Dawn of Fire & Dark Imperium Timeline Change

[b1soul]

In Guy Haley's interview on Warhammer Community about Dark Imperium 3: Godblight, he reveals that they are shifting Dark Imperium to 12 years after the kick-off of Indomitus, rather than the original 112 years after the kick-off.

 

I was always felt it was strange for BL to push Dark Imperium well over a century after the Crusade left Terra...to the extent that Plague War was the next big thing after the conclusion of the 112-year Indomitus Crusade.

 

But now I feel like this is a bit of a swing in the opposite direction:

 

I think the contraction from 112 years to 12 years is rather extreme.

 

I would've gone with something like...between 30 to 40 years as the first phase of Indomitus. Enough time for a lot of MAJOR developments to have occurred (including Legion-scale campaigning and tight bonding among the Unnumbered Sons before their dispersal), but not so long that we feel BL skipped over more than a century of pivotal, post-Rift Imperial history.

 

Kinda think making it 12 years is a bit wonky. How you guys feel?

 

EDIT: I think the idea in Dark Imperium was that the Unnumbered Sons were essentially tightly knit veterans who had been studying and revering their respective First Founding cultures for a long time...so splitting them up and sending many to successor chapters was a double gut-punch to them. Not sure if 12 years still jives with that.

Edited December 6, 2020 by b1soul

[Brother Lunkhead]

I definitely agree that shifting the setting from 112 years to 12 years is extreme. In fact, it really makes things less plausible (if that's even possible in the 40Kverse). As you say, I just can't see so many major events occurring as well as the dynamics involving the Unnumbered Sons working. Thirty to forty years is doable, but 12 ..... nope. Better if they had just stuck with 112 years..... Even if they had second thoughts about that, the timeline had already been stated and set, so they just should have dealt with it.

 

..... Just finished listening to the Guy Haley interview and I like the idea of events of the novels taking place after just the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade, but twelve years?  .......nope

[DukeLeto69]

Some thoughts from me...

 

1. I always disliked how the new “present” had jumped 112yrs(ish)

2. Left a huge lore gap to fill and not enough is mentioned in DI (not read DI:PW)

3. Confess until reading Avenging Son I didn’t like the whole 000s of Primaris on ice thing

4. The new “present” just had the Primaris everywhere, done and dusted

5. I personally found the concept of old (veteran) marines crossing the rubicon far more compelling and satisfying narratively (and makes more sense on TT as players gradually phase in the new Primaris models)

6. Plus it seems obvious that a game based on “there is only war” should be set DURING the Indomitus Crusade as provides a perfect sandbox AND for narrative players who value the lore it explains why new units and kit become available over time

7. So I welcome this retcon of the Guy Haley DI books.

8. Twelve yrs after start of Indomitus (ergo 12yrs after Avenging Son) seems ok to me but will depend on what changes are made to the DI books.

 

Edit - I asked Guy Haley on Twitter about how extensive the edits are in the two DI books and he said...

 

“Pretty extensive in number, but not in substance.“

Edited December 6, 2020 by DukeLeto69

[DukeLeto69]

So how is everything set up now in terms of the where the lore is advanced to, where the current edition is set and what has seemingly been cut out in the pare down?

 

Also, for someone wanting to read this and the avenging son series, what order can one recommend? Should the Hprusian Wars and those two Terra based Custodes novels by Wraight be included? Where would those be read to have chronological order?

Re the current/present point in time for the TT setting I am not sure.

 

The Vaults of Terra and Watchers of the Throne books are contemporaneous with The Avenging Son and reading them close together provides some nice moments with cross references I enjoyed.

 

The actual timescales for The Horusian Wars books is less obvious but French/Wraight both said their respective series are set close to each orher timescale wise.

[Urauloth]

Very much in favour of the rewrites, as I had a growing list of problems with the 100 year timeskip. Cutting it down to just 12, though, seems... a little excessive, I agree. I guess we'll have to see how it actually looks when we see it the page, though. It's still more time than the entire Horus Heresy (which I'm pretty sure should have lasted longer, but nevermind).

[Lucerne]

So Guilliman's Triumph becomes even more of a staged farce than before, I guess?

[Felix Antipodes]

Won't really know what I think of this...and probably won't until I (re)read the new editions. Agree that lopping 100 years off the timeline seems a drastic move. I'm pretty sure some of the other crusade stuff is given as 25 or so years after its start, so they've potentially muffed the storyline already. It smells like they are overreacting to some negative feedback from somewhere.

 

The 112 year jump was only going to work if their writers, both game and BL, got together and came up with a timetable/bible for what happened and when for that period...and stuck to it for the most part. It wouldn't have to be watertight and immutable but it would prevent major errors like this from happening.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

So how is everything set up now in terms of the where the lore is advanced to, where the current edition is set and what has seemingly been cut out in the pare down?

 

Also, for someone wanting to read this and the avenging son series, what order can one recommend? Should the Hprusian Wars and those two Terra based Custodes novels by Wraight be included? Where would those be read to have chronological order?

 

I haven't gone near the Horusian Wars yet, but I don't think they're involved too heavily with the Crusade stuff. Also, I would really recommend checking out Wraight's other series - the Vaults of Terra. That series takes place more or less simultaneously with the Watchers of the Throne and there is some character crossover, but not of the major book characters, just supporting cast. And trying to read Vaults, Watchers, and the Avenging Son novel in chronological sequence might be a tough slog as you'd have to leave threads hanging while you read two other books, not just one. And the actual break between the first and second Watchers novels isn't as bad as that between the first and second Vaults novels. So maybe just leave the Vaults novels for later and then come back to read them.

 

In this case, the reading order would be:

 

1. Watchers of the Throne Book 1 - The Emperor's Legion

2. Dawn of Fire Book 1 - Avenging Son

3. Watchers of the Throne Book 2 - The Regent's Shadow

 

^ One reason this is an easier read is because there's minimal overlap. All of The Emperor's Legion occurs before the start of Avenging Son. And Avenging Son only overlaps with the first few chapters of The Regent's Shadow, and in a non-spoilery way at that. Another reason is that Guilliman shows up in both Watchers books, but he's not in the Vault books at all. And by contrast, while Vaults Book 1 could be read entirely right before The Emperor's Legion, Book 2 actually takes place entirely during the events of that book. And particularly the middle of the book rather than at either end. Plus there's also a short audio drama set between the two Vaults books that would probably be best read right before Book 2, but even the name of it is a slight spoiler. Oof.

 

If you're up for it, the best order would be:

 

1. Vaults of Terra Book 1 - The Carrion Throne

2. Watchers of the Throne Book 1 - The Emperor's Legion

< That Audio Drama that you can search for by the author's name >

3. Vaults of Terra Book 2 - The Hollow Mountain

4. Dawn of Fire Book 1 - Avenging Son

5. Watchers of the Throne Book 2 - The Regent's Shadow

 

As for the Dark Imperium novels, those are going to be set twelve years after the start of the Indomitus Crusade. The books mentioned above all take place during the first year of Guilliman's return, so there's a gap of over a decade between them and the Dark Imperium series. But Guy Haley's Blood Angels novels actually fit in there now, although whether they're still set before or slightly after hasn't been answered yet. Originally The Devastation of Baal's latter section - where Guilliman turns up - was set seventy years after the Crusade began. But he stated a few months ago that it's now set 10-14 years after the Crusade began. With no further info, it's possible it's now set AFTER the Dark Imperium novels (13 or 14 years post-Rift) or still set prior (10-11 years post-Rift). We may not know for sure even after the rewritten DI novels turn up unless there's a passage mentioning that Bobby G. has already delivered Primaris marines to the Sons of Sanguinius (there were reasons why they couldn't be reinforced right away).

 

RIght now, there are two novels in the Blood Angels series set post-Rift - The Devastation of Baal and Darkness in the Blood. Devastation in particular is a great read and probably something you'll tear through quickly as it's pretty gripping, dealing with the combined chapters of Sanguinius' lineage defending Baal from Hive Fleet Leviathan. Especially considering it will still be a little while before the new DI books arrive, maybe go ahead and plan on reading Devastation of Baal after you get through the books above. While it has been shifted several decades forward in time, there's really only a couple of references to that longer time gap. Easy enough to do a self-edit on as you're reading them.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Won't really know what I think of this...and probably won't until I (re)read the new editions. Agree that lopping 100 years off the timeline seems a drastic move. I'm pretty sure some of the other crusade stuff is given as 25 or so years after its start, so they've potentially muffed the storyline already. It smells like they are overreacting to some negative feedback from somewhere.

 

Vigilus wrapped up about 25 years post-Rift. I'm really curious what they'll do with that as it basically tied Calgar up for around two decades as originally written. But now, with The Devastation of Baal being moved up, then for at least the last decade of the period that the Vigilus campaign went on, Dante was out of the warp and should have been available to come over and help Calgar out in his role as regent of Imperium Nihilus. So it wouldn't suprise me if they just compact the entire Vigilus Campaign so that it ends about the time Guilliman visits Dante.

[DukeLeto69]

Thank you for those write ups and info dukeleto and lordnord. I appreciate it.

You’re most welcome. If you like a bit of politiking and detective work in you BL fiction alongside the action, then you are going to love the two Chris Wraight series. Fabulous books.

[WARMASTER_]

@Lord Nord Thanks for the write up

 

I think we can pretty much put the time difference weirdness with the blood angels down to the effects of the great rift, in the devastation of Baal when the 1/3/5 companies return it’s been 100+ years for them because of its effects of localised time distortions and GW has said the same in the rule book

 

But I guess we’ll have to re(read) the books to actually know better, I hoping it’s all a bit better explained, but now I guess they have free reign on the dawn of fire books as they don’t have to end it with guiliman back in ultramar

[Ryltar Thamior]

I am amused and bemused that that whole Chronostrife thing is now apparently playing out *out* of universe as well as in.

This has .. interesting implications given , as others have stated, the fact that there's a chronology of events occurring post 012 M42 in the fluff we've been given thus far - even notwithstanding the introduction of the Era Indomitus system of post-Great Rift dating. 

Now, GW *have* given themselves considerable 'wiggle room' with a lot of stuff - various events that are supposed to have taken place throughout the first few decades of M42 that we don't actually have concrete datings for , possibly because *nobody* has actual datings for them that mean anything outside of the excessively localized region where the events in question occurred ... but even so, this doesn't feel quite right, winding back a hundred years sidereal time on Terra like that. 

One possibility is that various things that would have happened assumedly post-012 M42 in the 'old' timeline, are now *still* going ot happen post-012 in the 'new' timeline. That's not implausible , and I suppose goes wellwith the "it's a setting, not a moment in time" ethos ; although still seems a bit strange. Because it means that even though the 'official' contemporary dating is one thing .. we'll continue to get future events spooled out for us relative to that date. In which case, what's the point of saying what the 'current' year is. 

Another possibility is that it's 'just' a re-ordering of events - with the end of the Indomitus Crusade bumped back a hundred years, but not really affecting when the 'contemporary' date is in M42. 

Although all up, it's difficult to see how the Reconquista of much of the Imperium's then-at-risk territories could viably take place inside a mere 12 years. I suppose this means that the scale of military efforts actually proximally linked to the Indomitus Crusade is similarly being scaled back - with various stuff that would now be happening post- the Crusade's end ... happening post the Crusade's end, rather than as occurrences broadly under its umbrella or parallel to its occurrence. And therefore, less territory and manpower is involved at any one time all up.

I did initially feel that the timeline 'jump' forward to 112 M42 was pretty .. significant; but over time [no pun intended], it grew on me. I came to feel that a) it provided a lot of scope for all of them rather massive events to be sensibly occurring therein; and b) for a lot of the 'developments' we'd seen over the course of the edition [8th-9th] to make sense. 

For example, it seemed less problematic for the Marines to keep getting new Primaris stuff that had assumedly 'always' been there we'd just never noticed ... if there was a hundred (and twelve) year span in which new designs and doctrines were being rolled out [i.e. it *hadn't* actually just 'always' been there]; and the Primaris that had been dispatched to the Chapters having time to grow into and integrate themselves with their new familial fraternities. 

A hundred (and twelve) years is a long time. Enough for multiple generations of humans to grow to adulthood - and for some of the latest amongst these to have never even known 'the Before Times' except through tales of their forebears and by now wildly inaccurate [apparently in multiple senses] history tomes. It does represent a significant setting shift , sure - but hey, given all the *other* significant setting shifts it's semi-literally contemporaneous with ... I kinda feel like it's the one that was necessary to make all the others really 'work'. 

Your mileage, as with your chronology, may evidently Vary. 

[WARMASTER_]

As far as I can tell yeh only thing that will change is the date of the plague war, so everything else after is still cannon and we’re still currently as far as it can be measured accurately around 100/150 years after the rift (relative)

 

So my estimation is rift opens, Guiliman returns to terra for troops.... starts Indomitus.... plague wars..... vilgilus .. same ish time scales are also guiliman reinforces Baal & pariah war zone as he’s not there... darkness in the blood couple of years after (dawn of fire series during and after these events as we work our way through the series) ... ADB emperors spears set at least 100 years after the rift so probably the most up to date current novel (again relative with time stuff)

Edited December 6, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[RedFurioso]

As far as I can tell yeh only thing that will change is the date of the plague war, so everything else after is still cannon

The problem is, a key part of the Dark Imperium series is the ending of Indomitus Crusade and splitting of remaining Unnumbered Sons.

[b1soul]

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

 

That's fine

 

...but I think instead of 12 years maybe triple that period would've made more narrative sense, to have diverse Primaris who are now very closely bonded battle-brothers and who have built up over time hopes of being sent to their respective First Founding chapters, now being split up and sent to Successor chapters.

 

I think a few decades rather than twelve years would render the retcon less jarring

[Lord Marshal]

Whilst twelve years is definitely too short of a time, when we consider the Horus Heresy took nine years, 40k's absolutely no stranger to bizarro, unbelievable timeframes. I get the impression 12 was chosen because it's easier to smiudge off 1 from 112 though, rather than because it actually made sense. Edited December 6, 2020 by Lord Marshal

[WARMASTER_]

@b1soul & @redfurioso Don’t forget the books are being heavily edited this could change

 

And 12 years is a long time of war together, soldiers bond fast through conflict it doesn’t take decades & decades

Edited December 6, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[RedFurioso]

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

It doesn't make sense. If Guilliman split all his Primaris reinforcements so soon, how can he support other understrength Space Marine Chapters which he (and Indomitus Crusade fleets) hasn't reached yet?

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

It doesn't make sense. If Guilliman split all his Primaris reinforcements so soon, how can he support other understrength Space Marine Chapters which he (and Indomitus Crusade fleets) hasn't reached yet?

That’s exactly what splitting them would do though, the grey shield would go and join their parent chapter to reinforce. we also know the Guiliman sent out touch bearer fleets with custodies in command to reinforce, give them tech and command them to take part in the indomitus crusade if anything it makes more sense splitting them sooner to reinforce a larger area and command more to join

[RedFurioso]

 

 

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

It doesn't make sense. If Guilliman split all his Primaris reinforcements so soon, how can he support other understrength Space Marine Chapters which he (and Indomitus Crusade fleets) hasn't reached yet?

That’s exactly what splitting them would do though, the grey shield would go and join their parent chapter to reinforce. we also know the Guiliman sent out touch bearer fleets with custodies in command to reinforce, give them tech and command them to take part in the indomitus crusade if anything it makes more sense splitting them sooner to reinforce a larger area and command more to join

 

Many of those Chapters are fleet-based or little-known. Where will you send your Primaris to reinforce Carcharodons?

The idea was to use large Legion-size forces of Unnumbered Sons, to met and help any Chapters in sight and then reinforce them with Primaris.

If you send several Companies of Greyshields to some beleaguered Chapter, they will be destroyed too.

But instead, Guilliman attacked with the full might of his fleet, and that saved Baal and Rynn's World.

[b1soul]

12 years is not a long time on an Astartes time-scale

 

Yeah, you could argue Astartes bonding occurs at a mortal rate...but it would've been easier to explain with a few dozen years as opposed to 12 years

 

Theoretically, 4 years is a very long time for real-life soldiers to fight together...might as well make the entire Indomitus Crusade no longer than WWII.

[WARMASTER_]

 

 

 

 

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

It doesn't make sense. If Guilliman split all his Primaris reinforcements so soon, how can he support other understrength Space Marine Chapters which he (and Indomitus Crusade fleets) hasn't reached yet?

That’s exactly what splitting them would do though, the grey shield would go and join their parent chapter to reinforce. we also know the Guiliman sent out touch bearer fleets with custodies in command to reinforce, give them tech and command them to take part in the indomitus crusade if anything it makes more sense splitting them sooner to reinforce a larger area and command more to join

Many of those Chapters are fleet-based or little-known. Where will you send your Primaris to reinforce Carcharodons?

The idea was to use large Legion-size forces of Unnumbered Sons, to met and help any Chapters in sight and then reinforce them with Primaris.

If you send several Companies of Greyshields to some beleaguered Chapter, they will be destroyed too.

But instead, Guilliman attacked with the full might of his fleet, and that saved Baal and Rynn's World.

Locating most chapters wouldn’t be an issue and they would send out astropathic cries if they are, besides if they remain in 7 splinter fleets they could never reinforce them all the galaxy its too vast, The conflict and crusade are galaxy spanning, you can’t just have 7 fronts that never splinter away, logistically sending reinforcements everywhere then making them just the crusade is a better strategy.

 

Also as the book previously said the imperium’s high command was whispering of legion building, Guiliman passed to the lore to break them apart he can’t be seen to be doing it himself

 

Also we don’t know that it was the full indomitus crusade that saved Baal guiliman had brought all of the blood angels and their successors primaris reinforcements that’s already enough marines with his personal (primaris I believe) crusade fleet

12 years is not a long time on an Astartes time-scale

 

Yeah, you could argue Astartes bonding occurs at a mortal rate...but it would've been easier to explain with a few dozen years as opposed to 12 years

 

Theoretically, 4 years is a very long time for real-life soldiers to fight together...might as well make the entire Indomitus Crusade no longer than WWII.

They definitely bond and human rate

 

And I’m sorry but that’s a silly counter point you can’t get across the galaxy in that time, the conflict is 100 years because of the vast distances between not for the fact they have to bond

 

 

We also know guiliman commanded chapters to join once reinforced or given the knowledge for primaris the warrant was inside the 8th edition LTD edition codex

Edited December 6, 2020 by BladeOfVengeance

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

@Lord Nord Thanks for the write up

 

I think we can pretty much put the time difference weirdness with the blood angels down to the effects of the great rift, in the devastation of Baal when the 1/3/5 companies return it’s been 100+ years for them because of its effects of localised time distortions and GW has said the same in the rule book

 

But I guess we’ll have to re(read) the books to actually know better, I hoping it’s all a bit better explained, but now I guess they have free reign on the dawn of fire books as they don’t have to end it with guiliman back in ultramar

 

That shouldn't be the case - it was seventy years from the perspective of those outside of Baal before (which would include Terra). It's now 10-14 years from that same perspective. It's a very clear change, dictated by the same decision to move up the events of the DI novels.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

As far as I can tell yeh only thing that will change is the date of the plague war, so everything else after is still cannon

The problem is, a key part of the Dark Imperium series is the ending of Indomitus Crusade and splitting of remaining Unnumbered Sons.

 

 

Thus why that series is being rewritten so that references to the end of the Indomitus Crusade are now references to the end of the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade.

 

And splitting up the Unnumbered Sons after only a dozen years is something Haley mentioned yesterday as actually being much more in character for him. Otherwise, he's basically heading up a legion-sized force, which his codex strictly prohibited. It's one thing to add an eleventh company or loosen the company structure so it's not just ten squads of ten but up to twenty squads as small as three. It's an entirely different thing to be running around at the head of a half-million Primaris marines. At that point, any outside observer can be forgiven for thinking that you're setting yourself up as the Imperium's new ruler. If Guilliman had kept the Unnumbered Sons together for over a century, he might have lost the loyalty of all the High Lords of Terra, even those he'd personally appointed. The optics of it were just terrible. Breaking them up after a dozen years would have been a lot more tolerable.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

 

It now becomes just the end of phase 1 of the Crusade (and splitting of the Sons at the same time)

It doesn't make sense. If Guilliman split all his Primaris reinforcements so soon, how can he support other understrength Space Marine Chapters which he (and Indomitus Crusade fleets) hasn't reached yet?

That’s exactly what splitting them would do though, the grey shield would go and join their parent chapter to reinforce. we also know the Guiliman sent out touch bearer fleets with custodies in command to reinforce, give them tech and command them to take part in the indomitus crusade if anything it makes more sense splitting them sooner to reinforce a larger area and command more to join

 

Many of those Chapters are fleet-based or little-known. Where will you send your Primaris to reinforce Carcharodons?

The idea was to use large Legion-size forces of Unnumbered Sons, to met and help any Chapters in sight and then reinforce them with Primaris.

If you send several Companies of Greyshields to some beleaguered Chapter, they will be destroyed too.

But instead, Guilliman attacked with the full might of his fleet, and that saved Baal and Rynn's World.

 

 

There's a White Dwarf story about that very thing. Two hundred Primaris Marines were sent with a torchbearer fleet to reinforce the Flames of Aries chapter. And they kept looking, which was a long process, until they found them (a total of twenty surviving Firstborn). And at the end, it was those 220 marines who were left to reform the chapter.

 

So, while it might not sound like the thing they should have done, it is nevertheless what happened in many cases.

 

Also, it's likely what WOULD have happened with Baal if the torchbearer fleets had been able to get anywhere near the planet when they were sent out. The only reason Guilliman showed up instead with a massive fleet is because of an astropathic distress call received over a decade after the Indomitus Crusade began (and as was mentioned yesterday, Guilliman seems to enjoy some kind of "fast pass" through the Warp, likely due to Big E).

Edited December 6, 2020 by Lord Nord