Angron for 9th

[techsoldaten]

Still haven't played a game of 9th due to lockdowns. Have been focused on list building, giving a lot of thought to World Eaters.

 

Would you actually want to see Angron return for 9th?

 

Looking at the points for Berzerkers - and considering what else might be necessary to make them work - seems to me a 400-ish point model would be impractical for most lists.

 

Obviously, the question would depend on what else he's able to do, but I'm having a hard time seeing where any single character could fit in a melee-oriented list given the current points and mechanics. Something would have to change for him to have a place in the game.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marshal Loss]

I mean, even if you don't want to use a c. 500 point model, why wouldn't you want Angron to come back? Him arriving is basically a guarantee of a vast World Eaters rework with tons of new kits and a supplement/dedicated codex. Getting a DG-level rework is pretty much winning the lottery for cult players.

 

 

Obviously, the question would depend on what else he's able to do, but I'm having a hard time seeing where any single character could fit in a melee-oriented list given the current points and mechanics. Something would have to change for him to have a place in the game.

 

If/when he arrives, World Eaters are going to change dramatically - not just because of him but because of all the other options they'll inevitably get. One can't really speculate on how Angron would fit in to the current WE army because the force he'd be slotting in to would undoubtedly be very different from what World Eaters players can build out of the vanilla CSM codex + PA supplement.

[Karhedron]

I remember after Magnus was released, one of the main rumour-mongers of the day claimed to have seen development art work for Guilliman, Mortarion, Russ and Angron. Obviously the first 2 panned out, I wonder if anything will come of the other two.

[Khornestar]

Take your standard pound of salt, but a friend of mine who works for GW says Angron etc. are all there, just waiting for their turn/time to be rolled out. People say lots of things, so I'm by no means pretending to know that for sure.

 

For the question itself, I don't really care about his rules in game compared to how great of a model I know he will be. The Bloodthirsters/Skarbrand are among my favorite models of all time, and I think they'd knock Angron out of the park.

 

As for his place in the army list itself and what he would do on the table, I guess those are good questions. The ability to only suffer X wounds per phase would do a lot to help our genefather. Bloodthirsters etc. are kinda easy to kill, and this rules seems to help Ghaz and Mortarion quite a bit. Seems reasonable, especially since we know he's unlikely to be doing much in the shooting or psychic phases. I'd be so bold as to say he should have a 4+ FNP or some other similar mechanic.

 

Some series of buffs. Aura, targeted, whatever. 

 

The high damage/fewer attacks vs. "sweep" that knights and bloodthirsters have seem appropriate, too. 

 

I'd also like to see something totally unique... like each infantry model he kills spawns a bloodletter. Or he interferes with objective secured, or grants it to a wider range of models, allows repeated/cheaper use of strats. I think there's lots of room for such things.

 

The cost of our basic/spammed unit is an issue, but perhaps the trade-off could be worth it somehow.

[Irate Khornate]

My money would hit the counter so hard I would crack the foundation in the shop.

 

That being said I believe that Angron is workable into a list. My only issue is what they would points cost him at. If he was a pure beat stick like Morty then I could see him cost 450 or so if not a little bit cheaper. My other issue is would he follow the bloodthirster trend of being exorbitantly priced points wise because he's a bloodthirster.

 

Though if they give him a max wounds lost per phase ability, make him 500~ points. That makes up for the no psyker abilities.

[Cheex]

Yep, if the model is any good I'll buy it without hesitation.

 

I fully expect him to be a beatstick tank with a few passive auras, but that's about it.

[techsoldaten]

I mean, even if you don't want to use a c. 500 point model, why wouldn't you want Angron to come back? Him arriving is basically a guarantee of a vast World Eaters rework with tons of new kits and a supplement/dedicated codex. Getting a DG-level rework is pretty much winning the lottery for cult players.

 

Yeah, World Eaters would benefit from a rework.

 

I just don't want them becoming the power armored version of Tyranids, great stats individually and no threat to armies with good shooting.

 

Could go either way. I'm not fond of the current rules but realize it could be worse.

[Marshal Loss]

Could go either way. I'm not fond of the current rules but realize it could be worse.

I find it hard to imagine a dedicated rework making World Eaters worse. The foundations are already there for a strong army. Besides, as you'll see when you get some games of 9th in, dedicated melee armies are a very substantial threat to gunline armies in 9th. We're not playing 8th anymore. Beyond the inevitable pain of having to replace various units with new kits with new wargear options, there's no good reason to dread a rework, and even less reason to fear that World Eaters are going to be become power-armoured Tyranids.

[Khornestar]

I like to see things like Apopleptic Frenzy and violent urgency that try to address the obvious shortcomings that the narrative and codex create for certain variants, like World Eaters. I too am lukewarm sometimes in response, but to me 9th seems like they’re trying, and willing to be creative. There are no guarantees about anything, but the various loyalist chapters have a diversity of ways of solving similar problems.

 

Spitballing more on Angron, Some mean anti-psyker ability would be thematic. We have our Strat currently but other than a relic nothing else to deal with filthy witch powers.

 

I think our ability to deal mortal wounds could use a little help, too. In terms of something consistent that doesn’t totally rely on one model getting lucky rolls. Given recent trends, I can see this taking the form of a unit-targeted buff that lets a core unit deal mortal wounds on a 6 to wound, or something. This could provide a way of augmenting the army’s damage-dealing abilities in light of the 500-point giant egg in the basket.

 

One assumes he'll have wings, which is important for obvious things like his own movement, but also because our dark apostles are a prime source of buffs for our army but limited by mobility and deployment options. Winged Angron could keep up, show up almost anywhere he wants, provide those buffs/debuffs, and be a legitimate melee threat to any target.

 

If I understand mortarion, he has multiple options for warlord trails and buffs, so that style of choices could be available to angron, too. Max anti-psyker vs. dealing damage vs. buffing his sons are some potential specializations that could exist.

 

What are we lacking that we see present in other assault armies? Advance and charge is a huge one (talisman relic makes it possible for one character only), as is fall back and charge. “Only” one way of adding extra movement/charge distance. Better charge in x situation, e.g. after deep striking, after full move/advance, etc. What about feel no pain/wound-ignoring mechanics? I think a current pure World Eaters list has only the berserker glaive and the half-damage warlord trait. Saving a couple of wounds ona character is swell and all, but a FNP aura/buff would be more useful since the ease of which almost all of our combat units get shot to pieces is one of our main problems.

 

Angron could provide any of these with auras or targeted buffs. Because we’ll surely get lords/chosen on juggernauts at the same time, that extra movement is really gonna help. :D

 

Daemon synergy could be a potential feature, as well, but I don’t know if this has any precedent with Mortarion. We also don’t really know what inter-codex interactions daemons will have in 9th, so it might be a nonstarter.

[techsoldaten]

 

Could go either way. I'm not fond of the current rules but realize it could be worse.

I find it hard to imagine a dedicated rework making World Eaters worse. The foundations are already there for a strong army. Besides, as you'll see when you get some games of 9th in, dedicated melee armies are a very substantial threat to gunline armies in 9th. We're not playing 8th anymore. Beyond the inevitable pain of having to replace various units with new kits with new wargear options, there's no good reason to dread a rework, and even less reason to fear that World Eaters are going to be become power-armoured Tyranids.

 

 

I'd love to agree with that sentiment. Sadly, I see a few ways a Codex rework could go.

 

Death Guard have a great Codex right now. Had GW not decided to increase wounds on all power armored models, would it still be a great Codex?

 

I'd argue no. Not that Death Guard were bad before, but Plague Marines / Terminators get a lot tougher with the extra wounds. There's now a number of viable ways to construct a list that could win and I don't think it would have happened without this global change to power armor troops. They would just be mid-tier.

 

World Eaters are a close combat army with disadvantages in psychic and long range shooting. Getting into combat has always been the key obstacle they have to overcome to win. 

 

The question becomes, what kind of benefit can WE gain that makes them better able to overcome their main disadvantages? How do you go from where they are now to someplace better?

 

Because 2W PA Troops doesn't benefit WE the same way it does DG or TS. Berzerkers are expensive, you can't really take them in large numbers. Other armies will be optimizing around D2 weapons going forward. It could almost be argued that DG make the whole meta worse for other Chaos armies.

 

Anyone designing a Codex has to address the strengths and weaknesses in a meaningful way for this to be a success. Here's a few areas GW might look at and how a new Codex could do them right or wrong.

 

- Support Characters - characters with auras / abilities that improve the models around them. If WE get characters along the lines of a Biologus Putrifier, which makes everyone around him better, they will do great. If WE get characters along the lines of a Master of Executions, who is really just a specialized duelist, they will have problems.

 

- Psychic - the lack of psychic really hurts WE in 9th edition. If they had a Chapter Tactic that allows individual units to deny powers, or some kind of per-unit upgrade that allows units to deny (ala Collars of Khorne), that could almost make up for it. If this goes unaddressed, WE can at best hope to be mid-tier. GW hasn't acknowledged the problem before at an army-wide scale, so I'm not optimistic.

 

- Morale - maybe this is just me, but Berzerkers really need to be fearless to work. It's fluffy, but - more importantly - it keeps you from losing a model or two after a bad round of shooting. GW doesn't seem to favor fearless as much in 9th edition, without it WE would be just a little less polished.

 

- Guaranteed Charges - changes to multi-charge mechanics have really hurt WE in 9th edition. GW could fix this by making charge distances for Berzerkers guaranteed within X inches, giving them a way to declare against multiple units and still get to the closest if they fail the roll. GW could make this harder by ignoring it or, worse, making charges rerollable for WE. Having to reroll both dice means you have the same odds as you did on the original roll, and there's a lot of people who would see this as a statistical improvement (when it's not, it's just another chance.)

 

- Daemon Engines - DG got a lot of unique Daemon Engines. I'd expect the same for WE. If GW treats them just as Distraction Carnifexes - high output of attacks, lots of work to get them into combat - that's probably a fail. Berzerkers already do that. Feels like they'd need things that do shooting really well.

 

- Havocs - DG don't have much in the way of long term shooting. WE could improve this by allowing Havocs. WE could suffer if their support units are all mid-range. 

 

- Angron - I played double Primarch armies in 8th. They did surprisingly well, mostly because opponents had a hard time focusing on a single target. If Mortarion was closer than Magnus, he would take all the fire and Magnus would rip into your forces next turn. And vice versa. I suspect an Angron model would be pure cc. There's ways to do that right and ways to screw that up. If he's just some gigantic monster with 22 attacks that automatically hit and wound, he's going to go down to shooting by turn 2 every game. There needs to be some reason you would want him in your list besides pure offensive output.

[Marshal Loss]

Death Guard have a great Codex right now. Had GW not decided to increase wounds on all power armored models, would it still be a great Codex?

 

Yes.

 

Besides, they did, which is the end of the story as far as that hypothetical is concerned. Saying that the book wouldn't be good without a sizeable change around which the rules were written isn't much of an argument because we don't know what avenue they would have gone done otherwise - although, for the record, Death Guard were also already quite a good army prior to their statline changes thanks to War of the Spider. Not world-beating, but still extremely solid. That bodes well in any case.

 

 

Because 2W PA Troops doesn't benefit WE the same way it does DG or TS. Berzerkers are expensive, you can't really take them in large numbers. Other armies will be optimizing around D2 weapons going forward. It could almost be argued that DG make the whole meta worse for other Chaos armies.

Even if it doesn't benefit them to the same degree, it is still a net gain, pending pricing. One only has to look at the impact 2W changes has had on the viability of numerous Firstborn units in the SM book, which have clearly not been adversely affected by their entry into a meta already aimed at slaying Primaris.

 

 

 

Anyone designing a Codex has to address the strengths and weaknesses in a meaningful way for this to be a success.

Yes, of course; and the points you highlight are all issues for a mono-WE army. At the end of the day that's still not an argument against World Eaters moving from where they are now to a dedicated supplement/codex.

 

Let's simplify, because I'm not really sure where your point leads: do you really think that staying part of the vanilla CSM codex would aid World Eaters in combating these issues better than a dedicated supplement/codex would? At a basic level, the sheer number of stratagems + inevitable expansion of weapon options available to Berzerkers & Terminators etc + other new units/characters would offer options tailored specifically to their theme and provide GW designers with opportunities to address these kinds of issues in ways that don't involve utilizing options not fluffy for World Eaters. Looking at that WE received in PA, there's clearly some awareness of what the army needs.

 

There would be losses. It's not clear how many options WE would no longer have access to - even Havocs might be replaced by a WE-specific fire support unit, given GW's extensive use of old sketches (see: Jes Goodwin's WE Havoc art), but no doubt some options would go the way of the dodo. The potential benefits, I think, easily outweigh the likely losses. I've been really impressed by GW's codex writing so far in 9th, and think there's a lot to be optimistic about for the future of CSM (& World Eaters) as a faction.

 

Assessing Angron's hypothetical viability is pointless without context but I would stress that melee super-beatsticks are actually doing very well in 9th; see e.g. Nightbringer, Mortarion. He'd need to be priced fairly or have some way of mitigating damage/keeping himself alive, for sure, but GW is presumably aware of that.

 

Anyway, I don't think there's anything else to say on the issue from my perspective. YMMV. For the record, I hope EC get this treatment first anyway. :P

[Khornestar]

The wider context is definitely important to whether or not Angron could “work,” too. Maybe a wider what-do-we-want thread could work for this discussion. I deleted the other topic, I think the conversation is moving on organically to e larger issues that involve adding a unit like Angron. Can split off later if needed. Edited February 1, 2021 by Juggernut

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Anyone designing a Codex has to address the strengths and weaknesses in a meaningful way for this to be a success.

Yes, of course; and the points you highlight are all issues for a mono-WE army. At the end of the day that's still not an argument against World Eaters moving from where they are now to a dedicated supplement/codex.

 

Let's simplify, because I'm not really sure where your point leads: do you really think that staying part of the vanilla CSM codex would aid World Eaters in combating these issues better than a dedicated supplement/codex would? 

 

Thank you for the response.

 

Maybe I can simplify what I'm trying to say.

 

- WE need their own Dex.

 

- GW could screw it up.

 

WE are unique in that they are primarily a melee (not mid-ranged) Chaos army. They are not well served by the current selection of units / Stratagems in the CSM dex.

 

At the same time: just getting a Codex is not enough, it needs to be thoughtfully implemented. The list I presented is specific areas where designers could do right or go wrong. I would not want a Dex that just recycles the same problems with Khorne armies we've had for multiple editions.

 

Angron, in particular, concerns me. Not sure a pure melee army benefits from having a lot of points wrapped up in a single unit. Thinking about Bloodthirsters in 8th, they were overcosted and underperformed in most situations.

 

I'm not sure what they could do different with Angron to make him good relative to other Primarchs. There's nothing self-evident about an all-melee Primarch being useful on the tabletop. 

 

More generally, with the 2W thing, think about it this way: would people be using Plague Marines as much if they were not 2W? Or if Blightlords were just 2W? DR makes that extra wound a lot more useful than it would be on a Berzerker.

 

The consequences of 2 wounds PA models is now everyone has to optimize their lists against it. What makes one army great can take away from other armies in other ways.

[Emicus]

World Eaters would tremendously benefit from 'not just loonies running at enemy'. In the good old days of the heresy there were still Marines fighting the nails, bring able to talk, being able to shoot a gun. Their double fight mechanic doesn't help with this. Perhaps a spin on 'dakka dakka' where they procc more attacks in shooting and melee. Bullet murder spree can be fun too..

 

Angron however... he was mad before he became a rage-daemon. Give him 50 wounds and a crappy save, because taking damage doesn't matter. Heck make him stronger the more he is hurt. Or an incredible fnp save but poor normal save. Give him a check where if you fail he runs screaming into the nearest enemy unit:

 

'the nails bite. On a 1-4 angron moves and charges nearest enemy. 5-6 you punch an order into his head to follow'.

 

All damage is mortal wounds. Ain't no :cuss that stands up to his rage.

 

Tldr; make him filthy op but balance it with him being uncontrollable.

[Cheex]

I disagree strongly with making Angron or any WE uncontrollable. If you played in 3.5 you'll know why: it doesn't matter how "filthy OP" something is, if it can be distracted by a cheap Land Speeder then it is practically useless for a turn. If its controllability is determined by a random roll, then that just worsens the "feel bads" you get when your amazingly expensive centrepiece model effectively can't be used for a turn.

 

At most, make it so he must always declare a charge against the closest unit within 12" (but can also declare against other targets), and must always make a Heroic Intervention move if possible.

[dice4thedicegod]

I definitely like the idea of Angron (and khornate daemons/bloodthirsters in general) getting more attacks, rather than less, as they take damage. (Basically, like skarbrand). They should be like the Incredible Hulk.., hurting them/getting them angrier just makes them more powerful... until they keel over. Edited February 25, 2021 by dice4thedicegod

[Emicus]

I disagree strongly with making Angron or any WE uncontrollable. If you played in 3.5 you'll know why: it doesn't matter how "filthy OP" something is, if it can be distracted by a cheap Land Speeder then it is practically useless for a turn. If its controllability is determined by a random roll, then that just worsens the "feel bads" you get when your amazingly expensive centrepiece model effectively can't be used for a turn.

 

At most, make it so he must always declare a charge against the closest unit within 12" (but can also declare against other targets), and must always make a Heroic Intervention move if possible.

A slow melee beatstick that gets shot off the board then? Blimey we need more units like that.

[Cheex]

 

I disagree strongly with making Angron or any WE uncontrollable. If you played in 3.5 you'll know why: it doesn't matter how "filthy OP" something is, if it can be distracted by a cheap Land Speeder then it is practically useless for a turn. If its controllability is determined by a random roll, then that just worsens the "feel bads" you get when your amazingly expensive centrepiece model effectively can't be used for a turn.

 

At most, make it so he must always declare a charge against the closest unit within 12" (but can also declare against other targets), and must always make a Heroic Intervention move if possible.

A slow melee beatstick that gets shot off the board then? Blimey we need more units like that.

 

 

Angron would have wings, so he'd hardly be slow.

 

And I'd rather a beatstick that could be shot off the board than one that could be led by the nose with a disposable Land Speeder and be rendered useless without firing a shot at all.

[Cleal Baros]

I'd love to see Angron become more frenzied and more dangerous as a game goes on - becoming stronger and less controllable as he takes damage.

Give him a pile of wounds and don't make him too hard to hurt, all the way through the fluff Angron takes huge of damage but never the less remains unstoppable. His attacks characteristic and strength should climb as he takes wounds but his leadership should drop. At the beginning of each turn the controlling player should have to 'test the nails' with a failed leadership test seeing him charge and attack the nearest model/unit rather than moving as normal.

The above may not be uber competative but it's extremley fluffy and would make for great fun, done right it also wouldn't have to rule him out of competative play all together (especially if we're given some kind of skull tally rule).

Just think of those closing turns as both players watch the nails test in horror - a raging daemon primarch who eats everything and anyone he touches but who can turn against his own at the roll of a dice... With a chaotic machanic like this his stats can be nudged up to the kind of levels he deserves too, all without instantly tipping the balance of a game.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Cleal Baros

[dice4thedicegod]

He should definitely get a skarbrand type damage table !

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Would be awesome to see something like that! 

[Cheex]

Would be awesome to see something like that! 

 

Seeing your name in any wishlisting thread is such a tease :P

[Chapter Master Valrak]

 

Would be awesome to see something like that! 

 

Seeing your name in any wishlisting thread is such a tease

 

 

I like to wish list as well 

[Sagentus]

Tbh i would love to see, buy and paint the model. If/when its released, but he would be somewhat like be'lakor with his sword and wings. But the bonus would be khorne finally get some more modela which would make me one poor skull lol

[betrayer41]

lol whelp new rumor saying WE for 9th so maybe well find out sooner rather than later.....maybe......hopefulyyy.....pleaseeee