God Blight - Guilliman VS. Mortarion

[Prot]

SPOILER ALERT: Do not read any part of this thread if you have not read the first 2 books in the Plague Wars series and want to read them yourself. Or do not want to read anything in reference to Guy Haley's latest book God Plague.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

In a recent interview I listened to Guy explain some interesting angles pertaining to the series, and Guilliman.

 

- He talks about re working the Dark Imperium and Plague Wars. He says if you read them before, they are of course essentially the same. - Most of it is 're-phrasing'. The timeline moves back for the series to take place after the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade, rather than after the Crusade is over.

 

- Guilliman has also decided to disban the 'unnumbered sons' which are basically giving the political fear mongers motivation to portray Guilliman as a threat to the Imperium. 

 

- The idea behind the God Blight is Morty and a Great Unclean dude are creating a virus specifically geared to take down a primarch.

 

- Dawn of Fire: (I haven't read this) is the precursor to Avenging Son that continues the story onwards.

 

- He stops short of saying there will be a Guilliman / Mort face off but if you recall this sort of happens in one of the novels... it gets close, but inevitably Mort is terrified of the Emperor's sword as it appears (similar to the Great Unclean) it could potentially 'end' Mortarion. 

 

Frankly I enjoyed this series so far and can't wait for Part 3. :tu:

[Captain Idaho]

I must confess I'm a little confused exactly what's going on. So is the latest book completely overwriting Dark Imperium etc?

[Brother Lunkhead]

Looks to be an interesting read. Based on the interview, the only problem I have is the drastic change in the timeline. While I think it makes a lot of sense to move things back a bit (based on the political wrangling in the background), moving events to year twelve seems excessive for a lot of reasons.

 

 

I must confess I'm a little confused exactly what's going on. So is the latest book completely overwriting Dark Imperium etc?

He's reediting the first two books to fit the new timeline. I don't think we'll see more than a few date changes.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not sure I like that. Does that mean I get a new copy of the book? Seems intellectually dishonest.

[Ishagu]

I'm not sure I like that. Does that mean I get a new copy of the book? Seems intellectually dishonest.

Do you ask for a new copy of a movie when it gets remade with some changes?

 

Someone should let Disney know. They owe me a blu ray of Mulan, Lion King, Lady and the Tramp, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, etc

 

Back on topic, apparently there are quite a few changes but the general plot and themes remain the same. It's an updated setting, not story.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Brother Lunkhead]

Personally, changing some timelines is not going to motivate me to buy new copies of 1 and 2, but I'm sure  BL will sell a lot..... any excuse to reissue a not so old book for more coin

 

I don't think it's intellectually dishonest to do a slight reedit on what is essentially pulp sci fi. Now if you are going to mess with classics like, The Sun Also Rises, Don Quixote, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, or Necropolis, that would be intellectually dishonest

[Captain Idaho]

 

I'm not sure I like that. Does that mean I get a new copy of the book? Seems intellectually dishonest.

Do you ask for a new copy of a movie when it gets remade with some changes?

Someone should let Disney know. They owe me a blu ray of Mulan, Lion King, Lady and the Tramp, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, etc

Back on topic, apparently there are quite a few changes but the general plot and themes remain the same. It's an updated setting, not story.

That's comparing apples to oranges.

 

Books aren't changed very often once in print. There are some that do, but most don't.

 

And when it comes to films, I believe Han Shot First.

[Ishagu]

And we've not read the updated version. For all we know it's better in every way and fixes many complaints with the lore and setting.

[Captain Idaho]

That's irrelevant. Changing the story retrospectively because you've messed up or decide to change policy, when people have already paid money for your story, is controversial whenever it is done. My example above is a well known part of that.

 

And let's be honest, is the story really being changed to fix all the problems in the settings? In 1 book?

 

I've not mentioned anything about the quality of it. That's not the point. I bought a book, with my own money, only for GW to make it incorrect at best or irrelevant at worst, in less than 2 years.

 

The way I see it, now I'm not going to be buying into BL novels as much, if at all, because they're potentially going to be changed in a year or so and make my purchase obsolete. Especially with the real life situation being what it is right now.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

But the story is unchanged. They are changing a few details about the setting. I don't feel this is wrong, and a company should be able to correct it's IP lore as they see fit. I actually wish more companies would do it.

 

It would truly be a great day if Disney erased the sequel trilogy, Bioware changed the ending of Mass Effect, and the last season of Game of Thrones was completely re-shot.

 

You'll be able to get a summary of the changes for free online. I'm buying the new books because the new covers look fantastic.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think this is a good thing. It's a break and can be discomforting, but I'd much rather they released us from the trap of the entire Indomitus Crusade being meaningless.

[Ishagu]

Yeah exactly. They aren't changing the characters, the motivations, etc.

 

If it's a positive change for the Indomnitus series that brings back an element of the unknown future then I'll be happy.

 

For the record I really, really enjoyed the Dark Imperium books. They are full of amazing lore, revelations and great character portrayals, but even I found the part about how the Crusade was over without any meaningful conclusion to be jarring and odd - definitely the element I would have changed myself.

 

As for part 3 of the story, I'm very excited about it. The end of Plague War, the relationship between Guilliman and the Militant Apostolic, the "Saint" and the box containing you-know-what... So much great stuff to dive into.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Why burn old copies? Maintaining them will be a fascinating bit of errata.

 

It honestly bothers me less than invalidating a codex a year later. And if it is a one-time deal that means that we're unrestrained moving forward, then I'm for it. Now, if it happens again besides this initial push to right the rushed 8E universe, then I will also be against it at that time.

 

This is a one time deal for me, I will accept it at this time. But it must end here and not form a precedent.

Edited December 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Captain Idaho]

But the story is unchanged. They are changing a few details about the setting. I don't feel this is wrong, and a company should be able to correct it's IP lore as they see fit. I actually wish more companies would do it.

It would truly be a great day if Disney erased the sequel trilogy, Bioware changed the ending of Mass Effect, and the last season of Game of Thrones was completely re-shot.

You'll be able to get a summary of the changes for free online. I'm buying the new books because the new covers look fantastic.

You've literally just said the following:

 

And we've not read the updated version. For all we know it's better in every way and fixes many complaints with the lore and setting.

[Ishagu]

There are some issues with the setting, not the story. Two different things.

 

I don't quite understand what you're picking at? Details with the lore and setting can be improved without altering the main plot or characters in any way.

 

Very straight forward concept.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

You're saying the updated version is very possibly going to be better than the original and fix many complaints in the setting of the lore, then you're saying a post later the story is unchanged.

 

It's a pretty obvious contradiction that undermines your position somewhat.

 

Regardless, you enjoy your new books that fix the setting but don't change the story. I'll save my money on BL books going forward, thanks.

[Ishagu]

You do understand that a setting and a story are two different things?

 

The book had a very straightforward story: "Guilliman diverts resources to combat Mortarion who is slowly corrupting the realm of Ultramar and is summoning the demonic servants of Nurgle. He uses brilliant tactics, insight and his own skills to fight the enemies of the Imperium."

 

That story could be set in M42 112 or it could be set in M42 012. The setting can change, some world details can be altered to make everything more cohesive. The story can remain exactly the same. Same characters, same obstacles, same themes and same conclusions.

The lore that surrounds those events can be altered, the time period can be altered, some details that don't impact the events directly can be altered. The Crusade was mentioned only a few times, and no details were given. That can simply be changed so that it isn't over, and the events of the books take place during it.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

You also said fixes the lore. So how is anyone going to fix the lore or setting without changing the story? The lore and setting are literally described in the story.

[Ishagu]

If you change the date, how does that change the story?

 

If you alter the text around the battle that ends the Crusade in the original book, to text that says it has simply forwarded the goals of the Crusade but not yet ended it, there will be no impact to the rest of the book.

 

The events that transpire in the story can essentially remain unchanged. Guy himself says nothing of substance to the plot is altered.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Changing the date massively changes the story. You said you read Dark Imperium so you must be aware it is set at the end of the Indomitus Crusade originally. The whole plot is about how they are splitting up, reinforcing Chapters, creating new Chapters, had rebuilt the 500 Worlds, Guilliman reminiscing over the past 100 years and how he's tired and aged etc.

 

How do you propose you change the date and address all of that without changing the story?

 

Anyway, that's it for me here. Everyone can clearly read the posts in this thread and make up their minds how they feel about the book being changed so soon after release in crucial ways.

 

Like I said, you enjoy buying the books again. More power to you, your money. I, like others, will not. My position and no one has made a case that changes my mind.

[Ishagu]

They do that throughout the Crusade as well. I do imagine swathes of the book and sections that describe the world and setting will be altered but the general events will remain as they are.

 

Guilliman will still fight the clock Daemon, Calgar will still be unsure of himself, the hospital world will still be corrupted.

 

Ending the Crusade in that book was the most unsatisfying revelation in the novel by far.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The story of the book is relatively unchanged. The setting is changed drastically. Do not bait and switch between the two Captain, it is intellectually dishonest.

Edited December 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Captain Idaho]

Let me try a different angle - if the changes are so minor, why is BL (as part of GW policy) bothering in making the changes? Edited December 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

To make other books more exciting by erasing the uneventful ending of the Crusade and to make the current events more cohesive?

 

For example they can retcon Dark Imperium 1 so that Calgar is Primaris. This ties in better with the Vigilus campaign from 8th edition.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It makes the setting open-ended. So they change a few details, keep the story the same, and then now the Indomitus Crusade and Era become open ended, where they were once closed.

 

The Silent King can have meaningful impact, the Fallen events can have meaningful impact, Fulgrim could have meaningful impact, maybe Angron on Armageddon could have meaningful impact.

 

There are so many benefits plot-wise to the overall setting by doing this.

 

You should also admit the bait and switch and move on, not try from another angle.

Edited December 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion