State of the Union (Heresy)

[Excessus]

I wish they could add a clause to allow you to disable it a la helical array.

 

Well, the rules aren't final anyway yet so there's a good chance of that.

[BrokenRecord]

Its far more durable  

Surely, you jest!? A single Predator is going to pop like a grape in a world of Sundering Las Cannons!

[Noserenda]

Yeah forcing units to all fire at the same thing has been dumb for years. At least they added gamey exceptions to stop gunners just nodding off, I'm sure all the weirdly angled land raiders will be worth it :D

[JDizzle]

 

Its far more durable  

Surely, you jest!? A single Predator is going to pop like a grape in a world of Sundering Las Cannons!

 

Ah, but now you can take 15 predators and arm them all with sundering lascannons of their own!

[Ripper.McGuirl]

For my first heresy event in 2014 I painted a double las contemptor and then immediately hated it and replaced it with kheres. Looks like I may actually use those arms again. Edited April 4, 2022 by Ripper.McGuirl

[Brofist]

 

Yeah Sagyar mazan looked cool until I realised you have to footslog the ebon keshig unless you run a transport low?

I believe that once again, the Sagyar Mazan gets shafted into Zone Mortalis. There is no Zone Mortalis in the core book so far, but low-point games might still be run under that format out of habit.

• It's weird that the Ebon Keshig do not benefit that much from Sagyar Mazan. Yes, they become troops and can be joined by Independent Characters BUT this doesn't really amount to much when every type of infantry get Kharash, Fearless on the charge (Ebon K come with Stubborn), and FnP(5+).
• Basic tacticals benefit more from Sagar Mazan because Heart of the Legion ups their FnP to 4+++, and the RoW doesn't give them benefits that they already paid for to some extent.
• Which brings us to Qin Xa, Master of the Keshig. His rules dance around the Kharash special rule by giving Power Glaives to command squads instead of taking Ebon retinues... exept the rule is a mess. If what you want is to give Qin Xa white armored Keshig in Tartaros armor, why not simply have his special rule remove Kharash to join the termies as in every other legion?

IMHO the problem stems from making the Scars termies Ebon Keshig instead of just the Keshig. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the lore of the Ebon Keshig introduced in "Book 8: Malevolence"?

 

For what its worth, Sagyar Mazan seems extremely good for ZM

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

The pintle is a separate gunner from the main tank gun (as likely is the sponsons), so at least from a verisimilitude perspective that makes total sense.

 

Especially the pintle gun. The main point of ever having those on a tank is small arms fire on things that get close to the vehicle, not to shoot at whatever the main gun is shooting at.

 

You don't take a pintle mounted Browning to shoot at the other side's MBT, you'd mount it coaxial if that was what you wanted to do.

 

?

 

I'm not sure what part of my post you're trying to refute. It seems like a generic statement on how it "actually makes sense in real life"; an argument I didn't make. Because it also doesn't make sense for an anti-tank specialist in a unit of veterans to be forced to target infantry with his anti-tank weapon if there's a vehicle in range, or vice-versa. Or landspeeders, where there's clearly a gunner dedicated to gunning, but he has to shoot his weapon at the same target as the driver. No other unit enjoys this ability to split shots just because there's different people operating the weapons, or the weapons are for a specific role. 

 

The only part I was refuting was that it was the 'smoothing down intricacies' part, whereas this in my observation clearly adding intricacy. It's an added detail for a pintle/defensive weapon to operate as it is actually designed to, in the context of a tank.

[Noserenda]

Pintle weapons were designed for air defence mostly though, bit risky to poke your head and torso out under direct infantry attack. Though marines at least have power armour! :D

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's also risky to poke your head out when CAS is coming at you, so don't think you're ever safe in the open :D

[Slips]

 

@Slips @Skimask

Can I get some vindication here on the Master of Signal wargear? Lol

 

That vox scrambler thing actively hurts your own deep strikers when the MoS buffs reserve rolls. It makes no sense. I wish they could add a clause to allow you to disable it a la helical array.

 

No, you're right, RAW thats how that works. You'd think it would have a line in to allow the player to turn it on/off but no.

[depthcharge12]

Does anyone know if dreads count as vehicles now? I’m curious if breaching/plasma kicks off on them now since there is a lack of AP2.

 

Edit: dreads don’t explicitly call out being classified as a vehicle or infantry. So that means plasma just bounces off it, go figure :O

Edited April 4, 2022 by depthcharge12

[Spagunk]

I would argue that the vox scrambler is a blanket ECM/ECCM system that floods radio chatter or more appropriately introduces Scrap code on bands that other imperial equipment could have been hacking into.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Spagunk

[Ripper.McGuirl]

Does anyone know if dreads count as vehicles now? I’m curious if breaching/plasma kicks off on them now since there is a lack of AP2.

 

Edit: dreads don’t explicitly call out being classified as a vehicle or infantry. So that means plasma just bounces off it, go figure :O

Guess that makes Plasma Anti-Infantry, and Melta Anti-Tank/walker. A bunch of S7 plasma shots will still put some burny holes on light vehicles and what not, though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

The pintle is a separate gunner from the main tank gun (as likely is the sponsons), so at least from a verisimilitude perspective that makes total sense.

 

Especially the pintle gun. The main point of ever having those on a tank is small arms fire on things that get close to the vehicle, not to shoot at whatever the main gun is shooting at.

 

You don't take a pintle mounted Browning to shoot at the other side's MBT, you'd mount it coaxial if that was what you wanted to do.

 

?

 

I'm not sure what part of my post you're trying to refute. It seems like a generic statement on how it "actually makes sense in real life"; an argument I didn't make. Because it also doesn't make sense for an anti-tank specialist in a unit of veterans to be forced to target infantry with his anti-tank weapon if there's a vehicle in range, or vice-versa. Or landspeeders, where there's clearly a gunner dedicated to gunning, but he has to shoot his weapon at the same target as the driver. No other unit enjoys this ability to split shots just because there's different people operating the weapons, or the weapons are for a specific role. 

 

The only part I was refuting was that it was the 'smoothing down intricacies' part, whereas this in my observation clearly adding intricacy. It's an added detail for a pintle/defensive weapon to operate as it is actually designed to, in the context of a tank.

 

 

But not in the context of anything else eh? 

 

The removal of closest-to-furthest wound allocation and making vehicles split-fire machines with super generous arcs removes the depth of tactical decision making from the game and "smoothes it out".

 

Can I outflank the enemy squad to dodge  the artificer armour and gun down the squishies? Gone; tanking is always in play.

Do I give up a shot on my sponson so my tank retains its cover? Doesn't matter; sponson can still shoot other places.

Do I commit to killing the scoring unit of their objective at the cost of the antitank fire being wasted? I can do both with vehicles now.

 

Does anyone know if dreads count as vehicles now? I’m curious if breaching/plasma kicks off on them now since there is a lack of AP2.

 

Edit: dreads don’t explicitly call out being classified as a vehicle or infantry. So that means plasma just bounces off it, go figure

 

Dreads count as dreads. Plasma wounds on 4s; breaching procs on 4s. It certainly doesn't bounce off. You needed an average of 40 plasma shots to glance a contemptor to death from the front, now you need an average of 28 shots to kill. It's better against contemptors now lol.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Does anyone know if dreads count as vehicles now? I’m curious if breaching/plasma kicks off on them now since there is a lack of AP2.

 

Edit: dreads don’t explicitly call out being classified as a vehicle or infantry. So that means plasma just bounces off it, go figure

Dreads count as dreads. Plasma wounds on 4s; breaching procs on 4s. It certainly doesn't bounce off. You needed an average of 40 plasma shots to glance a contemptor to death from the front, now you need an average of 28 shots to kill. It's better against contemptors now lol.

The math is right lol. I’ll let you be the judge if you want to put 28 plasma into the dread though :P

 

My angle was, if breaching triggers on contemptors, it might be a good way to take them out with S7 AP2 (on 4+s of course). They’ll still get their armor save this way.

[Noserenda]

I think Melta is going to be the special weapon of choice this edition tbh, even on infantry who will likely be rocking a 4+FNP on objectives and frequently 2 wounds, that AP1 instant death is going to be clutch i suspect.

[sarabando]

no mention of ZM right ?

[Slips]

Not currently no; probably was not in the scope of the playtest. But, then again, you probably don't need to change much, if anything, to keep playing.

[Noserenda]

The joy of a lot of system mods or scenarios is they are kinda immune to edition changes. Ive not played it in a couple of years thanks to Covid but from memory you can just play Zm in the new rules as written.

[Lord Marshal]

I'm very happy Surge Moves are now a thing (if you fail a charge you move half of your roll anyway). I always thought one of the silliest things about Charges was that if you failed one, you just didn't shift an inch and now there is some actual risk to trying to make that 12".

Edited April 4, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Astartes Consul]

Anyway else think that ZM would make a perfect early expansion and would also obviously be the right time to bring back…Boxnaughts!

[Slips]

We basically already have ZM terrain out there via necromunda and kill-team to some extent.

[Gorgoff]

Terrain is a good topic. How does cover work? Haven't read anything about that yet.

[Lord Marshal]

Terrain is a good topic. How does cover work? Haven't read anything about that yet.

 

Aegis Defence Lines lost it's additional options (Ammo dump, etc). Defence Lines, Barricades and Walls are 5+ saves now.

 

Those are the most immediate changes I've seen.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Terrain is a good topic. How does cover work? Haven't read anything about that yet.

 

The mechanics work the same, but the values have been dropped. Ruins are 5+, other terrain is 6+,  intervening models is 6+, vehicle obscurement is 6+; 5+ if the facing isn't visible.

 

Terrain can be melted through like in 7th instead of being impassable to most unit types like 9th. You can drive a spartan on top of a ruin, or a sabre across the entire table in a straight line.