Thoughts on Belial and stubborn defiance

[SmiteThemAll]

Hey guys, 

 

Wanted to pick your collective brains about a couple of topics.

 

First of all

 

Belial is he worth it?

 

So if your going down the Deathwing route and I assume many of you are, then Belial is a serious consideration.

Marching 10 scoring terminators up the middle of the battlefield with 10 storm bolters and 2 CML means that he can add some handy force multiplication with his chapter master re-rolls. 

 

However, if I'd say his utility is lessened if you start to include more melee orientated terminators. Yes the reliable chapter master re-rolls will come in handy for the assault phase but you can do better with a Librarian casting righteous repugnance. The librarian also has the ability to cast other powers. When you can only field two HQ's in a Vanguard detachment, versatility is advantageous.

 

Belial also happens to be a pretty tasty in combat vs elite infantry so I'm a little torn as to wether he's worth it.

 

Secondly 

 

Stubborn defiance. Which unit to score it ?

 

This seems to be a pretty decent secondary but there are few things that bother me about it. Do I really want a Deathwing terminator squad baby sitting an objective in my backfield for 15 points when they could be applying pressure to my opponent? 

Yes they will do that job very well, throw a few storm shields on them maybe keep the ravenwing apothecary in the vicinity and your opponent will struggle to remove them but could it be done for cheaper?

If we do decide to go with a cheaper form of objective secure do we go for a big squad to keep it durable ? or go for a small footprint and hope you keep the unit hidden whilst scoring ?

 

If we include another detachment and get some other cheaper objective secured troops, then we allow our Deathwing to do what they do best, smash some face!

 

What do you guys think?

[Brother Ramael]

I think he's quite strong in melee and resistant as well (-1D is nice really), rerollable 2+ to wound is nasty on a 3D weapon.

The note about the Libby is true, but you're rerolling a lot of stuff already.

 

For SD I'd go with a 10 man Termie squad with 2 cyclones, combat squad it and drop the 2 cyclones on the objective, where they can possibly still shoot

[aura_enchanted]

I think he's quite strong in melee and resistant as well (-1D is nice really), rerollable 2+ to wound is nasty on a 3D weapon.

The note about the Libby is true, but you're rerolling a lot of stuff already.

 

For SD I'd go with a 10 man Termie squad with 2 cyclones, combat squad it and drop the 2 cyclones on the objective, where they can possibly still shoot

belials strong in melee

 

 

hes never been good in melee

 

hes only good at killing generic barebones HQ's maybe some secondary HQ's but he is not a melee beatstick and never has been, would u like for me to break out evidence from across the ages, i have the codecies, i can source them if you like. belial is an overpriced, under preforming HQ who is unworthy of carrying the massive quality of life shift you could have with ANY other HQ choice in the codex (other then asmodai)

 

so there.. belial is second worst in the codex and considering his competition for the worst is chaplain immodium you are talking about some pretty low bars to climb over

[Brother Ramael]

 

I think he's quite strong in melee and resistant as well (-1D is nice really), rerollable 2+ to wound is nasty on a 3D weapon.

The note about the Libby is true, but you're rerolling a lot of stuff already.

 

For SD I'd go with a 10 man Termie squad with 2 cyclones, combat squad it and drop the 2 cyclones on the objective, where they can possibly still shoot

belials strong in melee

 

 

hes never been good in melee

 

hes only good at killing generic barebones HQ's maybe some secondary HQ's but he is not a melee beatstick and never has been, would u like for me to break out evidence from across the ages, i have the codecies, i can source them if you like. belial is an overpriced, under preforming HQ who is unworthy of carrying the massive quality of life shift you could have with ANY other HQ choice in the codex (other then asmodai)

 

so there.. belial is second worst in the codex and considering his competition for the worst is chaplain immodium you are talking about some pretty low bars to climb over

 

I'm not going to argue... It's still a guy that's very very resilient and inflict almost always 15 damages on charge, which is not bad.

It's obviously not a C'tan but hey

[SmiteThemAll]

Well neither of us said Belial was a beat stick melee character.

 

His role is pretty clear, he buffs deathwing whilst adding some melee and being pretty durable. -1Damage if he is your warlord and he will likely have a 6+FNP from your apothecary and a 4+ inv.

 

Damage 3 attacks that hit and wound non-vehicles on a 2 is not nothing. In all likely hood your terminators should be dominating his favoured targets but it's nice to pile in some reliable extra attacks

 

Belial also has a debatable advantage over a librarian casting righteous repugnance in that his re-roll ability is GUARANTEED. It's not hard to fail a psychic test.

 

But saying that I'm still undecided.

 

Brother Ramiel

 

I really like your idea of putting a double CML 5 man squad on the objective. Its not the most amazing firepower but at least they can have an impact on the game. Plus they will be hitting on a 2+ if they've stayed still, which they likely would be.

[Angel of Solitude]

I don't think for one minute it's reasonable to cite prior edition performance as a reason to not take Belial in this edition. If anything - as the community keeps telling us - his supporting cast has grown significantly in both offensive and defensive ability in this edition, and that will inevitably make it easier to find success with Belial.

 

While his stats may not have changed much - and you may think base 4 attacks is week - he now has a master-crafted storm bolter (so AP-1 and 2D), and his Sword of Silence got some very nice buffs - S+2, AP-4 3D is a very nice profile, made even better by the fact that you're hitting on a 2+ and wounding on a 2+. With that kind of work, he is going to do some work.

 

Now, let's look at him as a supporting character with re-roll all hits for a selected Deathwing unit. First option - Deathwing all with Lightning claws. This unit will absolutely shred troop units, as Belial will give you re-roll to all the hit rolls, and the LIgthning claws add +2 attacks and have a built-in re-roll the wound roll. Added to this you have the threat of Belial heroically intervening. Equally, if you want to go with the TH/SS option then you can use Belial's re-roll to offset the -1 to hit from the TH.

 

An important point to note here: because you have to choose the target unit for Belial's re-rolls in the command phase, you can't use it for deepstriking units (although the re-roll 1's still works).

 

Regarding Righteous Repugnance, yes it's powerful, and yes it allows you to target something that has arrived from deepstrike. But, it's for melee attacks only on a single unit - which reduces the versatility of it - and it also needs a 7+ to go off, which is somewhat unreliable. If you're going to take a Librarian, then you'll want to make sure you're maximising it's effectivenss through your choice of second power.

[G8Keeper]

Even with no external buffs Belial sports cannot be wounded below 4+, -1 damage and -1 to hit in combat, plus a 4+ inv. Whilst hitting back with 5 attacks in the first round of combat always wounding on 2's against anything but vehicles, with an AP and Damage to ensure they count. I don't think he's so shabby anymore.

 

Now add chappy, apothecary and libby buffs if you so desire

[Chaplain Lucifer]

As a long time DW player Belial was almost always a given (being mandatory most of the times). It's good to see he is starting to beef up a bit.

One thing I learned was that he was best used against soft targets (except when TH&SS) was all the rage. He now seems to be able to tank a bit more, dish out a bit more but most important he buffs people around him.

[SmiteThemAll]

Thanks for everyones input on Belial, you've help me make my decision and he will be included. I had forgotten about his inbuilt -1 to hit in melee also!

I think Ezekiel will be my second HQ choice.

 

What do you all think about stubborn defiance and how to score it?

[G8Keeper]

I assume we're going for a full DW list? It largely depends on what you're facing. A shooty backfield army is going to pretty easy to score stubborn defiance against for the full 15 points with a minimum FW command squad, assuming good placement of objective, preferably out of LoS.

 

Against a faster foe that can hit hard in combat I'd be inclined to go the full 10man DW squad with 2 x cyclones and a couple of tanking TH+SS. You can always combat squad them if needs be then or keep the 10.

[bigtrouble]

Ezekiel is a good second choice for DW. The only issue is mobility and getting him into the fight, it seems.

[Brother Ramael]

If you use the standard termies and you sniff your enemy setting up for an incursion on your Stubborn Defiance objective, the combat teleport ( the one from the SM codex) can be useful to double on the defense.

[SmiteThemAll]

I assume we're going for a full DW list? It largely depends on what you're facing. A shooty backfield army is going to pretty easy to score stubborn defiance against for the full 15 points with a minimum FW command squad, assuming good placement of objective, preferably out of LoS.

 

Against a faster foe that can hit hard in combat I'd be inclined to go the full 10man DW squad with 2 x cyclones and a couple of tanking TH+SS. You can always combat squad them if needs be then or keep the 10.

 

Well I think I'd be more inclined to bring an outrider detachment for some mobile units. I know it costs 3 command points but to me its worth.

The units I've got painted that I'd like to try are

2 minimum 3 man squads of Ravenwing 

3 Landspeeder typhoons 

and 3 MM attack bikes 

 

The speeders and attack bikes are credible shooting threats with good mobility. Jink keeps them alive longer and if your opponent cant touch them with their shooting or they're busy firing at a brick of terminators then they can stay still for the +1 to hit.

 

The bikers might be too flimsy as squads of 3 but they can help screen deepstrikers or harass flanks etc etc.

 

Also I thought scoring stubborn defiance required an objective secured unit to do so?

Ezekiel is a good second choice for DW. The only issue is mobility and getting him into the fight, it seems.

 

I will probably be footsloggin most of the terminators so he wont struggle to keep up with them

If you use the standard termies and you sniff your enemy setting up for an incursion on your Stubborn Defiance objective, the combat teleport ( the one from the SM codex) can be useful to double on the defense.

I totally forgot about that, thats a great idea

[G8Keeper]

You're correct it is an Obsec unit, I missed that point.

 

Are you aiming for one vanguard and one outrider then? It'll be interesting to see what kind of effect the dual wing approach has on the board. For me it just seems a little too little of either wing for it to move mountains but hey, happy to be proven wrong.

[SmiteThemAll]

You're correct it is an Obsec unit, I missed that point.

 

Are you aiming for one vanguard and one outrider then? It'll be interesting to see what kind of effect the dual wing approach has on the board. For me it just seems a little too little of either wing for it to move mountains but hey, happy to be proven wrong.

 

 

Yes , I'd like to try a vanguard and outrider. Something like this

 

Vanguard 

 

Belial

 

Ravenwing chief apoth with selfless healer WLT

Ancient with Pennant 

2x10 man DW 

 

Outrider

 

Ezekiel 

 

2x3 Ravenwing bikes or 1x5

1x3 Attack bikes w/MM

3x1 Landspeeder typhoons 

 

Would love to play test it if that was possible, I'm also willing to concede that I may be biased as these are the models I have painted.

 

G8Keeper, so you'll be going full blown Deathwing ? Would love to se a list.

[G8Keeper]

Yes , I'd like to try a vanguard and outrider. Something like this

 

Vanguard

 

Belial

 

Ravenwing chief apoth with selfless healer WLT

Ancient with Pennant

2x10 man DW

 

Outrider

 

Ezekiel

 

2x3 Ravenwing bikes or 1x5

1x3 Attack bikes w/MM

3x1 Landspeeder typhoons

 

Would love to play test it if that was possible, I'm also willing to concede that I may be biased as these are the models I have painted.

 

G8Keeper, so you'll be going full blown Deathwing ? Would love to se a list.

No harm in using what you've got Edited February 11, 2021 by G8Keeper

[G8Keeper]

So here's what I think I'm going to try in my first battle, whenever that may be.

 

Vanguard Detchment

 

Belial (Warlord)

Ezekiel 

 

DW Command Squad (2) - T Hammer + SS x2 (free force org slot)

DW Command Squad (2) - T Hammer + SS x2

DW Knights (10)

Bladeguard (6)

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Ancient - TH + SS, Pennant of Remembrance (free force org slot)

DW Apothecary - Chief Apothecary (free force org slot)

 

According to GW's new app this comes out at 1990, I'd throw in a couple of Watchers in the Dark somewhere to make it up to 2000.  The plan would be hold ground with the standard DW squads + Ezekiel with the Bladeguard as a counter punch, based around our Stubborn Defiance secondary.  The Command Squads would deep strike on objectives and generally support the blob of Knights, Belial, Apothecary and Ancient's arrival.

 

Edit: Competitively speaking the Apothecary should be the warlord not Belial, but I'd probably use a CP on a second warlord trait, I can't bring myself to do it :D.

Edited February 12, 2021 by G8Keeper

[Azrael9091]

Coming in this thread because I love the Belial minis and debate

 

So here's what I think I'm going to try in my first battle, whenever that may be.

 

Vanguard Detchment

 

Belial (Warlord)

Ezekiel 

 

DW Command Squad (2) - T Hammer + SS x2 (free force org slot)

DW Command Squad (2) - T Hammer + SS x2

DW Knights (10)

Bladeguard (6)

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Squad - SB's, PF's + Cyclone

DW Ancient - TH + SS, Pennant of Remembrance (free force org slot)

DW Apothecary - Chief Apothecary (free force org slot)

 

According to GW's new app this comes out at 1990, I'd throw in a couple of Watchers in the Dark somewhere to make it up to 2000.  The plan would be hold ground with the standard DW squads + Ezekiel with the Bladeguard as a counter punch, based around our Stubborn Defiance secondary.  The Command Squads would deep strike on objectives and generally support the blob of Knights, Belial, Apothecary and Ancient's arrival.

 

Edit: Competitively speaking the Apothecary should be the warlord not Belial, but I'd probably use a CP on a second warlord trait, I can't bring myself to do it .

 

 

NIce list, you might want to split up the deathwing knight squad to double the threats bubble and maybe add a storm shield in each terminator squad for extra survability

 

 

Belial isn't the greatest melee characters of the game (space marines rarely held that titles ) or the codex (that title belong to the chaplain with teeth of terra). That's not he is interesing.

 

In a deathwing list he is a chapter master with transhuman, a -1 to the damage he takes and a terminator armor, this means that he is really durable, fast where its needed (if you play smart) and that's we want from a force multiplier, especially if said force multiplier can make deathwing unit more reliable. Only for that Belial is an interesting choice

Now Belial weapon and parrying blade make him perfect to to bully either mass of infantry or big monster, like tyranids hive tyrants, you aren't going to send him against a knight, true thats what your DWK are for. But you can send him against Daemon prince, bloodthirster or even mortarion and watch him block them Long enough to have your hard hitter do the job.

 

In conclusion Belial isn't a beastick that will kick ass and take name, he will not mable your adversary tremble in fear only by the sound of his name, but he will frustrate them and  will be part of the reason why they fear a squad of five terminators.  

[G8Keeper]

Coming in this thread because I love the Belial minis and debate

 

NIce list, you might want to split up the deathwing knight squad to double the threats bubble and maybe add a storm shield in each terminator squad for extra survability

 

 

Belial isn't the greatest melee characters of the game (space marines rarely held that titles ) or the codex (that title belong to the chaplain with teeth of terra). That's not he is interesing.

 

In a deathwing list he is a chapter master with transhuman, a -1 to the damage he takes and a terminator armor, this means that he is really durable, fast where its needed (if you play smart) and that's we want from a force multiplier, especially if said force multiplier can make deathwing unit more reliable. Only for that Belial is an interesting choice

Now Belial weapon and parrying blade make him perfect to to bully either mass of infantry or big monster, like tyranids hive tyrants, you aren't going to send him against a knight, true thats what your DWK are for. But you can send him against Daemon prince, bloodthirster or even mortarion and watch him block them Long enough to have your hard hitter do the job.

 

In conclusion Belial isn't a beastick that will kick ass and take name, he will not mable your adversary tremble in fear only by the sound of his name, but he will frustrate them and  will be part of the reason why they fear a squad of five terminators.  

 

The problem with splitting the Knights into two is lack of force org slots in the Vanguard detachment, I just can't see a way around it without dropping another squad.  

 

As for the TH + SS in regular squads, I could just swap around a command squad TH + SS and a regular SB + PF, that would achieve the same thing?  

 

I think you got Belial pretty right, he's going to do some miles and be a decent force multiplayer, perhaps even win you the odd game with the right secondaries, but he's not going to be superstar unit every game.  Opponents will largely leave him alone unless taking Assassinate against you which could be a problem with this list, although every character is pretty durable.

Edited February 19, 2021 by G8Keeper