When will primaris marines ride in a Stormraven?

[Helias_Tancred]

I just finished reading the new Uriel Ventris novel. It was decent. Typical Bolter porn with an old beloved character. However in it, Graham McNeil has primaris marines in Uriel Vemtris's command squad including Ventris in Mk X gravis armor, riding around in a Stormraven.

 

That got me thinking, when will we see the transportation rules loosen up among marines? Or if this is a true pipe dream, why do you think GW would never allow this to happen?

 

 

 

 

[Jings]

I honestly don't get why they stuck with that after giving OG marine the second wound. Doesn't make sense a Repulsor can carry Aggressors but not a squad of Tacs, or a Land Raider can carry Terminators but not Intercessors. The cynic in me says it's a rule from on high to increase sales of the Primaris transport kits. It's something that's ignored in my house. 

[Gederas]

Primaris also ride in Land Raiders in the Dark Imperium novel :lol:

 

Basically, GW wants you to buy the overpriced (and terrible) Primaris transports

[Helias_Tancred]

Primaris also ride in Land Raiders in the Dark Imperium novel

 

Basically, GW wants you to buy the overpriced (and terrible) Primaris transports

 

I was hoping it wasn't that reason alone. lol.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

The short answer is never, because if you can use your old transports to carry Primaris then you will never buy the new hotness, and let it be forgotten, GW is a miniatures company that happens to produce rules to play toy soldier with those minis, and makes up reasons for various groups of soldiers to fight. 

 

GW has also, as best I can tell, done their best to delineate Primaris armies and Firstborn armies as two different armies entirely. So far as they're concerned, they just happen to share a codex but for gameplay and purchase purposes are entirely separate. 

 

I recommend a house rule with your local players to have Primaris in the traditional transports as per the lore. GW will not provide.

[Doghouse]

It seems to be fine for in universe fiction but not for tabletop which is odd even though I understand the logic of model sales and all that. But the problem I have is that I would buy a ton of the older vehicles if Primaris could use them.

 

For me Primaris feels like there was a hard plan to phase out the old stuff then at the last minute they bottled it and suddenly changed course. 

 

I love the old tracked vehicles and would love to have Primaris rolling out in Rhino's, Corvus Blackstars, Storm Ravens and Land Raiders.

 

Adding the extra wound to Firstborn was a really nice move but I now feel that it makes the size issues when it comes to transport a moot point for me. 

[Ishagu]

They are keeping the ranges seperately so when they do release a Primaris-only codex a few years from now you won't have lost any options.

 

Imagine you had access to Landraiders as a transport for your Primaris and when the new book came out it was no longer a legal option. People would rage even more.

 

The classic Astartes units are not the future, and at some point they might begin to phase out some units.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

I really dont get why they don't allow primaris in a drop pod. I hope to god they don't try and primaris it by sticking a bazillion guns on it. I just want a cheap transport....seems to much to ask for.

[Karhedron]

I know what you mean. Space Marines without the ability to come plunging in from orbit in pods don't feel like proper space marines.

[Ishagu]

That's more of a thematic shortcoming than a gameplay one.

 

And people are free to homebrew it in their casual games if they want it.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

They are keeping the ranges seperately so when they do release a Primaris-only codex a few years from now you won't have lost any options.

 

Imagine you had access to Landraiders as a transport for your Primaris and when the new book came out it was no longer a legal option. People would rage even more.

 

The classic Astartes units are not the future, and at some point they might begin to phase out some units.

 

Yep, that's been my take as well - it would have been simple to go ahead and add the PRIMARIS keyword to Drop Pods and Stormravens back in 2017 since they clearly weren't going to be releasing actual Primaris versions of those models for a few years. But if they had done that, then when they get around to actually releasing those new models, they're stuck with two bad choices: 1) Either piss people off by removing the PRIMARIS keyword from models that had it at one time, or 2) Lose out on a considerable number of sales of the new product as the existing models in players' collections will perform the same function. Enticing people into picking up Firstborn vehicles and then rendering those vehicles uninhabitable by Primaris would have been seen as a crass bait and switch no matter how much GW might have honestly just wanted to offer players transport options they wouldn't have otherwise had for several years. Same deal if they'd just moved them to Legends when the Primaris replacements showed up. Just asking for customer goodwill to take a nosedive later on for the sake of a short-term spike in sales up front.

 

What they chose was the long-game option that requires some money in the bank, foregoing some easy sales of existing product to protect the later introduction of Primaris equivalents of those products.

 

That said, while I haven't predicted anything in the way of a Primaris Drop Pod this coming year, I could easily be wrong - the Hammerfall Bunker is clearly our first look at what the overal drop aesthetic of the Primaris line will be. And GW may be planning on following up on that sooner than later. I just personally figured they'd go for a flying transport first and I couldn't see them doing both in the same year.

[Brother Kraskor]

I know what you mean. Space Marines without the ability to come plunging in from orbit in pods don't feel like proper space marines.

 

+1 

[Gederas]

That's more of a thematic shortcoming than a gameplay one.

 

And people are free to homebrew it in their casual games if they want it.

Sadly I have people who REEEEEEEEEEEE if you mention homebrew in my circle of players, so I couldn't do that :/

[Doghouse]

They are keeping the ranges seperately so when they do release a Primaris-only codex a few years from now you won't have lost any options.

 

Imagine you had access to Landraiders as a transport for your Primaris and when the new book came out it was no longer a legal option. People would rage even more.

 

The classic Astartes units are not the future, and at some point they might begin to phase out some units.

 

While I do agree that it's highly probable the Firstborn stuff will be eventually phased out it's not guaranteed just yet and wouldn't mean they'd have to get rid of all the existing vehicle kits even if they did. Land Raiders for example would just need a hatch sprue swap and Drop Pods have nothing Firstborn in them besides Storm Bolters. It could the case we have now where they leave them in but just don't update the models.

 

Stuff like the Land Raider, Storm Raven, Drop Pods would still be serviceable as kits. We've got lots of GW races still using the same kits for some models for a decade or more.  

 

While it is extremely possible they could be phased out completely one day that might not happen for another two or three editions which if they stick to the past format could be around ten years.

 

Deathwing Terminators certainly have gotten a lot of love this edition that makes them an attractive buy, does that mean people are wasting money buying them at the moment for mostly Primaris armies for example?

[templargdt]

Primaris also ride in Land Raiders in the Dark Imperium novel

 

Basically, GW wants you to buy the overpriced (and terrible) Primaris transports

This is the entire reason the answer is never.

[L30n1d4s]

I wonder if GW is actually not going in the opposite direction (i.e. moving toward merging Primaris and First Born), as evidenced by the recent buff to 2W for all the Firstborn models and the continued, almost stubborn, inclusion of all Firstborn squad types in the Codex (to the point that it is getting exceptionally bloated in numbers of units).

 

 

This may sound a bit strange to many, especially on first observation, but hear me out on this a little.... What if eventually GW evolves the lore so that, out of necessity/desperation, ALL marines cross the Rubicon and become Primaris?

 

 

Gameplay-wise, they could then buff First Born up to Primaris stats (i.e. +1A, Primaris Key Word and, thus, access to Primaris only Strats, etc.), making them "fully integrated" into the new Marine forces. Additionally, with this move, they can make both First Born and Primaris, who are now in essence the same, all able to ride in ALL Space Marine transports.... i.e. First Born can ride Impulsors and Repulsors, Primaris can ride Drop Pods, Razorbacks, Stormravens, Land Raiders, etc.

 

 

The final piece to this, from the GW Marketing perspective, would be to release new Primaris models for all the old First Born... i.e. Primaris sized models for Tactical Marines, Devastators, Sternguard/Vanguard, Bikes, Terminators, etc. etc. With these new models, they could probably also include some small new rules/war gear options for each unit in order to make sure they a still differentiated between First Born and Primaris squads (i.e. Primaris Tactical Marines could get 1 SW/HW/CCW per 5 models in the squad, while Intercessors might get an additional rule that gives them free re-rolls of 1 to Wound in close combat, for example).

 

 

What would GW gain from doing all this and "threading the needle" for this complicated, evolutionary process over multiple years to "merge" Primaris and First Born, you might ask? Well, two things, I think:

 

1) They get to make sure that all their new Primaris models sell, especially to players with already large armies who might otherwise not buy any Primaris at all

 

2) They get to allow players to either use their old armies still (which seems pretty important to GW, based on their choices to date and what they have expressed about making sure First Born are not obsolete), or have the option to "upgrade" these First Born squads (i.e. Tactics, Assault Marines, Devastators, Company Vets, etc.) to new, improved, Primaris sized/shaped models (which also would make more profit for GW).

 

 

Basically, I think this is GW's attempt to have their cake and eat it too... sell new models/continue profiting from their Astartes cash cow, while also not alienating their long-time player bases with massive/treasured armies of First Born (perhaps like what happened when they killed off the Old World for Age of Sigmar).

 

 

Anyway, we will see what happens, but just a theory on what they may be attempting here. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by L30n1d4s

[Ishagu]

They don't want to upset anyone. They are in the midst of a model refresh/redesign. In many ways the Primaris units are a lot more varied and specialised than the classic Astartes, but the range is not yet complete.

 

Also the Primaris are more distinctive from the Chaos Astartes which is good for the hobby in terms of variety and having very distinctive factions.

 

Nothing will happen quickly but eventually the Primaris units will probably be able to plug every gap in what you might want the army to do, and then they might start to phase out some older units by putting them into Legends.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Ishagu

[Doghouse]

 

*Snip*

 

Yeah it's certainly leaning that way, the crossing of the Rubicon seems to be talked about as being easier now. It would make sense from an Astartes point of view because firstly the Primaris are being presented as a gift from the Emperor with the Torchbearer fleets offering them to Chapters. The implications I've seen is that to say no is a bit of a slap in the face of the Custodians who are acting as his voice. And secondly crossing the Rubicon makes them a more effective weapon and given the horrors they face all the time I doubt any would fear the process. I expect there are some Chapters that have already done it as a whole. 

 

I'm personally going the route of making my Primaris have older marks of armour but that raises the issue of going back to the OP of this thread which means no iconic Firstborn transport vehicles.

 

I would be extremely surprised if they dropped some iconic units such as Terminators though.

[Marshal Reinhard]

This may sound a bit strange to many, especially on first observation, but hear me out on this a little.... What if eventually GW evolves the lore so that, out of necessity/desperation, ALL marines cross the Rubicon and become Primaris?

 

I'm convinced this is not only likely, but eventually inevitable. When all marines are Primaris, no marines are primaris.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Personally if 10th was firstborn free I wouldn't be surprised, but 11th seems more likely

[Gederas]

This may sound a bit strange to many, especially on first observation, but hear me out on this a little.... What if eventually GW evolves the lore so that, out of necessity/desperation, ALL marines cross the Rubicon and become Primaris?

I'm convinced this is not only likely, but eventually inevitable. When all marines are Primaris, no marines are primaris.

Exactly.

 

Aaron Dembski-Bowden (PRAISE BE TO THE BALD MASTER!) basically wrote this in the novel Spear of the Emperor. Primaris are, at the end of the day, Astartes. There is no difference between the two when it comes down to it. The focus on differentiating them is entirely on the fanbase

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The thing is, even if all the Firstborn cross the Rubicon, that doesn't make the seats on a Stormraven any bigger. So I don't know how it's a solution to that problem. If they'd done it from the beginning, it would be one thing. But now they've established that those old vehicles just aren't made with accomodation for Primaris-sized Marines in mind. Retconning that would be possible rules-wise, but it would spike the Lame-meter.

 

Beyond that, the idea of Tactical and Assault marines still having vital roles within a Space Marines Chapter isn't solved by having them all cross the Rubicon either. Because there was this little thing called the Ultima Founding and those chapters had no Firstborn from the start. Yet they've supposedly done just fine without fielding any Tactical or Assault Marines. So an all-Primaris chapter needs to be viable not only to be consistent with the lore, but also to follow through on not just the implicit promise GW made with the Ultima Founding vis-a-vis new chapters that players have created, but the explicit promise GW themselves have made with official rules for Ultima chapters, of which I feel pretty safe in saying that the Silver Templars are only the first of several (maybe not "many" - non-Marine players are already squawking enough).

 

So no, I don't see Tactical Marines crossing the Rubicon and becoming Primaris Tactical Marines. I see them becoming Intercessors. Or maybe Heavy Intercessors. And I think Assault Marines either turn into Assault Intercessors or whatever Omnis-armored Close Support squad GW hasn't released yet, but has always had on their back-office full breakdown of a Primaris chapter.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Lord Nord

[Gederas]

The thing is, even if all the Firstborn cross the Rubicon, that doesn't make the seats on a Stormraven any bigger. So I don't know how it's a solution to that problem. If they'd done it from the beginning, it would be one thing. But now they've established that those old vehicles just aren't made with accomodation for Primaris-sized Marines in mind. Retconning that would be possible rules-wise, but it would spike the Lame-meter.

 

Beyond that, the idea of Tactical and Assault marines still having vital roles within a Space Marines Chapter isn't solved by having them all cross the Rubicon either. Because there was this little thing called the Ultima Founding and those chapters had no Firstborn from the start. Yet they've supposedly done just fine without fielding any Tactical or Assault Marines. So an all-Primaris chapter needs to be viable not only to be consistent with the lore, but also to follow through on not just the implicit promise GW made with the Ultima Founding vis-a-vis new chapters that players have created, but the explicit promise GW themselves have made with official rules for Ultima chapters, of which I feel pretty safe in saying that the Silver Templars are only the first of several (maybe not "many" - non-Marine players are already squawking enough).

 

So no, I don't see Tactical Marines crossing the Rubicon and becoming Primaris Tactical Marines. I see them becoming Intercessors. Or maybe Heavy Intercessors. And I think Assault Marines either turn into Assault Intercessors or whatever Omnis-armored Close Support squad GW hasn't released yet, but has always had on their back-office full breakdown of a Primaris chapter.

In Dark Imperium a Primaris marine rides in a Land Raider that's carrying a full amount of Marines in it besides himself. So ten in total counting the Primaris.

 

Per the rules, a Thunderhawk can carry Primaris, same amount as Firstborn (and it can now carry both at the same time unlike 8th edition where it couldn't, because REASONS). Tacticus takes up 1, Gravis take up 2, Primaris Jump Packs (so Shrike, Inceptors and Suppressors) are 3 and Primaris bikers are 4.

 

Basically, if it can transport Terminators (Stormravens can) it can easily transport Primaris.

[Ishagu]

And in the lore a Thunderhawk can also carry some Guardsmen.

 

Lore limitations and Game limitations are two different things.

[WrathOfTheLion]

A stormraven and LR can transport terminators, no? The idea it can't transport an astartes a little taller is utterly ridiculous in lore, hence why black library ignores it.