Codex Incoming!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Updated, but if you care about Legends Battlescribe is showing some legends options for the Canoness as 0 points. Haven't looked too deeply at other units.

Lol of the day.

[Atrus]

Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

 

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.

The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

 

Happy to take a 20 girls bss. Haven't done that since witch hunters days and was fun to do again. Took it as a melta spam squad but in future I think I'll put in flamers in stead of meltaguns for the special weapons to benefit from the flamer extra range. Several time the meltaguns did nothing due to being out of range.

 

Exorcist nerfs were noticeable. Going to only ap-2 saw so many saves being made by opponent and the drop to T7 was noticeable. T8 used to carry them fine but they were crumbling under T7.

 

Val's rerolls were nice but not game changing for me. She mostly did nothing all game but run up the board trying to find something to do.

 

Celestine feels better now. That 2mw on 6s to hit really helps her damage output along with the native -4ap. Had one round where she got 3x 6s to hit against morty which was plenty enough to finish him off from 4 wounds left.

The heal is very nice and I like the balance of it being an action.

 

Penitent engines being able to advance and charge is so nice. Really helps them get up the table especially with the 8" move now.

Being 2 damage still on the buzz saws is disappointing but hey, going against deathwatch didn't help them.

 

Sisters having extra strength on flamers is amazing. S5 normal flamers was fun times on dominion squad and wounding T5 on 3+ with holy trinity with the auto Max flamer strat was expensive but satisfying especially with divine guidance.

I have a sneaking suspicion that flamer strength will be going up across all armies, but we shall see and I shall enjoy feeling special while it lasts.

 

Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)

[ThePenitentOne]

Thanks for the tip about the gunslinger Canoness- I'll take a look at that Legends entry. I always wanted a Gunslinger HQ- if I'm not mistaken, the Palatine Datasheet from Piety and Pain allowed two guns.

[taikishi]

The Piety and Pain datasheet was corrected in the Codex; Rosarius is standard equipment and you pay to replace the bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.

[Blurf]

NukeMata: For use with Rapturous Blows/Mantle/Righteous Rage Canoness (no Morvenn allowed).

 

Bloody Rose+Blazing Ire+Fiery Orator+Psalm of Righteous Smiting+Chaplet of Sacrifice. Leaves her with 6 S6 AP-3 D2 attacks with rerolls to hit and advance and charge, guaranteed to fight twice as long as there's a target to swing at, either through death or Psalm. Chaplet makes Fiery Orator CP neutral. Put her in a transport with some Dominions, scoot her up field, fire and forget.

 

Unkillable Canoness:

 

Valorous Heart, Impervious to Pain, Mantle of Ophelia, The Emperor's Grace. Mantle reduces all damage to 1, Impervious heals whenever you guarantee a save and guarantees 33% of attacks will bounce off, emperors grace shuts off auras and heals even more, divine Intervention makes it even less likely she'll die. Requires 32 Heavy Flamer  or 31 S6 AP-3 D1 shots hitting on 3+ (i.e. perfect canoness killing weapons) to die. Wins just about every character duel in the game against non-mortal wounding characters. It takes like 15 turns but she does it. Ragnar, for example, literally can't kill her faster than she can heal on average dice, even with space wolves assault doctrine.

[GenerationTerrorist]

Had a game against the new Codex today with my Custodes.

I ran a Dread Host Vanguard - Trajan, Terminator Shield Captain (+2 Wounds, 5+FNP and a 3++ relic), 3 Sword Custodes, 2 MM Contemptors, 2*6 Allarus, Vexilla.

 

My opponent ran something like Morven, Celestine, Cannoness, 3*10 Sisters, 9 Sacresants in a Rhino (with Cannones), 2*3 Melta/Mace Paragons, 2*5 Melta Retributors in Flame Tanks.

 

It was a very close game. Trajan killed Morven in a heroic single combat that lasted 3 turns. The Paragons and one unit of my Allarus also tied each other up. MVP unit for the Sisters was the blob of Sacresants and Cannonness buffing them. They were an absolute pain to deal with for my other Allarus unit that used the Moraides stratagem to charge in from Deep Strike. I really must stop taking Contemptors, because they achieved nothing (again!) and got destroyed by the Retributors. Sisters held more objectives throughout the game and won, but it was a fun match.

[taikishi]

This is a list that seems to be doing fairly well right now vs. Drukhari, courtesy (and permission granted to repost) of Ashley Thompson in the Sisters Discord server. Argent Shroud + Ebon Chalice. Penitent Engines and Hand Flamer Seraphim. Vahl, Celestine, and Stern.

 

Wanted to share this both to get people's thoughts on the list and to stir up further discussion on the book and things we may not have considered.

[ThePenitentOne]

Wow- that's a whole lot of special character power.

 

With all 3 of those units, it wouldn't surprise me if it did well vs everything, really. Not sure I could bring myself to field all 3 in the same list- not to knock anyone else.

[taikishi]

Actually, most of its punch is dishing out mortals between Celestine, Stern, the Dogmata, and Cleansing Flames + Divine Guidance on the Seraphim, as well as lots of heavy flamer shots from 6 Penitent Engines and their ability to advance and charge + consolidate or pile in up to 5". Combine this with cheap action monkeys in DCA and Crusaders, Seraphim and Celestine mobility, the Dogmata giving a large-ish Sacrestant unit (that runs around with Hand and the Passion) Ob sec, Argent Shroud re-rolls, and every Sisters unit in the army getting +1 to advance and charge rolls...

[Beams]

I really don't like mixing Orders -- its very "gamey" to me? Like, I get some orders are better at certain things than others and some units are better with certain orders, but like, that's kind of the point? There should be trade offs.

[taikishi]

Then don't, but realize that competitive players like myself are going to mix orders if it gives us a better army. Hell, I'm at the point of actually eschewing Miracle Dice and possibly splashing in Guard -- especially Gaunt's Ghosts. As long as you don't give people who think like I do grief for order mixing, etc., I don't see a problem. You play your way, I play mine and as long as we're being respectful to each other it's all good! :D

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea it's important to note that when talking about running against drukhari it's not going to be a list that's super thematic.

 

It's interesting that it's very similar to the list I tried out the other week and is close to what I was going to test next. Still not sure how to deal with some of the admech stuff though.

[sitnam]

I really don't like mixing Orders -- its very "gamey" to me? Like, I get some orders are better at certain things than others and some units are better with certain orders, but like, that's kind of the point? There should be trade offs.

I agree, but as takeishi said it comes down to the type of player you are. I don’t play 40k myself, but given how I play other things I’d be more on the thematic, fluffy, Crusade side of things. I like stuff like Immolators, braziers, and condemnors, which from what I nunderstand those are all poor choices.

[Beams]

 

I really don't like mixing Orders -- its very "gamey" to me? Like, I get some orders are better at certain things than others and some units are better with certain orders, but like, that's kind of the point? There should be trade offs.

I agree, but as takeishi said it comes down to the type of player you are. I don’t play 40k myself, but given how I play other things I’d be more on the thematic, fluffy, Crusade side of things. I like stuff like Immolators, braziers, and condemnors, which from what I nunderstand those are all poor choices.

 

 

I am definitely not looking down on anyone for taking them in a competitive setting. I think it's more of a taste thing -- I wouldn't take it, but like, if it gives you an advantage in a tournament? Go for it! Some of these armies are really strong, and you need everything you can to fight them.

 

I still miss having the option to take a Knight to give me a big heavy hitter without losing a lot of unique army wide abilities. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Beams

[taikishi]

That's part of why I came up with this list last night. I don't think it's super competitive, and I wish I could snag some WL traits and relics but I wanted to do something around the Imperium Keyword.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/370858-2k-imperium-soup/

 

I've got at least three other lists in mind based as well: an AS list similar to this that included Vahl; a motor pool of tanks; and as many walkers as I can snag (Sentinels, Paragons, Penitent Engines, Mortifiers, maybe Dreads if I add Marines...)

[Purifying Tempest]

My play group has actually discussed suspending the loss of army-wide abilities for games exceeding 2000 points.  At that point in the game, that scale of battle, it becomes more and more reasonable to see a mish-mash of armies on the battlefield... as well as opening up Titans a bit more to the game.  But that's just what we're doing to kind of help the loss of army rules when blending forces.  Sub 2000 points, seems more reasonable to have a single-force approach, but after that, seems reasonable to have more forces.

 

Maybe 10th will toy around with the idea of the ally slots like AoS does.  I kinda like the feel and flexibility that it brings to the armies.

 

Edit: Could also be a perk of the Auxiliary Support Detachment: it adds a unit without suspending Army Wide rules.  Toy around with it with your local friends, see how you like the idea, and provide feedback :)  I may pitch that at our table.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Purifying Tempest

[ThePenitentOne]

I really don't like mixing Orders -- its very "gamey" to me? Like, I get some orders are better at certain things than others and some units are better with certain orders, but like, that's kind of the point? There should be trade offs.

 

It can be "Gamey," but it can also be super fluffy. Morvenn Vahl as a Supreme Commander is particularly suited to putting together multi-order task forces- in fact I see this as her primary MO, though I imagine she might call on her old Argent Shroud friends frequently.

 

Also keep in mind that each of the two major Convents are home to three orders each; if a force is deployed directly from Terra or Ophelia VII, a multi-order force, provided it is made up of the three Orders from that particular convent, is almost more fluffy than a mono-Order force (depending on battle size).

 

And finally, you have the Indomitus Crusade itself as a vehicle for bringing multiple orders together. These Crusade fleets are HUGE, and each likely contains multiple Orders.

 

I get where you're coming from; I have head cannon limits too- I'll never field any named characters at less than Strike Force level, and never more than one of them in less than Onslaught, and even then only rarely. Of course, I'm a Crusader, so by the time my armies grow to that size, a good chunk of my force will be Legendary, so I won't need named characters as much as a Matched play army would.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So goonhammer did an article on recent tournament wins and the new book took first at Rage GT. Might be reassuring for anyone who was put out by the overall power level of the book on release.

 

The list was basically argent shroud msu and bloody rose melee with two blessings and Celestine. None of the death cult/crusader action monkeys. Unfortunately doesn't go into secondary objective selection.

[Montford]

Hehehe.

 

I managed to get a Miracle Die in my Command Phase today.

 

Dialogus with Blazing Piety finished off a squad that was down to 2 models.

[Emicus]

So goonhammer did an article on recent tournament wins and the new book took first at Rage GT. Might be reassuring for anyone who was put out by the overall power level of the book on release.

 

The list was basically argent shroud msu and bloody rose melee with two blessings and Celestine. None of the death cult/crusader action monkeys. Unfortunately doesn't go into secondary objective selection.

Two orders make me go: reeee

[Beams]

Celestian Sacresants with Bloody Rose are really, really good?

[taikishi]

Really shouldn't come as a surprise. Able to HI; +1 to-hit, +1A, and -1AP when they HI; 6s to-hit scoring an additional hit with the Passion.

 

5 with maces + Spear of the Faithful kill an average 16 damage (8 kills) to MEQ using only the rules on their datasheet; +/-1 deviation is 12-20 damage. 5 with halberds and a spear average 13 damage (no saves but generally only 1D); +/-1 deviation is 10-16 damage.

 

5 Non-BR Sacresants with maces and a spear only average 8 damage (4 kills), with 6-12 damage being within +/-1 deviation. 5 with halberds and a spear average 7 damage (3.5 kills), with +/-1 deviation being 5-10 damage.

 

Clarification in case anyone is curious about the math: rules on the datasheet include the +1 for heroically intervening, Sacred Rites, and Order Conviction but do not include the use of an Act of Faith.

Edited July 16, 2021 by taikishi

[Blurf]

Really shouldn't come as a surprise. Able to HI; +1 to-hit, +1A, and -1AP when they HI; 6s to-hit scoring an additional hit with the Passion.

 

5 with maces + Spear of the Faithful kill an average 16 damage (8 kills) to MEQ using only the rules on their datasheet; +/-1 deviation is 12-20 damage. 5 with halberds and a spear average 13 damage (no saves but generally only 1D); +/-1 deviation is 10-16 damage.

 

5 Non-BR Sacresants with maces and a spear only average 8 damage (4 kills), with 6-12 damage being within +/-1 deviation. 5 with halberds and a spear average 7 damage (3.5 kills), with +/-1 deviation being 5-10 damage.

 

Clarification in case anyone is curious about the math: rules on the datasheet include the +1 for heroically intervening, Sacred Rites, and Order Conviction but do not include the use of an Act of Faith.

People really underestimate just how big the Bloody Rose bonuses actually are. Assuming you're attacking something that doesn't have an invul to bounce off of, you get an extra 40-60% on average out of Sacresants (depending on weapons), repentia get 80% more damage.

 

If that didn't end up being massive overkill in a lot of cases, there'd be no better way to spend 2CP than a Bloody Rose Patrol.

[Emicus]

Are sacrestants worth it compared to repentia though?

[Bonzi]

Are sacrestants worth it compared to repentia though?

Different roles. Sacresants are much more a unit that can take a point and be hard to shift. Repentia are missiles you have to hide before they are used and then die after they've killed their target. Which is better depends on what you need done.