State of the Union (Heresy)

[The Scorpion]

Okay, there is some talk of Phase 3 Dark Angel rules. Thankfully without pictures, because I'm hating what I see. I hope these are made up, but given how they ressemble that of book 9, I very much fear they are not.

"Dark Angels Legion Trait is now the Wings of the Hexagrammaton. Choose one for free for all models in all units in your army with LA:DA. A unit can only benefit from one Wing at a time, so if you have a Dreadwing unit and a Firewing consul attached to that unit, you need to pick which one at the start of the game turn. Techmarines and Apothecaries can only go in units with at least one model that has the same Wing as them. Retinues can have a different Wing than their leader. Scions of the Hekatonystika are now purely for Inner Circle Cenobium and the new Consul."

 

  this.   this so much. We're already starting with the wrong foot. This is the first set of rules that I truly hate.

 

The problem with book 9 rules stem precisely from the fact that the Wings aren't self-contained to their Rites of War. Because that's what they are: formations, not orders. And this doubles down on that basic design problem.

 

And it was so simple to fix! The only thing they had to do to was making Hekatonystika the Legion Trait, to represent the myriad knightly orders and interlocking circles of the legion, instead of burying it as footnote shared by a couple units.

 

At least the wing bonuses appear to have more internal balance, but the core problem of rules being based on the wings still has a Butterfly effect.

Edited March 30, 2022 by The Scorpion

[WrathOfTheLion]

They don't cost points anymore by the read of it, that's a big deal.

[Noserenda]

Ooof some hard nerfs for Blood Angels there. Personally im not a big fan of defining what model of armour a given terminator unit is using, unless, like Gorgons, its a big part of what the unit is. Feels driven purely my commercial reasons.

[The Scorpion]

Here are the aforementionned traits.

Deathwing: +1 to hit when using weapons that follow old Mastery of the Blade restrictions. +1 to Ram Strength for vehicles.

Better than the old one I suppose, if only because it's not fully invalidated by Firewing anymore.

Firewing: +1 to Wound when shooting or fighting a unit with at least one IC in it.

Great bonus. Situational, but it will come up in every game against at least one unit, which odds are is the one you want dead the most.

Ravenwing: +1 to Run moves, reroll damage mitigation (Shrouded, FNP) for Cavalry (bikers), if you're a vehicle +2" to move at Cruising Speed.

Eh. Could be a hit or a miss depending of how the universal rules described above function. Please do not be redundant.

Stormwing: +1 to hit when shooting with combi- bolters, bolt pistols, boltguns

Emperor, deliver us from the idea that LINE units are a specialist formation. They are, by their very definition, the exact opposite of that. At least this is a decent-ish bonus for those who want to unleash the fury of the First without any of the fancy specialist list builds. Show' em what the Principia Bellicosa is made of, boys.

Besides, we most likely already have a real Stormwing rite in the form of Zone Mortalis assault force.

Ironwing: BS2 snap shots if you're a vehicle, reroll hit rolls of 1 when shooting at vehicles for everyone.

As always, the ironwing bonuses struggles to decide if it wants to help vehicles, or help the infantry within the vehicles.

Dreadwing: -1S for flamer, plasma, volkite, and phosphex shooting at you. -1 to the poison wound roll when shooting at you.

Sutuational, but at least its thematic, which is more than can be said for the old one.

 

 

 

All in all, not a fan of these. Not because they are weak (though some definitively are) but because they do not belong here. Missed opportunity to represent the Calibanite influence, or the unforgiving side of the legion as exterminators, or their generalist nature as the base upon which all other legions are built their own doctrines.

All because whoever designed the book 9 rules couldn't think past the wings, and now who knows when will this stupid design choice leave the Dark Angels legion rules, if it ever does.

Edited March 30, 2022 by The Scorpion

[Slips]

Here are the aforementionned traits.

Deathwing: +1 to hit when using weapons that follow old Mastery of the Blade restrictions. +1 to Ram Strength for vehicles.

Better than the old one I suppose, if only because it's not fully invalidated by Firewing anymore.

 

Firewing: +1 to Wound when shooting or fighting a unit with at least one IC in it.

Great bonus. Situational, but it will come up in every game against at least one unit, which odds are is the one you want dead the most.

 

Ravenwing: +1 to Run moves, reroll damage mitigation (Shrouded, FNP) for Cavalry (bikers), if you're a vehicle +2" to move at Cruising Speed.

Eh. Could be a hit or a miss depending of how the universal rules described above function. Please do not be redundant.

 

Stormwing: +1 to hit when shooting with combi- bolters, bolt pistols, boltguns

Emperor, deliver us from the idea that LINE units are a specialist formation. They are, by their very definition, the exact opposite of that. At least this is a decent-ish bonus for those who want to unleash the fury of the First without any of the fancy specialist list builds. Show' em what the Principia Bellicosa is made of, boys.

Besides, we most likely already have a real Stormwing rite in the form of Zone Mortalis assault force.

 

Ironwing: BS2 snap shots if you're a vehicle, reroll hit rolls of 1 when shooting at vehicles for everyone.

As always, the ironwing bonuses struggles to decide if it wants to help vehicles, or help the infantry within the vehicles.

 

Dreadwing: -1S for flamer, plasma, volkite, and phosphex shooting at you. -1 to the poison wound roll when shooting at you.

Sutuational, but at least its thematic, which is more than can be said for the old one.

 

 

 

All in all, not a fan of these. Not because they are weak (though some definitively are) but because they do not belong here. Missed opportunity to represent the Calibanite influence, or the unforgiving side of the legion as exterminators, or their generalist nature as the base upon which all other legions are built their own doctrines.

All because whoever designed the book 9 rules couldn't think past the wings, and now who knows when will this stupid design choice leave the Dark Angels legion rules, if it ever does.

I dunno dude, being able to, for free, pick any one of these rules on a unit-by-unit basis for stuff in your list makes these pretty decent to me.

 

Its the RoWs that force certain wing selections on you but at the baseline, you can just pick and choose whatever you want for a given unit from this list.

 

Otherwise, why put the stipulation in that you have to choose which wing youre using in a multi-wing unit.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Slips

[Vazzy]

It’s starting to look like Enigmatii cabal are gone gone, which has me sounding very much like the Riddler right now. At least they got a run out at Adepticon.

[The Scorpion]

 

I dunno dude, being able to, for free, pick any one of these rules on a unit-by-unit basis for stuff in your list makes these pretty decent to me.

 

 

Its the RoWs that force certain wing selections on you but at the baseline, you can just pick and choose whatever you want for a given unit from this list.

 

Otherwise, why put the stipulation in that you have to choose which wing youre using in a multi-wing unit.

 

Cherrypicking the best trait for each unit is indeed good, as the Thousand Sons will tell you. Giving Ironwing to all the tanks of your Stormwing list is neat, especially since Stormwing gives zero bonus to vehicles.

 

But is it really what the First Legion is about? By speading the influence of the wings this much, the wings themselves become less relevant to the actual listbuilding, which is ironic (and soul crushing). These rules treat the wings as if they were one of the secret orders of the Legion, which they were not.

They are not bad rules in and on themselves, but they are bad rules for the Dark Angels.

 

At least the Armoury looks good.

Stasis grenades from combi-grenade launchers are gone

Stasis missiles are S4 AP- Blast(3") Concussive(1)

Calibanite Warblade S+1 AP3 Rending(6+)

Terranic Greatsword S+2 AP3 Two-handed, Rending(5+), Murderous Strike(5+)

[Legionary Pallas]

Saw some Raven Guard, Space Wolf, and White Scars leaks on the 30k subreddit. Didn't include legion traits but the Scars sheets for their unique units included the movement buff that was rumoured for them, so I think we can probably assume that it's true until we see the trait page for it.

 

Whoever decided +1" of movement was an acceptable legion trait come out here, I just wanna talk.

[Slips]

 

 

I dunno dude, being able to, for free, pick any one of these rules on a unit-by-unit basis for stuff in your list makes these pretty decent to me.

 

 

Its the RoWs that force certain wing selections on you but at the baseline, you can just pick and choose whatever you want for a given unit from this list.

 

Otherwise, why put the stipulation in that you have to choose which wing youre using in a multi-wing unit.

 

Cherrypicking the best trait for each unit is indeed good, as the Thousand Sons will tell you. Giving Ironwing to all the tanks of your Stormwing list is neat, especially since Stormwing gives zero bonus to vehicles.

 

But is it really what the First Legion is about? By speading the influence of the wings this much, the wings themselves become less relevant to the actual listbuilding, which is ironic (and soul crushing). These rules treat the wings as if they were one of the secret orders of the Legion, which they were not.

They are not bad rules in and on themselves, but they are bad rules for the Dark Angels.

 

At least the Armoury looks good.

Stasis grenades from combi-grenade launchers are gone

Stasis missiles are S4 AP- Blast(3") Concussive(1)

Calibanite Warblade S+1 AP3 Rending(6+)

Terranic Greatsword S+2 AP3 Two-handed, Rending(5+), Murderous Strike(5+)

 

But doesnt HH DA basically operate in such a way where they have units from across the varying wings lending their expertise to given situations and only taking the lead when theyre best suited for it?

 

And, if you want the Wing to be the overarching structure for whatever army youre building either use the wings RoW or give all the units in your army the same wing buff?

 

Like, I actually don't see what you see is problematic here?

Saw some Raven Guard, Space Wolf, and White Scars leaks on the 30k subreddit. Didn't include legion traits but the Scars sheets for their unique units included the movement buff that was rumoured for them, so I think we can probably assume that it's true until we see the trait page for it.

 

Whoever decided +1" of movement was an acceptable legion trait come out here, I just wanna talk.

Your marines having a base movement speed of 8" - which is 40k Eldar speed btw) - doesnt seem as bad as you might think.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yeah, normally the force is supposed to pivot around the leadership of the wing that suits best. A formation is supposed to be mixed wing, at least according to the Lion El'Jonson novel and Book 9. The entire formation isn't mono-wing like how the Ravenwing and Deathwing might deploy in 40k.

[The Scorpion]

The Lion:
At the start of your turn, pick whatever Wing you want for him
Lion's Choler
Point of the Blade
Mastery of the Legion
Adamantium Will 3+
Stasis grenades
M8", WS8 BS6 S7 T6 W6 I7 A7 Ld10
His sword is not listed on the Deathwing MotB buffs

Still has no rules to represent his tactical acumen, unless you count the wing rules. Ah, the ever present wing rules. That is if "Mastery of the Legion" doesn't give us a pleasant surprise where Lion can do shenanigans like Fulgrim or Horus.

Paladin of the Hekatonystika Consul:
+30pts; Terranic greatsword at no extra cost, WS6, Ld10, can take one of the Cenobium Hekatonystika

If you are wondering what this fella does for your army, it's because this is where the Deathwing rules should've been. A commander that enables vets & termies, at the expense of only being able to take vanilla Rites of War with his "master of the legion". This is how you could've put vets in pods to recreate scenes like the Book 9 assault on Triplex.

As thing stand however, he is more of a beatstick than anything else. But maybe Hekatonystica has been reworked to include multiple model buffs?

[bushman101]

Day of Revelation looks pretty bad :(

No 1st turn drops, no shroud, no pinning.

I hope this is fake.....

[The Scorpion]

Yeah, normally the force is supposed to pivot around the leadership of the wing that suits best. A formation is supposed to be mixed wing, at least according to the Lion El'Jonson novel and Book 9. The entire formation isn't mono-wing like how the Ravenwing and Deathwing might deploy in 40k.

Exactly. You said it. According to Lion novel (which to be fair, is good) and Book 9 (which is good exept for wings lore). Before this the wings had been formations akin to 40k precisely because they were meant as the origin of said formations.

Leave tactical flexibility to the Ultramarines, that's their thing and they do it better than the First. I wanted to see strategical flexibility, where the specialization is at army level, not squads. Hordes of marines in black armor, united in tactical purpose.

 

But it looks like I am alone in this. And I am starting to sound like the grogs at 4chan, which is not a good sign. Better keep searching for leaks.

[Slips]

 

Yeah, normally the force is supposed to pivot around the leadership of the wing that suits best. A formation is supposed to be mixed wing, at least according to the Lion El'Jonson novel and Book 9. The entire formation isn't mono-wing like how the Ravenwing and Deathwing might deploy in 40k.

Exactly. You said it. According to Lion novel (which to be fair, is good) and Book 9 (which is good exept for wings lore). Before this the wings had been formations akin to 40k precisely because they were meant as the origin of said formations.

Leave tactical flexibility to the Ultramarines, that's their thing and they do it better than the First. I wanted to see strategical flexibility, where the specialization is at army level, not squads. Hordes of marines in black armor, united in tactical purpose.

 

But it looks like I am alone in this. And I am starting to sound like the grogs at 4chan, which is not a good sign. Better keep searching for leaks.

 

The RoWs were posted like, immediately after the lions rules:

Rites of War:

 

The Serpent's Bane:

- Legion Seeker Squads as Troops

- Select three Priority Targets from Primarch, HQ, LoW, Elites. +1 to hit for Firewing units when targeting those Priority Targets or a unit that's been joined by the Priority Target (shooting and melee). If there's less than three, pick from anything,

- Firewing Characters (not just ICs, so incl. Sergeants) gain +1A in combat with a Priority Target

- Up to three Firewing Troops can gain Infiltrate

- All Troops must be Firewing

- +3VP to your opponent for each surviving Priority Target that is not falling back or pinned at the end of the battle

- WL must be Firewing or the Lion

 

The Seeker's Arrow:

- Sky Hunters and Outriders as troops

- Ravenwing ICs can be given Hit and Run for +35pts

- Ravenwing Cavalry and Infantry gain Outflank

- No vehicles that aren't Flyers, Skimmers, or Fast

- All troops and Fast Attack must be Ravenwing

- WL must be Ravenwing or the Lion

 

The Storm of War:

- Despoilers, Tacticals, and Assault Squads of at least 20 models can include a Centurion. He takes up no force org slots, cannot be the Warlord, is part of the unit and cannot leave it, cannot become a consul, and must be Stormwing.

- Despoilers, Tacticals, and Assault Squads can be selected as Elites

Assault Squads can be selected as FA; if they are FA, they have FNP(4+) when targeted by Overwatch or Interceptor

- All Tacticals, Despoilers, and Assault Squads must be Stormwing

- No Tacticals or Despoilers can take DTs

- No Deep Strike Assault, Subterranean Assault, or Flanking Assault

- WL must be Stormwing or the Lion

 

The Unbroken Vow:

- Tartaros Terminators, Cataphractii Terminators, and Veterans become Troops and gain Heart of the Legion (FNP6+ within 6" of an objective or +1 to existing FNP)

- +1 attack for Deathwing ICs within unknown distance of an objective

- After deployment, place an objective at the center of the battlefield or as close as possible; at the end of the battle, the opponent gains +1VP if you don't control it, or +d3 VP if they do

- All Cataphractii, Tartaros, or Veterans must be Deathwing

- WL must be Deathwing or the Lion

 

The Steel Fist:

- Predator Squadrons as troops

- Kratos Squadrons as Elites

- All Ironwing Infantry of 10 or less models can take a LR Proteus as DT, Spartan if more

- All Infantry must start embarked on a transport that is not a Flyer

- All Troops, Predators, and Kratos must be Ironwing

- No Deep Strike, Subterranean Assault, or Flanking Assault

- WL must be Ironwing or the Lion

 

The Eskaton Imperative:

- Destroyer Assault Squads, Mortalis Destroyer Squads, and Interemptors as troops

- Dreadwing get +1 to wound against units within Dangerous Terrain

- Dreadwing autopass Dangerous Terrain tests

- All Open Terrain outside of either player's DZ is Difficult, unless it's impassable, a fortification, a building, or already Dangerous

- You get up to some unknown number of Eskaton markers, which can be no larger than a 25mm base, to be placed anywhere not within 6" of a battlefield edge or either player's DZ; everything within some unknown distance of this Eskaton marker, including terrain pieces, is Dangerous Terrain

- The WL must be Dreadwing or the Lion

- No Fortifications

- If the enemy has any units outside their DZ that aren't pinned or falling back, they gain an unknown amount of VP

- All Troops, Destroyer Assault Squads, or Destroyer Mortalis Squads must be Dreadwing

[Cris R]

 

I think any possibility of me revisiting HH has been dashed as blood angels seem worse and I bet sanguinius remains pretty poor too

Remains poor...?

 

Sanguinius was an excellent primarch. He added synergy to jump units, unlocked FOC stuff and was able to fight an enormous amount of stuff. Mathematically he would break and sweep any marine unit he charged (that obviously doesn't have fearless or stubborn). I think he could clear out a 10 man brick of cataphractii for 2 wounds total? That's on top of him instant deathing every daemon, custodes, and mechanicum unit that tried to tarpit him with wounds.

 

As I said, excellent.

 

I do think the new day of revelation is terrible. The text is blurry, but it seems like your reserves come in starting on turn 2, compared to the previous 1. The deepstrike marker is cute, but really, a Damocles basically recreates both parts of the new benefit. Oh and no more bonus initiative on the charge, or cover on the deepstrike?

 

 

I agree the new DoR is not remotely better than the current one, even with my earlier take. But you can't always run a Damocles in every single game to get these benefits, so that's where this version of DoR can come in handy. But like I said above, I hope the final version of the RoW makes it a more compelling choice than Angel's Wrath or Drop Assault Vanguard if those don't change. It would be really disappointing to see generic Deep Strike RoWs be more viable options after playing a great one for the Legion over the last few years.

 

I also just realized the BA LA rules don't have the vehicle restrictions we have now. This is going to make things a lot more flexible with vehicle options depending on your choice of RoW. 

[Darkwrath121]

Day of Revelation looks pretty bad :(

No 1st turn drops, no shroud, no pinning.

I hope this is fake.....

Having seen the lot, no. It's almost certainly not fake at this point. Seems all the WS9 primarchs dropped to WS8, and Crimson Paladins are cheaper, with WS5 and 2W. Angels Tears and Dawnbreakers seem fun too. Personally a fan of Perdition weapins being split into Blades, Axes, Spears, and Mauls for only 5pts more!

[Legionary Pallas]

 

Saw some Raven Guard, Space Wolf, and White Scars leaks on the 30k subreddit. Didn't include legion traits but the Scars sheets for their unique units included the movement buff that was rumoured for them, so I think we can probably assume that it's true until we see the trait page for it.

Whoever decided +1" of movement was an acceptable legion trait come out here, I just wanna talk.

 

Your marines having a base movement speed of 8" - which is 40k Eldar speed btw) - doesnt seem as bad as you might think.

Perhaps. I missed that marines were M7 in general now, which is nice. My issue is that it give diminishing returns to the already fast units that Scars players like to use, a jetbike or landspeeder that is already moving anywhere between 12"-20" a turn doesn't care so much about one extra inch. Whereas slow units will be jumping for joy over going an inch further than usual.

[Darkwrath121]

One interesting detail I've noticed is that Sanguinius's wings say that when he uses them he "gains any other benefits of a movement of 14" (including the bonus to charge distances)".

 

So movement speed affects charging now? Very, very interesting.

[Spagunk]

 

I think any possibility of me revisiting HH has been dashed as blood angels seem worse and I bet sanguinius remains pretty poor too

Remains poor...?

 

Sanguinius was an excellent primarch. He added synergy to jump units, unlocked FOC stuff and was able to fight an enormous amount of stuff. Mathematically he would break and sweep any marine unit he charged (that obviously doesn't have fearless or stubborn). I think he could clear out a 10 man brick of cataphractii for 2 wounds total? That's on top of him instant deathing every daemon, custodes, and mechanicum unit that tried to tarpit him with wounds.

 

As I said, excellent.

 

I do think the new day of revelation is terrible. The text is blurry, but it seems like your reserves come in starting on turn 2, compared to the previous 1. The deepstrike marker is cute, but really, a Damocles basically recreates both parts of the new benefit. Oh and no more bonus initiative on the charge, or cover on the deepstrike?

 

Sanguinius lost almost all of them this time around and are replaced with different stuff: +1 WS on turn a unit arrives from Deep Strike Assault, one additional reaction, 1+ wound to your assault score (I.E. when you determine who won an assault) if within 6" of sanguinius. That's all he gives. So not a lot of synergy anymore.

 

As an additional FYI, Crimson pallies aren't much different except they can now be up to 10 marines. Everything else is basically the same but run a bit differently since the special rules are all slightly different in how they function. They still have the bulky rule which means that you still need double the number of bodies to trigger the better FNP save.

 

Oh, and Perdition weapons (Yes, multiple types) are less powerful but more plentiful.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Spagunk

[The Scorpion]

 

The Unbroken Vow:

- Tartaros Terminators, Cataphractii Terminators, and Veterans become Troops and gain Heart of the Legion (FNP6+ within 6" of an objective or +1 to existing FNP)

- +1 attack for Deathwing ICs within unknown distance of an objective

- After deployment, place an objective at the center of the battlefield or as close as possible; at the end of the battle, the opponent gains +1VP if you don't control it, or +d3 VP if they do

- All Cataphractii, Tartaros, or Veterans must be Deathwing

- WL must be Deathwing or the Lion

 

 

• "After deployment, place an objective at the center of the battlefield or as close as possible"

WHY?? WHY IS THIS STILL A THING????

 

• "at the end of the battle, the opponent gains +1VP if you don't control it, or +d3 VP if they do"

At least it's not an auto-lose anymore, I guess.

 

I'm done for today. If I look at more Dark Angel stuff, my own salt will kill me. I just hope that most people do like the rules, because I'm afraid this is what the First is going to get.

[Spagunk]

One interesting detail I've noticed is that Sanguinius's wings say that when he uses them he "gains any other benefits of a movement of 14" (including the bonus to charge distances)".

 

So movement speed affects charging now? Very, very interesting.

Yes, they change quite a bit. You get charge bonuses based on speed and there is a table that tells you what bonus you get to your charge.

 

13+ movement characteristic gets you a +3 to your charge distance modifier so he effectively gets +3 to his charge roll.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Spagunk

[SkimaskMohawk]

You can totally run a Damocles in every game you want to?

 

My blood angel opponent has certainly taken it and day of revelations in every game we've played lol.

[Spagunk]

You can totally run a Damocles in every game you want to?

 

My blood angel opponent has certainly taken it and day of revelations in every game we've played lol.

Heh, I play almost exclusively ZM so never got to use that.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Many of the Dark Angels RoW are a significant improvement. The Deathwing one used to be a complete auto lose. It's still not great at least at face value, but at least can function. The Stormwing one looks to have removed that completely jank unit composition system, the Dreadwing one looks to allow jump packs now I think.

[Noserenda]

Hmmm i dunno, i think id prefer DA wings to be rites of war rather than unit bonuses, mostly because im pretty sure several units will have a no brainer option for wing to the extent that said, all assault squads are ironwing (deliberately wrong choice for example :D ) unless you are fielding a RoW which always kinda sucks.