State of the Union (Heresy)

[Excessus]

 

Generally ap2 at initiative has gone down drastically over the board...except for Ultramarines for some reason.

We all know the reason

 

...so that Alpha Legion has something awesome to steal? :P

[Astartes Consul]

 

Generally ap2 at initiative has gone down drastically over the board...except for Ultramarines for some reason.

We all know the reason

To make up for having 2/3 of our special units removed & a pretty lacklustre RoW?

[bushman101]

 

 

Generally ap2 at initiative has gone down drastically over the board...except for Ultramarines for some reason.

We all know the reason

To make up for having 2/3 of our special units removed & a pretty lacklustre RoW?

I didn't think Logos Lectora was bad.

It's actually pretty good as a 'starter box RoW'.

[OttoVonAwesome]

I'm surprised they kept the Legatine Axes at ap2 I think earlier playtests had them more in line with alot of weapons. I know why they brought them back to Ap2 though, When you look at some of the dedicated close combat units like Rampagers, Suzerains just aren't that mean. Solid stats yes, good toughness yes, but these other guys are sporting extra attacks rerolls rending on 4's and 5's. Suzerain's got taken down a peg simply cuase everything else got better take away that ap2 and they'd be nothing special at all.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The legatine axes is a fine weapon, but is literally worse than it was in 1st, in a game that just gave all the elite units an extra wound, dropping it's value further.

 

Even with suzerains pumping out 5 attacks on the charge, they average 2 dead terminators and still lose a model in return. That's...not very good. Against artificer armour targets you do average more damage, but it's still an average of 3 models. Terminators just do more against both.

 

It's why they're relatively cheap for something that looks so solid; they just get outperformed and have a low array of targets.

[Cyrox]

Word Bearers painting video up:

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Wow, it legitimately reminds me of a blood Ravens scheme I did when I was 13. Red gore over a mechrite red basecoat, highlighted with blood red. The colour progression wasn't right then, and still isn't right now. I'm not sure why they didn't use either gal vorbak or word bearers red, as both are excellent paints. It can't be because they're wonky to highlight without mixing, because she had the same problem with khorne red into wazdakka. Maybe galvorbak with khorne and mephiston red highlights if your obsessed with the double edge.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Gal Vorbak is probably my favorite red paint out of their range, really quite good. That's the base I use for my Word Bearers, very nice scheme.

 

My guess is they wanted it to still look similar to the 40k one for some reason.

[Brother Kraskor]

Question about the PDFs Forge World were doing with free rules for certain units (Exemplary Battles). Have any of those made it into the final copy (as leaked), or are they gently being squatted? 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[Noserenda]

Question about the PDFs Forge World were doing with free rules for certain units (Exemplary Battles). Have any of those made it into the final copy (as leaked), or are they gently being squatted? 

Those are confirmed to be in another pdf for 2nd ed

[SkimaskMohawk]

Question about the PDFs Forge World were doing with free rules for certain units (Exemplary Battles). Have any of those made it into the final copy (as leaked), or are they gently being squatted?

Has the explicitly seperate-from-the-liber pdfs been incorporated into the final copy of the liber? No.

 

This is from page 4 of the liber. They're not getting squatted, gently or otherwise:

 

‘Core’ and ‘Expanded’ Army List Profiles

 

All Army List Profiles for the Warhammer: Age of Darkness range are divided into two categories: Core units and Expanded units. All of the units in this book are ‘Core’ units. These represent the mainstay of the Legiones Astartes and are supported by a wide range of miniatures. Expanded units will have rules for their use provided in supplementary PDF downloads available from the Games Workshop website, White Dwarf magazine or other places. Both types of unit may be freely used in any Horus Heresy battle, and this category does not affect their availability as part of an army or Detachment or the rules for their use during a battle. As new units and models are released, their Army List Profiles will clearly state if those units are Core or Expanded units, and future publications may shift the category of a given unit, with any such changes clearly noted in the unit’s Army List Profile.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

And, again, the last Exemplary Battle pdf they released specifically stated they were all designed for 2.0 and will all be updated after it’s released.

[Astartes Consul]

 

 

 

Generally ap2 at initiative has gone down drastically over the board...except for Ultramarines for some reason.

We all know the reason

To make up for having 2/3 of our special units removed & a pretty lacklustre RoW?

I didn't think Logos Lectora was bad.

It's actually pretty good as a 'starter box RoW'.

 

 

This is true - it forces you to collect a good chunk of troops, an extra character and plays into the general vibe of Heresy in that regard.

 

It just is a bit meh compared to most other - more specialised - Legion specific RoW and the blanket ban on Deep Strike, Infiltraite & Outflank is too limiting compared to the advantages of the RoW. 

 

 

The legatine axes is a fine weapon, but is literally worse than it was in 1st, in a game that just gave all the elite units an extra wound, dropping it's value further.

 

Even with suzerains pumping out 5 attacks on the charge, they average 2 dead terminators and still lose a model in return. That's...not very good. Against artificer armour targets you do average more damage, but it's still an average of 3 models. Terminators just do more against both.

 

It's why they're relatively cheap for something that looks so solid; they just get outperformed and have a low array of targets.

 

Also they're still IC and special units only, right? Can't stick them on a normal 'Character' Sergeant? 

[MrZakalwe]

I'm surprised they kept the Legatine Axes at ap2 I think earlier playtests had them more in line with alot of weapons. I know why they brought them back to Ap2 though, When you look at some of the dedicated close combat units like Rampagers, Suzerains just aren't that mean. Solid stats yes, good toughness yes, but these other guys are sporting extra attacks rerolls rending on 4's and 5's. Suzerain's got taken down a peg simply cuase everything else got better take away that ap2 and they'd be nothing special at all.

 

Please don't read this in an aggro tone, I just genuinely think I'm missing something.

 

At a glance Suzerains have a mental CC stat line at 30 points. Cost for cost they will chew through pretty much anything you care to throw them, bounce the huge amount of AP3 melee floating around now, and can ride a Rhino (unlike stuff with a similar melee defensive profile to them - Cataphractii).

 

Rampagers just aren't on the same level, they look decent but Suzerains? Blow everybody else's elites out of the water at 30 points. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

@astartes consul correct. The only areas to really see them in use are suzerains and the other breacher unit. And their one attack base and shield restriction makes the axes rather trivial there.

 

@mrzakalwe you're kind of falling into the trap of looking at stuff without their common synergies. It's really endemic to 2nd, where people are still grasping the new rules and are getting snippets of other legions stuff and making assumptions. And also no real analysis.

 

Suzerains with axes are solid, but they have a narrow use; fighting t4 2+ armour. Against a ws 4, 2+ target, suzerains average 8.25 wounds. 5 Rampagers with falax average 9.54. And they're 40 points cheaper. And they have direct synergy with their rites; crimson path allows them to discard the first wound taken per phase, so if both suzerains and rampagers fought fist terminators, then the Suzy's lose a model and the rampagers don't.

 

Suzerains are certainly not blowing anything out of the water with legatine axes.

[MrZakalwe]

@SkimaskMohawk less ignoring synergies and more thinking of real game scenarios I'm likely to encounter in 2.0; with quite how good things like Dawnbreakers are now (madness, basically) and the addition of rending on initiative striking AP3 weapons (to make them more attractive), I would wager that fists aren't going to be as universal as they were in 1.0.

 

Line and Heavy subtypes, a 2+/4++ defensive profile, and eternal 4 attacks at AP 2 at 32.5 points per model? Built to thrive in the 2.0 environment. At that cost they math well vs pretty much anything that isn't a Primarch/robot/Contemptor even when charged. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by MrZakalwe

[Slips]

@SkimaskMohawk less ignoring synergies and more thinking of real game scenarios I'm likely to encounter in 2.0; with quite how good things like Dawnbreakers are now (madness, basically) and the addition of rending on initiative striking AP3 weapons (to make them more attractive), I would wager that fists aren't going to be as universal as they were in 1.0.

 

Line and Heavy subtypes, a 2+/4++ defensive profile, and eternal 4 attacks at AP 2 at 32.5 points per model? Built to thrive in the 2.0 environment. At that cost they math well vs pretty much anything even when charged. 

You'll definitely still see power fists because they just need to cause 1W to kill a T4 2+W model due to double toughness ID. Legatine Axes don't have that. 

 

A Powerfist being S8 Ap2 means its wounding marines on a 2+ and killing them in 1 hit regardless of wound count unless they have eternal warrior or something to reduce the strength of the attack below 8.

 

A Legatine Axe is S: User so, in general, 4. Meaning it wounds marines T4 on 4s+. You're faster but also less consistent when it comes to translating those hits into wounds. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Slips

[Excessus]

fortunately, suzys can take thunderhammers :)

[infyrana]

fortunately, suzys can take thunderhammers :)

Indeed, but it us a shame that just 10 of these, before the cost of hammers, will set you back a whopping amount of money.

 

I'm hoping people will accept my conversion idea with appropriate fluff reasons :)

Edited May 30, 2022 by infyrana

[SkimaskMohawk]

@SkimaskMohawk less ignoring synergies and more thinking of real game scenarios I'm likely to encounter in 2.0; with quite how good things like Dawnbreakers are now (madness, basically) and the addition of rending on initiative striking AP3 weapons (to make them more attractive), I would wager that fists aren't going to be as universal as they were in 1.0.

 

Line and Heavy subtypes, a 2+/4++ defensive profile, and eternal 4 attacks at AP 2 at 32.5 points per model? Built to thrive in the 2.0 environment. At that cost they math well vs pretty much anything that isn't a Primarch/robot/Contemptor even when charged.

Ya slips covered it well already, but you're absolutely going to see fists more in 2nd than in 1st, where the chainfist was already the best weapon in the game. It's the solution to all the 2 wound stuff, and putting it on a 2 wound, 4++ invul chassis just makes it able to tank a lot of those higher initiative hits. Especially since terminators can universally be made to score still, while many legion special units can't.

 

You're definitely over-valuing the 5+ rend ap3/ap2 at initiative weapons across the board. As I said earlier, charging suzerains with axes kill an average of 2 terminators, and lose 1 model in return. Charging dawnbreakers with swords kill an average of 1.5 terminators and lose 2 model in return.

 

Charging suzerains with hammers kill 5.5 terminators and lose 1.5 in return. And can now fight other targets. They'd kill all 5 of those maddeningly good, charging, dawnbreakers after losing 1.5 with hammers instead of...2 with axes. The math is so much better on the hammers it's a little silly to claim that axes "math well" and are "built to thrive" in comparison. The hammer suzerain is, and it's basically a +1ws, +1 attack terminator.

 

Either bring huge volume of high rending attacks (like falax rampagers), or bring STR 8 ap2.

[Brother Kraskor]

Those are confirmed to be in another pdf for 2nd ed

 

 

Has the explicitly seperate-from-the-liber pdfs been incorporated into the final copy of the liber? No.

 

This is from page 4 of the liber. They're not getting squatted, gently or otherwise:

 

‘Core’ and ‘Expanded’ Army List Profiles

 

All Army List Profiles for the Warhammer: Age of Darkness range are divided into two categories: Core units and Expanded units. All of the units in this book are ‘Core’ units. These represent the mainstay of the Legiones Astartes and are supported by a wide range of miniatures. Expanded units will have rules for their use provided in supplementary PDF downloads available from the Games Workshop website, White Dwarf magazine or other places. Both types of unit may be freely used in any Horus Heresy battle, and this category does not affect their availability as part of an army or Detachment or the rules for their use during a battle. As new units and models are released, their Army List Profiles will clearly state if those units are Core or Expanded units, and future publications may shift the category of a given unit, with any such changes clearly noted in the unit’s Army List Profile.

 

And, again, the last Exemplary Battle pdf they released specifically stated they were all designed for 2.0 and will all be updated after it’s released.

 

Thanks all, appreciate the steer. 

[JDizzle]

Suzerains with axes are solid, but they have a narrow use; fighting t4 2+ armour. Against a ws 4, 2+ target, suzerains average 8.25 wounds. 5 Rampagers with falax average 9.54. And they're 40 points cheaper. And they have direct synergy with their rites; crimson path allows them to discard the first wound taken per phase, so if both suzerains and rampagers fought fist terminators, then the Suzy's lose a model and the rampagers don't.

 

Suzerains are certainly not blowing anything out of the water with legatine axes.

Worth noting that although Rampagers may have a better damage output for a lower points cost, the Suzerains have much better staying power with both a 2+ armour save and a 4+/5+ invulnerable save with those snazzy shields. Not saying they're the best unit in the game now, but those extra points do go somewhere. I guess it just emphasises that terminators are the fairer comparison.

[infyrana]

Do we know more about what the Destroyer squads are all about - since they are now split into two types?

[Slips]

Do we know more about what the Destroyer squads are all about - since they are now split into two types?

The foot destroyers have access to Disintegrators; the Jump Pack ones may not. Haven't really noticed any other difference but I just glanced at their P3 sheets so we'll see on full release.

[dicebod]

 

Do we know more about what the Destroyer squads are all about - since they are now split into two types?

The foot destroyers have access to Disintegrators; the Jump Pack ones may not. Haven't really noticed any other difference but I just glanced at their P3 sheets so we'll see on full release.

 

Jump pack guys can take a power weapon every 1 in 5 I believe