State of the Union (Heresy)

[DesuVult]

Something I have only seen brought up sparsely.  Fear is terrifying now.  Curze can snipe out a sergeant and if the unit takes a morale test will fail over 80% of the time because he tanks them to ld4.

[D3L]

What have we heard about Garro, Rubio, and the Knight Errants you can design yourself?

ahem, what do _you_ think :D

[spessmarine]

Something I have only seen brought up sparsely.  Fear is terrifying now.  Curze can snipe out a sergeant and if the unit takes a morale test will fail over 80% of the time because he tanks them to ld4.

And They Shall Know No Fear

[Fallen11]

 

Speeders move like infantry i think, so thats their top speed at full effectiveness, but vehicles cant fire weapons when they move their full amount like 7th. Thats the big surprise for me, Land speeders are treated exactly like bikes/jetbikes.

It's more like dissonance of calling something a speeder when it's top speed is 20" while the Sabre can book it 36". Like I guess flying really isn't faster than driving lol.

 

And javelins are stuck at 14.

 

Oh and they never get cover. Guess they get all the downsides of flying without the real upsides.

 

 

Well, one benefit speeders and javelins get is they are basically immune to being one shot by AV weapons, your spartan for example can die to a single shot. So there is that...

with boost to haywire and multi melta those speeders just got deadlier and more survivable at the same time.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

So if I've understood this correctly, Gorgon Terminator armoured Cataphractii Praetors are able to make a Sweeping Advance? Even though technically it's a Cataphractii model, it gets its rules from the Gorgon Terminator section which doesn't have the penalty for Sweeping Advance.

If that's the case, it's a bit odd that Gorgon armour is locked to Cataphractii, unless there's something else I'm not seeing

 

[tinpact]

Assuming how it works is that they keep the base statline and replace the special rules, it might just be a weird and unfortunate side effect of splitting TDA into separate unit entries - since they have to get their movement characteristic from somewhere.

[The Scorpion]

Indeed. It's just a matter of stats and pricing. You pay for the Cataphract, but you make it Gorgon with the upgrade.

 

The Iron Father already has a model which looks Gorgony, despite his cataphractii plate.

[TheFirstKnight]

Was really happy with what I saw, until I realised that both Scars RoW don;t let you take any Heavy Support choices at all (well, fliers only for the Chogorian Brotherhood). Hoping that changes a little, be nice if the Sagyar Mazan could at least take one! Unlikely, mind.

 

Still, at least all infantry get the Karash rule and FNP so can finally have an IC join the Ebon Keshig :-D

[Noserenda]

Yeah Sagyar mazan looked cool until I realised you have to footslog the ebon keshig unless you run a transport low?

[Doctor Perils]

Indeed. It's just a matter of stats and pricing. You pay for the Cataphract, but you make it Gorgon with the upgrade.

 

The Iron Father already has a model which looks Gorgony, despite his cataphractii plate.

Might also be to do with the Heavy sub-type?

[Astartes Consul]

Yeah Sagyar mazan looked cool until I realised you have to footslog the ebon keshig unless you run a transport low?

 

Ebon Keshig's biggest weakness remains, then. 

[sarabando]

Was really happy with what I saw, until I realised that both Scars RoW don;t let you take any Heavy Support choices at all (well, fliers only for the Chogorian Brotherhood). Hoping that changes a little, be nice if the Sagyar Mazan could at least take one! Unlikely, mind.

 

Still, at least all infantry get the Karash rule and FNP so can finally have an IC join the Ebon Keshig :-D

That's dumb they even mentioned how they have artillery companies when the last scars black book came out :(

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Doesn’t mean scars can’t use heavy support, just means that they can’t use it in that rite. Using a legion specific rite isn't the only way to use a given legion.

[dicebod]

Say it ain't so on the loss of assault vehicle off the Dreadclaw...bummer

[SkimaskMohawk]

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc.  That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).   

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles  get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.  

[depthcharge12]

MoS has the vox disrupter wargear that also affects friendly units on deep strike…which is reaaaaally dumb. Especially considering he gives rerolls to reserves.

 

SoH finally have something going for them in Black Reaving, and allows Justaerin to deep strike. But you also have to take a MoS…which makes you disordered on a 1-3 for DS. So it is self sabotaging.

 

“Well Depthcharge, I’m super smart and 400IQ, why don’t you put the MoS in reserve?”

> That defeats the purpose of taking the MoS in the first place to get rerolls on reserve. It is now a tax model with the ability to lend leadership once per game…which is kinda lackluster when you are paying for the reserve help and other wargear.

 

 

I hope the play testers change the Vox Disruptor wargear to not affect friendly models, or do a simple rule change to the Black Reaving RoW to ignore the vox disruptor and call it something cheesy like top of the spear or something.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The pintle is a separate gunner from the main tank gun (as likely is the sponsons), so at least from a verisimilitude perspective that makes total sense.

 

Especially the pintle gun. The main point of ever having those on a tank is small arms fire on things that get close to the vehicle, not to shoot at whatever the main gun is shooting at.

 

You don't take a pintle mounted Browning to shoot at the other side's MBT, you'd mount it coaxial if that was what you wanted to do.

Edited April 4, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[The Scorpion]

Yeah Sagyar mazan looked cool until I realised you have to footslog the ebon keshig unless you run a transport low?

I believe that once again, the Sagyar Mazan gets shafted into Zone Mortalis. There is no Zone Mortalis in the core book so far, but low-point games might still be run under that format out of habit.

 

• It's weird that the Ebon Keshig do not benefit that much from Sagyar Mazan. Yes, they become troops and can be joined by Independent Characters BUT this doesn't really amount to much when every type of infantry get Kharash, Fearless on the charge (Ebon K come with Stubborn), and FnP(5+).
• Basic tacticals benefit more from Sagar Mazan because Heart of the Legion ups their FnP to 4+++, and the RoW doesn't give them benefits that they already paid for to some extent.
• Which brings us to Qin Xa, Master of the Keshig. His rules dance around the Kharash special rule by giving Power Glaives to command squads instead of taking Ebon retinues... exept the rule is a mess. If what you want is to give Qin Xa white armored Keshig in Tartaros armor, why not simply have his special rule remove Kharash to join the termies as in every other legion?

IMHO the problem stems from making the Scars termies Ebon Keshig instead of just the Keshig. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the lore of the Ebon Keshig introduced in "Book 8: Malevolence"?

[Baluc]

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc.  That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).   

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles  get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.  

 

Well to start its 5 shots instead of 4...

 

For 175 they can have a Cognis-Signum and an Augury Scanner. I think they are pretty comparable, and worthwhile. Usually you take heavy weapons to kill things dead, split fire is a compromise to make Vehicles somewhat efficient in the abstraction imo. Also I don't think the distinction is really overall that game breaking, 500 points to shoot a bunch of targets with chip damage and maybe kill one doesn't scream "the best choice" to me, just a way to make squads of preds or sponson mounted tanks worth taking at all.

 

Even in "competitive" HH I don't see this being the go to when you can take 130 points of Skirmish, Cavalry, Scout, twin-linked, meltaguns.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The pintle is a separate gunner from the main tank gun (as likely is the sponsons), so at least from a verisimilitude perspective that makes total sense.

 

Especially the pintle gun. The main point of ever having those on a tank is small arms fire on things that get close to the vehicle, not to shoot at whatever the main gun is shooting at.

 

You don't take a pintle mounted Browning to shoot at the other side's MBT, you'd mount it coaxial if that was what you wanted to do.

 

?

 

I'm not sure what part of my post you're trying to refute. It seems like a generic statement on how it "actually makes sense in real life"; an argument I didn't make. Because it also doesn't make sense for an anti-tank specialist in a unit of veterans to be forced to target infantry with his anti-tank weapon if there's a vehicle in range, or vice-versa. Or landspeeders, where there's clearly a gunner dedicated to gunning, but he has to shoot his weapon at the same target as the driver. No other unit enjoys this ability to split shots just because there's different people operating the weapons, or the weapons are for a specific role. 

 

 

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc.  That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).   

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles  get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.  

 

Well to start its 5 shots instead of 4...

 

For 175 they can have a Cognis-Signum and an Augury Scanner. I think they are pretty comparable, and worthwhile. Usually you take heavy weapons to kill things dead, split fire is a compromise to make Vehicles somewhat efficient in the abstraction imo. Also I don't think the distinction is really overall that game breaking, 500 points to shoot a bunch of targets with chip damage and maybe kill one doesn't scream "the best choice" to me, just a way to make squads of preds or sponson mounted tanks worth taking at all.

 

Even in "competitive" HH I don't see this being the go to when you can take 130 points of Skirmish, Cavalry, Scout, twin-linked, meltaguns.

 

 

Well to start, they can't really move or they lose their shot efficacy. If they don't have complete los they lose the shot instead of being able to do something else with it.

 

Arguments about HSS comparisons aside, why do vehicles units get a compromise when pseudo vehicles don't? Squadrons, talons and all that has always been a trade of target efficiency for increased FOC slot efficiency. 

 

And the outriders take is weird. Yea they can spike down a tank on turn 1. But they only average 2 hullpoints against av 13, and can't kill dreads or speeders. Then you have 3 t4 3+ save wounds to deal with.  I doubt either them or preds are the most competitive option, but vehicles very much benefit from being taken in units now over pseudo-vehicles. 

[ShadowCore67]

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc. That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.

Sponson lascannons aren't defensive weapons, so can't split fire. The only sponson weapons that will be split firing are volkites and heavy bolters. Edited April 4, 2022 by ShadowCore67

[Slips]

Power of the Machine Spirit has changed to basically being split fire, yo.

[depthcharge12]

 

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc. That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.

Sponson lascannons aren't defensive weapons, so can't split fire. The only sponson weapons that will be split firing are volkites and heavy bolters.

Sponson Mounted -

Sponson Mounted weapons are usually mounted in pairs, one on each side of a Vehicle (the Vehicle's profile will note if this is not the case) and fire into the appropriate Sponson Firing Arc (either left or right). If the target of a Vehide's Shooting Attack is within

the Firing Are for only one of a pair of Sponson weapons, then the out of arc weapon may be fred at another enemy unit of the controlling players choice. This Secondary Target must be in the weapon's line of sight and Firing Arc, but may be from a different unit than the original target.

 

 

Edit: copying straight from the leaked rules, had to fix some poor copy paste grammar

Edited April 4, 2022 by depthcharge12

[ShadowCore67]

 

 

The fire raptor can now fire all of its weapons at a target in its front arc. That's a lot of shots, and offsets the deserved increase in points it got.

 

On the subject of sponsons, if you're out of arc with one now, it can split fire to something in its arc. Defensive weapons can always split fire at the closest infantry unit within los and arc; pintle mounted weapons are always defensive, regardless of the usual factors like strength. So a predator can now possibly shoot at 3 different targets (Left Sponson and Turret at 1st, Right Sponson at 2nd, Pintle at 3rd).

 

But there's more! Each vehicle in a squadron can have their out-of-arc sponsons shoot at separate targets. So a full pred squadron could be shooting at as many as 11 different targets.

 

This is even more 8th design philosophy showing up, and it's more smoothing down intricacies to appeal to the dissatisfied 9th crowd. Can't have it too different, or it might not catch on properly! Who cares if it's going to inflate game time.

 

Salt about design decisions aside, how does this make sense in conjunction with non-vehicles? Arc is line of sight; why do vehicles get to split fire off when they can't draw line of sight with all their firepower, but other units not? If I have a talon of dreads and one of them is blocked from the target, it doesn't get to choose a new target. Or a unit of speeders. Or bikes. Or infantry. How does 5 lascannon HSS for 150 stack up to 4 lascannon pred for 160? Its far more durable, it can move and shoot, and it can split fire if it's not in the most optimal angle. Both unit's firepower can get cut as it takes damage; both can be removed in one shooting round ; both can be suppressed from hitting accurately. But one is much obviously better than the other.

Sponson lascannons aren't defensive weapons, so can't split fire. The only sponson weapons that will be split firing are volkites and heavy bolters.

Sponson Mounted - Sponson Mounted - Sponson Mounted

weapons are usually mounted in paris, one on each side of a

Vehicle (the Vehicle's profile will note if this is not the case)

and fire into the appropriate Sponson Firing Arc (either left

orright). If the target of a Vehide's Shooting Attack is within

the Firing Are for only one of a pair of Sponson weapons,

then the out of arc weapon may be fred at another enemy

unit of the controlling players choice. This Secondary Target

must be in the weapon's line of sight and Firing Arc, but may

be from a different unit than the original target.

 

 

Edit: copying straight from the leaked rules

Oh damn missed that. I was focused on the defensive weapon rules lol.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

Sponson lascannons aren't defensive weapons, so can't split fire. The only sponson weapons that will be split firing are volkites and heavy bolters.

Sponson Mounted - Sponson Mounted - Sponson Mounted

weapons are usually mounted in paris, one on each side of a

Vehicle (the Vehicle's profile will note if this is not the case)

and fire into the appropriate Sponson Firing Arc (either left

orright). If the target of a Vehide's Shooting Attack is within

the Firing Are for only one of a pair of Sponson weapons,

then the out of arc weapon may be fred at another enemy

unit of the controlling players choice. This Secondary Target

must be in the weapon's line of sight and Firing Arc, but may

be from a different unit than the original target.

 

 

Edit: copying straight from the leaked rules

Oh damn missed that. I was focused on the defensive weapon rules lol.

No problem! :) plenty of new rule nuisances/nuances to pour over and get right. I’ve missed plenty already.

 

 

@Slips @Skimask

Can I get some vindication here on the Master of Signal wargear? Lol

 

That vox scrambler thing actively hurts your own deep strikers when the MoS buffs reserve rolls. It makes no sense. I wish they could add a clause to allow you to disable it a la helical array.

Edited April 4, 2022 by depthcharge12