What lore progression would you like to see?

[Scribe]

Going to happen eventually. The Primaris is a range reboot, just a matter of time.

[WARMASTER_]

Scribes right eventually it will be addressed and they will be most likely be dropped but I doubt it’ll be for at least 2 editions the timeline will have to move forward or they’d at least have to fill out the range and Rubicon some big characters.

[BitsHammer]

I'm not saying they have to fill it all at once, but they can do it in stages. Start with Finecast and 3rd ed models next book, then in stages from there.

 

I don't think GW is going to merge datasheets more than they have with relic Terminators.

[Scribe]

Have an old Jes original metal Chapter Master? Once those are all done, as BladeofVengeance alludes to...yep.

 

Just makes no sense. We all knew what Primaris represented.

 

Who's left?

 

DA

BA

 

Ultras are done.

Fists are done.

IH are done.

RG are done.

Salamanders?

Wolves got Ragnar.

 

I don't know, it's not as far as people may think.

[Jings]

I can foresee a drop in support, sure. But a complete abandonment without providing either some kind of "Legacy Astartes" supplement or a refresh of Firstborn units into new Primaris variants does not seem to be a viable way forward and not a particularly difficult one to implement. Extra sprues added to existing Primaris Tacticus units would be able to sort that. 

 

Intercessors? An additional sprue with special and heavy weapons alongside Sergeant options. Assault Intercessors? A sprue containing jump packs, alternate torso fronts for their "straps" and missing Sergeant options. Devastators? An additional sprue for Hellblasters or Intercessors with Heavy Weapon and Sergeant options. Terminators? Simply an redo the existing kit. Bikes? An additional sprue for special weapons and sergeant options (if a full MPPK is ever released). Dreadnoughts? Again, an additional weapon sprue could be used for missing options, as well as alternate armour pieces to represent the Ironclad and Venerable variants. Vanguard and Sternguard? A Firstborn Veteran kit or dedicated Veteran Intercessor sprue. Scouts? New kit. Centurions? I'd like to say "who cares", but even then, an updated kit that makes them a unit of smaller Invictor-style battlesuits would do the trick.

 

All of these could easily be integrated into the current range with minimal work and encourage consumers to "double dip" into already released kits. Games Workshop would be utterly mental to simply scrap what is already there without giving them viable replacements while still being able to cash-in. The community's reaction to the introduction of Primaris, outside of the scale increase, has been lukewarm at best and outright hostile at worst. I would be shocked if they were to double-down on that by scrapping the OG units without providing some sort of alternative. 

 

Just look at Age of Sigmar, and to a lesser extent the Indomitus releases and the fact they're already retconning the Dark Imperium series. I suspect the Primaris range was in development prior to Rountree's appointment (based on AoS) and there is a degree of course correction taking place as a result. The return to the Old World for WHFB shows the difficulties that have arisen as a direct result of player's response to their system and setting being significantly altered and with 40K I don't think it's any different. Indomitus releases have been primarily Primaris analogues and updates that, frankly, allow for a level of proxying of Firstborn units as Primaris. 

 

Almost all extended media centered around Astartes features Firstborn Marines and Primaris have been around long enough for that to not be the case which is indicative of a deliberate decision not to do so. I don't think Games Workshop are as confident with their "reboot" as many here seem to believe and I cannot see these Legacy units being utterly scrapped until they have all seen at least some kind of replacement that would effectively allow for old armies to be used in proxy. I don't think the backlash would be worth it. 

[Scribe]

So your saying 'until my old marines can fully proxy as Primaris it won't happen'?

 

That's...probably a fair assessment. A few issues remain I guess but I'm not nearly invested in it enough to look and list.

[Jings]

Pretty much mate. As you and others have said, the great replacement is coming. I just don't see GW throwing out the baby with the bathwater in regards to legacy units. Even if it's a case of Primaris Slagginators with Lascannons or Interrupters with Jetpacks and Chainswords, there'll be some sort of equivalent that will replace most older kits/options before we see Firstborn erased in their entirety. That in and of itself will allow for at least some amount of proxying of older models as a result. 

 

There are of course other more niche difficulties for the major sub-factions, but they again could simply be resolved with updated Primaris kit refreshes eh. 

 

I'm willing to be proven wrong, and will put my money where my mouth is in that case. But with the advent of Firstborn receiving their updated statline (even if that is simply to maintain a level of consistency to allow Chaos Marines to receive 2-wounds) and the Indomitus release stepping further into the direction of updating classic units, I'm remaining relatively optimistic. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Jings

[WARMASTER_]

I see the more likely outcome that they just keep releasing Primaris kits until there’s enough weight of models that they can stand as a codex alone, as I said before probably 2 more editions yet it won’t be quick

 

I don’t foresee the “you can make these into tactical’s or Devastators” though the Primaris line has a very different “30k” style structure and I can’t see them moving backwards with it just releasing more to fill voids

 

What I do foresee is some form of “Warhammer Old World” game build around the first kits so we can still ply the lore historic battles, Badab War etc

[Jings]

That's what I reckon will happen too, with the gaps of what can currently only be done by Firstborn being filled with Primaris equivalents, likely with Mark X armour variants to provide a modicum of superficial difference. 

 

The idea of combining those units into broad Tactical/Assault/Devastators datasheets wasn't so much a prediction of what will happen, more a wishlist of how I'd like to return to the tactical diversity approach of Marines of yore and streamline the abundance of different units currently available. I struggle to reconcile the swap to Heresy-style unit formations with the Primaris roster given the decades of lore that preceded their introduction. Astartes have always been billed as Flexibility: The Faction and I really dislike the removal of options in favour of gameplay efficiency that seems to be taking place. It's gameplay stepping on lore, and as someone primarily concerned with narrative over competitive gameplay, it remains a thorn in my side. For example, the classic ten man Tactical Squad with a Flamer and Missile Launcher isn't the most efficient load out in-game compared to a unit equipped with only bolters, or flamers, or missile launchers, but it makes a lot more sense within the universe itself for a military unit to have such diversity. 

 

There were whispers of consolidating the Firstborn and Horus Heresy ranges into a Historical-style game set around the Scouring, although I would imagine they'd aim for the distinction to be the entirety of the pre-Rift setting rather than focused around M32 if that were the case, given the amount of Astartes units that were, in lore, rediscovered over the ten millennia since the birth of the Imperium. 

[Arkangilos]

One things for sure, we don’t need Sanguinius returning, an updated model of the Sanguinor will do just fine.

[WARMASTER_]

That's what I reckon will happen too, with the gaps of what can currently only be done by Firstborn being filled with Primaris equivalents, likely with Mark X armour variants to provide a modicum of superficial difference.

 

The idea of combining those units into broad Tactical/Assault/Devastators datasheets wasn't so much a prediction of what will happen, more a wishlist of how I'd like to return to the tactical diversity approach of Marines of yore and streamline the abundance of different units currently available. I struggle to reconcile the swap to Heresy-style unit formations with the Primaris roster given the decades of lore that preceded their introduction. Astartes have always been billed as Flexibility: The Faction and I really dislike the removal of options in favour of gameplay efficiency that seems to be taking place. It's gameplay stepping on lore, and as someone primarily concerned with narrative over competitive gameplay, it remains a thorn in my side. For example, the classic ten man Tactical Squad with a Flamer and Missile Launcher isn't the most efficient load out in-game compared to a unit equipped with only bolters, or flamers, or missile launchers, but it makes a lot more sense within the universe itself for a military unit to have such diversity.

 

There were whispers of consolidating the Firstborn and Horus Heresy ranges into a Historical-style game set around the Scouring, although I would imagine they'd aim for the distinction to be the entirety of the pre-Rift setting rather than focused around M32 if that were the case, given the amount of Astartes units that were, in lore, rediscovered over the ten millennia since the birth of the Imperium.

I feel you on options I’ve always been a narrative gamer over a competitive myself and playing DA I’ve always fielded Plasma Cannon/Gun/Pistol squads, but I also see the utility of having mono armed squad with support squads (Hellblasters + Eradicators) like in the heresy. it feels just as flexible in my mind so I’m happy, but I do see the complaint

 

Yeh they’d definitely have to make it up to the 13th Black crusade as may units weren’t discovered until 36 and beyond, I’d like to see it done though would give me more reason to play the little guys

[BitsHammer]

One thought that crossed my mind is that they could keep most of Firstborn kits around as Inquisitorial Agents in Power Armour and take advantage of the scale difference to present them as humans in power armour instead of Astartes.

 

Don't think they'll do it, but it did cross my mind as a solution for keeping those kits relevant in the game going forward.

 

That said, I don't think GW has to make Primaris 1:1 wargear wise with Firstborn before they legends out the Firstborn. If anything, having Firstborn still in the game may be what's preventing us from seeing more classic wargear options for now (such as missile launchers). We'll see, but as someone building a Black Templar army (an army with only Firstborn special character and unit options mind you) I'd prefer they rip the bandage off sooner rather than later. Teasing this out over several editions will hurt more of the community than just putting Firstborn into Legends sooner.

 

It also makes Marines a lot harder to balance for with so many datasheets.

[jaxom]

 

I feel you on options I’ve always been a narrative gamer over a competitive myself and playing DA I’ve always fielded Plasma Cannon/Gun/Pistol squads, but I also see the utility of having mono armed squad with support squads (Hellblasters + Eradicators) like in the heresy. it feels just as flexible in my mind so I’m happy, but I do see the complaint

 

 

I've recently been watching some videos about how the Soviet army reorganized their rifle platoons as the war went on. The thing that struck me was how specialized weapon squads were integrated into the structure with the rifle squads. Legion structure was similar, but then Chapters adopted tactical squads. I think that made sense; a squad or two with a fast response vessel and armory options would be viable for most of Imperial history at putting out hot spots. The challenges of the Indomitus Crusade and the Rift are different. Chapters can't cut it alone anymore. Guilliman is a de facto legion master for the Ultramarines and their successors. His appointment of Dante as regent has effectively made Dante a de facto legion master for the Sanguinian chapters. I'd love to see more exploring chapters having to wrestle with the transition from an independent force that rarely deploys beyond demi-companies to being one among many fully deployed chapters within a larger, multi-chapter force.

[Snazzy]

One thought that crossed my mind is that they could keep most of Firstborn kits around as Inquisitorial Agents in Power Armour and take advantage of the scale difference to present them as humans in power armour instead of Astartes.

 

Don't think they'll do it, but it did cross my mind as a solution for keeping those kits relevant in the game going forward.

 

That said, I don't think GW has to make Primaris 1:1 wargear wise with Firstborn before they legends out the Firstborn. If anything, having Firstborn still in the game may be what's preventing us from seeing more classic wargear options for now (such as missile launchers). We'll see, but as someone building a Black Templar army (an army with only Firstborn special character and unit options mind you) I'd prefer they rip the bandage off sooner rather than later. Teasing this out over several editions will hurt more of the community than just putting Firstborn into Legends sooner.

 

It also makes Marines a lot harder to balance for with so many datasheets.

 

I'd argue that Primaris are an intentional rebuke of the Codex Astartes model of mixed weapon squads.  Primaris Sergeants don't even have the same level of weapon options as their Firstborn counterparts.  When the Great Replacement comes the old model will go with it.

 

One of the things that i think will give Firstborn some extended lifespan is the Chapter specific models.  Things like Thunderwolf Cavalry and Sanguinary Guards.

[BitsHammer]

 

One thought that crossed my mind is that they could keep most of Firstborn kits around as Inquisitorial Agents in Power Armour and take advantage of the scale difference to present them as humans in power armour instead of Astartes.

 

Don't think they'll do it, but it did cross my mind as a solution for keeping those kits relevant in the game going forward.

 

That said, I don't think GW has to make Primaris 1:1 wargear wise with Firstborn before they legends out the Firstborn. If anything, having Firstborn still in the game may be what's preventing us from seeing more classic wargear options for now (such as missile launchers). We'll see, but as someone building a Black Templar army (an army with only Firstborn special character and unit options mind you) I'd prefer they rip the bandage off sooner rather than later. Teasing this out over several editions will hurt more of the community than just putting Firstborn into Legends sooner.

 

It also makes Marines a lot harder to balance for with so many datasheets.

 

I'd argue that Primaris are an intentional rebuke of the Codex Astartes model of mixed weapon squads.  Primaris Sergeants don't even have the same level of weapon options as their Firstborn counterparts.  When the Great Replacement comes the old model will go with it.

 

One of the things that i think will give Firstborn some extended lifespan is the Chapter specific models.  Things like Thunderwolf Cavalry and Sanguinary Guards.

 

I agree that the Primaris are a move back to a Legion sort of formation, paired with "equip for the mission" sort of approach that has chapters changing wargear more often and flexibly over fixing themselves into more rigid units that add or remove a couple of weapons. The army, not the unit is built for the mission.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the original chapters post the Scouring were organized in a similar fashion if I'm honest.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm interested in the lore progression on the Primaris-only chapters. In the SW supplement, the Wolfspear end up getting supplementary reinforcements from the Space Wolves. Are they now not Primaris-only?

 

I'd like to see how they address the Unforgiven chapters as well. Do they get officers from the existing Unforgiven chapters? As of now, there's absolutely no way you could 'have' a Deathwing or Ravenwing as an Ultima founding chapter, so I'm interested to see how that gets resolved. You can have units in both, but you can't actually field them completely. Do these chapters get seconded to existing ones and trained?

Edited December 18, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[ThePenitentOne]

If old marines are ever squatted, the thing I will miss the most is tanks that look like tanks instead of hovering boxes.

 

When I look at Primaris Tanks, I'm reminded of how much I hated the second Voltron.

 

In a practical sense, I understand why a hover vehicle is such a good option for a force that has to deploy in every conceivable terrain type, but Imperial hover tanks just look terrible to me.

 

I also hate the look of flying Primaris marines, even though I know that the tech they use to jump is more realistic than the old jetpack look.

 

But other than scale and options, Old Marine vs Primaris marine is similar enough that I sometimes have trouble distinguishing between them when they appear in photos that don't provide side by side comparison.

[BitsHammer]

Honestly I like that the hover tanks take the chassis shape of the old tanks and pair it with a bit of Landspeeder instead of being a completely new design.

 

That said, still waiting for the assault tank with a front hatch.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If old marines are ever squatted, the thing I will miss the most is tanks that look like tanks instead of hovering boxes.

 

When I look at Primaris Tanks, I'm reminded of how much I hated the second Voltron.

 

In a practical sense, I understand why a hover vehicle is such a good option for a force that has to deploy in every conceivable terrain type, but Imperial hover tanks just look terrible to me.

 

I also hate the look of flying Primaris marines, even though I know that the tech they use to jump is more realistic than the old jetpack look.

 

But other than scale and options, Old Marine vs Primaris marine is similar enough that I sometimes have trouble distinguishing between them when they appear in photos that don't provide side by side comparison.

first born tanks just look like rolling boxes...and particularly in the 3rd era they didn't look like real tanks at all...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Honestly I like that the hover tanks take the chassis shape of the old tanks and pair it with a bit of Landspeeder instead of being a completely new design.

 

That said, still waiting for the assault tank with a front hatch.

...unless you're breaching a wall, or hitting a beach, a front hatch doesn't make sense. I get this is 40k here we're talking about, but you're literally just walking into fire with a front ramp/hatch...

[BitsHammer]

 

Honestly I like that the hover tanks take the chassis shape of the old tanks and pair it with a bit of Landspeeder instead of being a completely new design.

 

That said, still waiting for the assault tank with a front hatch.

...unless you're breaching a wall, or hitting a beach, a front hatch doesn't make sense. I get this is 40k here we're talking about, but you're literally just walking into fire with a front ramp/hatch...

Breaching fortifications is very Astartes. Need I point out the CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM as an example? For the record I basically just want that as a tank.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

Honestly I like that the hover tanks take the chassis shape of the old tanks and pair it with a bit of Landspeeder instead of being a completely new design.

 

That said, still waiting for the assault tank with a front hatch.

...unless you're breaching a wall, or hitting a beach, a front hatch doesn't make sense. I get this is 40k here we're talking about, but you're literally just walking into fire with a front ramp/hatch...

Breaching fortifications is very Astartes. Need I point out the CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM as an example? For the record I basically just want that as a tank.

...that just doesn't make sense...a turret would just get in the way of breaking through what ever it is they're trying to breach.

But this is 40k after all...

 

 

Honestly I like that the hover tanks take the chassis shape of the old tanks and pair it with a bit of Landspeeder instead of being a completely new design.

 

That said, still waiting for the assault tank with a front hatch.

...unless you're breaching a wall, or hitting a beach, a front hatch doesn't make sense. I get this is 40k here we're talking about, but you're literally just walking into fire with a front ramp/hatch...

Breaching fortifications is very Astartes. Need I point out the CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM as an example? For the record I basically just want that as a tank.

...that just doesn't make sense...a turret would just get in the way of breaking through what ever it is they're trying to breach.

But this is 40k after all...

[BitsHammer]

I think you misunderstand what I was thinking. I was talking about one of these: 

 

But as a grav tank that rams into a breach and unloads angry Astartes.

[Lexington]

Conceptually speaking, isn't that pretty much just the Mastadon?

 

[BitsHammer]

Conceptually speaking, isn't that pretty much just the Mastadon?

 

Okay, but make it FLOAT.