White Scars vs Death Guard: Postgame

[Prot]

So instead of mudding up the 'strategy' thread we have going, I thought I'd plop the results here of that game.

Here is my list from the strategy thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368954-white-scars-vs-death-guard-tactics/?p=5665531

The short version is we had to stop early. As mentioned my opponent was new to Death Guard, and typically plays Orks and although I knew the new codex was complicated... it is really complicated. There is so much to remember, and I think all the character rules, combined with army wide rules, combined with strats makes for a deep learning curve on the codex.

That said, the basic abilities of the Death Guard are extremely potent and my opponent's list was not even close to optimized.

His list was super basic: 3 squads of larger Plaguemarines with some being assault oriented, some being shooty oriented. 3 Squads of Poxwalkers.

Only 3 characters, Lord of Contagion (had a grenade that does 3 flat damage I think? and a Scythe.) Plaguecaster, and that Blightlord? with plague spewer thing? -3 AP, flat 2 damage? D6 shots.

2 PBC's, 3 Foetid drones, 1 Helbrute, 3 of the Reaper bodyguard Cataphractii.

This is what Mid game looked like:

As you can see I am blocked out. We played a 'quarters' mission and Scars went second.

Here's the breakdown:

- Knowing I'm going second, I decide running straight into him is a bad idea. He actually as a mildly shooty Death Guard army by Death Guard standards, but still aside from the Foetid Spitters, PBC's and Helbrute, the rest was mostly pea shooters.

With that in mind, I decided to take my better bolters, ATV's, and Eradicators (put in Encirclement) and try to be cagey.

- The ATV's attracted the fire of the PBC's early of course, but I kept them out of LoS, but that strat was annoying do a little 'mortal wound' bomb in an area where I hid most my forces... you really can't avoid it.

- I let him take mid table. No choice really if I wanted to stay cagey, use my speed advantage, and shoot him up a bit. He had a LOT of T5 bodies. and Drones coming in hot.

- Somehow scoring wise, I keep him to 10 points a turn, and I take 10 points a turn. This was the good news, the bad news is aside from my Multi Melta shooting, I simply felt absolutely useless.

- My Chaplain on a bike was fairly useless this game. A bit weird, but I felt my Litany choices were bad ( +1 to wound in CC, + to charge/advances) I was simply in NO rush to charge this behemoth slab of rotten meat.

- My Marines were getting widdled and once my ATV's took down one PBC, my Eradicators tried to take the other one out. One of his PBC's ended up charging my ATV's but I overwatched and took 5 damage off of it, then took it down next turn. This cleared his heavy shots, and the Helbrute also went down just on the noze with the reduced damage it took from another ATV.

- I still used my Apothecary to bring back an Outrider (I think it's just FAQd that the ATV's can be healed, but not revived? correct?) But otherwise the Outriders really were horrible. Classic bikes with mixed weaponry and especially a Sarge with something for extra strength seems mandatory.

- Once he claimed the center, I was running out of time. Bring them Down was giving me a couple of points a turn, but other than that it was a trickle of points. With 5 objectives it was harder for him to get more than me so tying that was huge, but this was more a side effect of the table and deployment more than the ability of my army vs his.

- We ended in T4. I tried to push back but his Lord was horribly effective. The Catapharctii were absolute trash in this game. All they did was kill a couple of poxwalkers. The Stormbolters do nothing to Plague marines, and the mixed squad of Chainfists and claws was completely obliterated in one turn by the Lord of Contagion. (flat damage 3 scythe) making me Toughness 3 meaning he's wound on 2's. The contagion would be slowed by the Outriders, but his bomb combined with Flails and scythes took them down easily.

- My Bladeguard acted as a body guard, and finally I had to try to take on the cataphractii body guard... it was rough. I buffed my squad as well as I could, but even after charging my swords only got 1 turn of doing 3 Damage and I managed to kill 2 of them so I was sure that was awesome enough but his last guy wiped my squad (in his turn).

End Game:

I have to confess we didn't add points at the very end. The game point wise was super close, but I wholeheartedly admit I was almost tabled.

I have never felt this ineffective with White Scars in close combat against any other army. Outriders were a very poor choice. S4 hits on a T5 army is a bad feeling.

- Assault Intercessors: oddly enough it's their Pistols that do work! Again the swords do nothing. The Charge bonus is muted by the inherent rules of the DG so it's like you don't have a super doctrine until you are talking about hammers... which mine just never hit. In my case it made more sense for me to attack foetid drones since I was wounding everything on '5's' for the game.

- Bolters, boltrifles, assault bolters... if you can't reach a Poxwalker, forget it. At one point my opponent was even shocked how little damage my army did. Two outrider squads charged 2 Plague marine squads, to kill 2 plague marines in each squad. I had to rethink that... I mean that's... 19 attacks? On the charge.... wounding on 5's, doing one damage (even in T3), causing 4 unsaved wounds. That's crazy.

I charged to assault squads with a hammer each, and that would be 8 marines total, only to kill 3 marines (6 unsaved wounds).

It was after my 'big' assault turn my opponent actually said he felt uncomfortable playing the DG. lol He felt bad because he'd never seen so many White Scars bounce.

After this game I would say I'm negative on a few units going forward, and definitely removing some.

- Cataphractii definitely out.

- Outriders - negative on - these have a role, but I still think traditional bikes are better

- Assault Marines - I truly love these, but this is a good example of needing more firepower. I'm too troop heavy overall so something has to go.

Good stuff:

- Multimelta's: I suspected these would carry me into 9th. The ATV's may not be as good as just MM attack bikes, however they are good enough if you're like me and don't want to paint old Attack Bikers.

- Eradicators: In lack of vehicles and lack of Heavy support overall, these are big with Encirlement.

Potential:

- I have no White Scars Redemptors, but they would be good (I use them a lot with my UM)

- New Speeders? Something fast with more heavy shots.

- Gladiators are too expensive, but the one that has about 30 shots of S6 at -1 is actually big in this match up.

- Grav weaponry. Also good in this match up.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

This just looks like an army that WS cannot get close to.  

 

I've been thinking that maybe an extreme MSU approach is necessary in order to maximize board control and minimize exposure to superior enemy durability.  Going to try this using combat squading next time i face DG.

Edited February 12, 2021 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[Tokugawa]

Grav-cannon and grav-gun don't work against DG(dmg2 = dmg1).

[Prot]

This just looks like an army that WS cannot get close to.  

 

I've been thinking that maybe an extreme MSU approach is necessary in order to maximize board control and minimize exposure to superior enemy durability.  Going to try this using combat squading next time i face DG.

that’s my thinking. I’m going to try next game adjusting to a ranged game until I can use my assault units more like a scalpel instead of a blunt instrument.  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Prot you should really try vanguard vets with jump packs... here’s my build:

 

8x stormshield

4x lighting claw

4x thunderhammer

 

I think this is a great combo vs DG. On the charge you’re sure to a lot of attacks... claws being D1 damage is perfect plus the innate reroll to wound. The hammers equate to D2/3 damage is really good. They are fast and can deep strike. The shields mean they should be able to stick around and hold something nasty up for at least one turn.

 

Outriders are hawt garbage unfortunately for several reasons. Too bad the terminators couldn’t have been more helpful - prolly hammenators are the way to go for Scars.

[Prot]

Prot you should really try vanguard vets with jump packs... here’s my build:

 

8x stormshield

4x lighting claw

4x thunderhammer

 

I think this is a great combo vs DG. On the charge you’re sure to a lot of attacks... claws being D1 damage is perfect plus the innate reroll to wound. The hammers equate to D2/3 damage is really good. They are fast and can deep strike. The shields mean they should be able to stick around and hold something nasty up for at least one turn.

 

Outriders are hawt garbage unfortunately for several reasons. Too bad the terminators couldn’t have been more helpful - prolly hammenators are the way to go for Scars.

 

I think you’re right. Hammernators might be the best choice for WS. But yea, claws are a great weapon for a CC army that is going to go up against the DG. I don’t have any and would have to proxy the Vanguard but I think it’s a solid option for WS too.

 

I think if I got Vanguard I would use them mostly with the WS so what is the recommended build for Vanguard with White Scars?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d use the same build I posted which is for my Templars which is another melee centric faction. You could kit the sergeant with double claws though.

[jgascoine011]

Death Guard are the most anti-combat army out there right now.

You will not beat them by being pure combat.

 

However they have 2 huge weaknesses

1) They are paintfull slow, the fast unit being M10"

2) There shooting is basically just them farting

 

Take redemptor dreadnoughts, plasma interceptors, outriders, and just keep them at range until you are ready to go into combat

Dont just turn 1 charge them.

[Prot]

I don’t have redemptors for my white scars so I’m trying the new speeder in my next game. I am playing against SOB tomorrow. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Good luck and may your dice roll hoticus !

[Riddlesworth]

If you built a White Scars army around getting +1 damage from the doctrine - where units like outriders and assault intercessors shine, I can see Death Guard being an absolute hard counter. as you found, traditional bikes just fill that role better with simil;ar volumes ot attacks but also special weapons to add punch

 

Its one of the cases where catechism of fire on the chaplain supporting plasceptors is real valuable, but as litanies have to be chosen at list creation, that has to be your plan for every matchup.

[Prot]

So I had another game VS. Death guard last night.

 

I used my fairly traditional list except I expanded the Bladeguard unit up to 6 and that became my one unit. I got rid of the Ancient and went all in on supporting the unit with the LIbby, Khan, and Chaplain.

 

Essentially that unit won me the game. He couldn't take it down. That said the rest of the marines and bikes felt like throwing snot into a fire. He had the win until turn 4 when my Bladeguard went deep into his zone and took out his terminators and a lot of his obsec which was protecting his PBC's. 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Pics or it didn't happen!

[Prot]

Pics or it didn't happen!

well I have a few pics but it’s the same table top. Honestly I upload so many pics it’s a lot of work and I don’t get a lot of interest in the WS forum (which is a shame). 

 

end game was a 5 point difference. 

[6262]

Fwiw I appreciate you burning the candle for us. I'm more lurker than poster but I've always enjoyed the insight into the chapter since I picked them up last April when my Deathwatch and I parted ways.

 

I think I've played maybe 4-5 games since this whole plague year started and my opponent pool is basically the same player so as you're time and energy allows please keep the lights on. As the posts seen pretty chipper and the feeling of experimentation is much more interesting than another posts about what is best and how a game ought to be played.

 

Congrats on the win against an opponent army I'm currently dreading

[Riddlesworth]

what powers on the libby and litanies on the chaplain? assuming ride the winds, exhortation of rage and someone carrying the plume?

[Prot]

what powers on the libby and litanies on the chaplain? assuming ride the winds, exhortation of rage and someone carrying the plume?

 

I changed it up this game and I'm thinking I'll keep it this way for a while.... Litany of +1 wounding in CC (Rage), and Hate were used most often (I took the Faith one for the 5+ mortal wound shield just for something different against all the mortals I find my Bladeguard receive.)

The Chappy on bike also had the Plume. 

 

I will say though aside from my 6 man Bladeguard unit the army felt flimsy. The really weird unit of the game for me outside of bladguard was the Thunderstrike speeder. It had its best game yet. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I say this is quote surprising to me.