entirely new range which is also a joke frankly! There’s a swathe of loyalist kits that are just as old! First born have Bikes, Rhino, Predator, Land raider, Scout bikes, command squad, land speeder most of the first born named and generic characters are fine cast some are well over 20 years old and are main characters in the lore! Saying only Xenos / Chaos have old models is factually wrong

 

And the implication that Imperial Marines have not been the golden child for decades from a lore, marketing, and model release (and rules updates) point of view is comical. To even pretend that there is any kind of equivalency between Marine range(s) and what everyone else has had to endure in terms of poor rules, models, or attention, is an absolute joke.

 

You wont be changing my opinion, and I'm certainly not attempting to change yours. I stated what I want, because I think how it is, sucks. Thats it, thats all.

[Jings]

 

I see it as connected back to Angels of Darkness. Gav Thorpe wrote the book as a way to explore who the Dark Angels were as a chapter, particularly if one separated out the Fallen. He's talked about it in interviews, it's the entire punch at the end of it, etc. I think, using the metric of what other people took from the book, he failed.

 

Like the "Abaddon is a failure" meme, I really can't blame authors for the unfortunate tendency of many in the fan community to take the simplest, stupidest interpretation of 40K's background and rabidly canonize it.

 

Definitely agree about the DA in general, though. Really wish we'd see more about them that has absolutely nothing to do with the Fallen.

 

 

There's a really cool excerpt from an old Codex you should hunt for about a Dark Angels Tactical Squad being sent to support an Ogryn Auxiliary force that's pretty awesome and gives a good idea of their general attitude, but from what I've seen pieces like that are few and far between. 

[Scribe]

That the one where they either refuse or are unhappy about ab-humans? 

[Jings]

That's the one. They lose one or two guys, find out they were sent there to assist Ogryns and just leave haha

[Lexington]

A reminder that the Failbaddon meme predates the opening of Great Rift and was accurate.

 

It absolutely was not. I've been playing 40K since right around the time Abaddon was introduced to the setting, and the fiction's always been almost painfully clear regarding what he was up to. The Imperium's a gargantuan, galaxy-spanning empire with trillions upon trillions of military assets at its disposal. Defeating that isn't something you do in a weekend. The fandom's juvenile need to tally victories in order to declare definitive winners and losers is sad and misguided, but it ain't GW's fault.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

A reminder that the Failbaddon meme predates the opening of Great Rift and was accurate.

It absolutely was not. I've been playing 40K since right around the time Abaddon was introduced to the setting, and the fiction's always been almost painfully clear regarding what he was up to. The Imperium's a gargantuan, galaxy-spanning empire with trillions upon trillions of military assets at its disposal. Defeating that isn't something you do in a weekend. The fandom's juvenile need to tally victories in order to declare definitive winners and losers is sad and misguided, but it ain't GW's fault.

I’m really with Lexington on this one, it was the ad nauseam “Failbaddon” meme’s that completely shifted perspective of Abaddon because lore wise he’s always been the biggest threat of the 40K setting

 

Even the more recent lore drives into his character were pre great rift, Talon of Horus was 2014

[Snazzy]

 

A reminder that the Failbaddon meme predates the opening of Great Rift and was accurate.

 

It absolutely was not. I've been playing 40K since right around the time Abaddon was introduced to the setting, and the fiction's always been almost painfully clear regarding what he was up to. The Imperium's a gargantuan, galaxy-spanning empire with trillions upon trillions of military assets at its disposal. Defeating that isn't something you do in a weekend. The fandom's juvenile need to tally victories in order to declare definitive winners and losers is sad and misguided, but it ain't GW's fault.

 

 

Creating a void to be filled by snickering is.  The retcons are the proof.

[BitsHammer]

I was thinking about the original thread premise, and I sincerely hope that GW's nugget about psychic STCs get brought into the game. Psyker Ad-Mech stuff could be hilarious.

 

As for the Marine bloat, it's always been a bit of a problem. I fee like it's just more concentrated on a Marine centric board, immediately following a Marine release that was largely designed to put a third leg on the Primaris design and make them fully functional as a stand alone Marine sub-faction (at least until they Legends the Firstborn, which to be honest, needs to happen. That book has over ninety datasheets, some stuff needs to start going).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I didn’t say how long did you have to wait? I said the speed they are doing it now didn’t I... And I’m not wrong they’re dropping full ranges faster than ever!!

 

You’re acting like marines is an entirely new range which is also a joke frankly! There’s a swathe of loyalist kits that are just as old! First born have Bikes, Rhino, Predator, Land raider, Scout bikes, command squad, land speeder most of the first born named and generic characters are fine cast some are well over 20 years old and are main characters in the lore! Saying only Xenos / Chaos have old models is factually wrong

And the implication that Imperial Marines have not been the golden child for decades from a lore, marketing, and model release (and rules updates) point of view is comical. To even pretend that there is any kind of equivalency between Marine range(s) and what everyone else has had to endure in terms of poor rules, models, or attention, is an absolute joke.

 

You wont be changing my opinion, and I'm certainly not attempting to change yours. I stated what I want, because I think how it is, sucks. Thats it, thats all.

no one claimed any of the claims you said are being made...

 

Space marines always have been and always will be the poster boys, with UM being poster boys of the poster boys since 4th and will likely be for the rest of the hobby's future...literally no one is arguing or denying that, but yes since 8th it seems there's been a massive update of many different macro-factions. Every kit in each range? No, but that hasn't happened for space marines either, so the complaint you are making is pretty pointless.

 

Not trying to convince you shouldn't be tired of space marines, but maybe you'll understand you're free to be tired of the status quo but your logic and reasoning is flawed.

[jaxom]

Don't know how this one slipped past me: I'm looking forward to book three of ADB's Black Legion trilogy. I'm wondering if it will tie into how the Astronomicon source on Terra got wrecked before the Rift fully opened.

[WARMASTER_]

Don't know how this one slipped past me: I'm looking forward to book three of ADB's Black Legion trilogy. I'm wondering if it will tie into how the Astronomicon source on Terra got wrecked before the Rift fully opened.

 

Could be wrong I can’t remember 100% anymore as I read it some time ago. But In Hollow Mountain it had got wrecked because the rift was opened at Cadia (+ everyone inside the astronomican went crazy and started eating one another) so even though it hadn’t visually reached Terra yet the damage was so severe to the warp it diminished the light enough for it to fail + the fact the throne is failing anyway

 

Might be a good reason for iskandar to slip away though under the cover of chaos

 

I’m excited to see either way

Edited December 16, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Jings]

As for the Marine bloat, it's always been a bit of a problem. I fee like it's just more concentrated on a Marine centric board, immediately following a Marine release that was largely designed to put a third leg on the Primaris design and make them fully functional as a stand alone Marine sub-faction (at least until they Legends the Firstborn, which to be honest, needs to happen. That book has over ninety datasheets, some stuff needs to start going).

 

I cannot overstate how bad an idea it would be for Games Workshop to Legends Firstborn units. They're the ones that have pidgeon-holed themselves into this bloat issue, and it would be a fundamental betrayal to squat what has for years been the most popular army. 

 

A far more elegant solution would be to return to the basic Tactical/Assault/Devastator Squadrons (or whatever they changed it to) and build the squads from there. 

 

For example: 

 

Tactical Squad

- Take Phobos Armour option

- Take Infiltrator role

Infiltrator Tactical Squad

 

or

 

Tactical Squad

- Take Firstborn Option

- Select (if any) Weapon upgrades

There's your  Firstborn Tactical Squad

 

or 

 

Assault Squad

- Take Gravis w/Jump Pack option

- Select weapon available to armour config

There's your Inceptor Assault Squad

 

or

Devastator Squad

- Take Tacticus option

- Choose Jump Pack wargear

- Take Autocannon  

There's your Suppressor Devastator Squadron 

 

The post-8th propensity to make Space Marine units self-contained datasheets with little-to-no customization was a mistake made by GW that long-time players should not be punished for. I 100% agree they should reduce bloat, but the invalidation of hundreds of pounds and years of work should not be the avenue through which that aim should be achieved. Can't speak for everyone here, but I'd drop the game out of principle and I'm not even a primarily a Loyalist player.