Warhawk by Chris Wraight

[Moonreaper666]

Garro vs Typhus could be in Echoes

[Scribe]

I was really hoping to see this through to the end but lord...it's been a long ride.

[jaxom]

 

 

 

There's so incredibly much that hit the cutting room floor at this point, it sours me on the Siege as a project. There was too much buildup that will never get a payoff - or worse, had their potential thrown so far down the shredder, you cannot even fill in the missing pieces via shorts or novellas after the fact, because it'd develop said characters and plot points past where they are in the Siege, and end up causing conflicts.

 

...and a reminder that apparently everybody forgot that Garro still had beef with Mortarion, and in the final book before the Siege, made sure the reader knew he was going to get his dues. Instead, he just killed a few Sons of Horus and vanished. It smells of bad communication and coordination.

They never had a plan, never made a plan, and meeting up for coffee and posting it on Facebook once every 12 months makes for a nice post but not much else. If anything i am surprised they only forgot as much as they did. 

 

 

I think it was Abnett or Wright, but they talk a bit about this in the after notes of their book. The siege is huge and war is bloody and random. Unless it was a specific narrative that carried beyond the Siege or has pre-established in lore, everything else was up for grabs in terms of an "unsatisfactory" ending. For example, Garro may have a hate-on for Mortarion, but the Siege and Mortarion's nature make such a confrontation untenable compared to having the Khan and White Scars retake the port (an established lore point). If the Khan and WS are there then they may as well have the denouement of Pale King vs Laughing Death.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I do wonder how much threads are planned for after the Heresy compared to stuff they could have ended during the siege books. But as Jaxom said, they do have to hit certain plot points.

Edited April 29, 2022 by ShadowSwordmaster

[nagashnee]

 

 

 

 

There's so incredibly much that hit the cutting room floor at this point, it sours me on the Siege as a project. There was too much buildup that will never get a payoff - or worse, had their potential thrown so far down the shredder, you cannot even fill in the missing pieces via shorts or novellas after the fact, because it'd develop said characters and plot points past where they are in the Siege, and end up causing conflicts.

 

...and a reminder that apparently everybody forgot that Garro still had beef with Mortarion, and in the final book before the Siege, made sure the reader knew he was going to get his dues. Instead, he just killed a few Sons of Horus and vanished. It smells of bad communication and coordination.

They never had a plan, never made a plan, and meeting up for coffee and posting it on Facebook once every 12 months makes for a nice post but not much else. If anything i am surprised they only forgot as much as they did. 

 

 

I think it was Abnett or Wright, but they talk a bit about this in the after notes of their book. The siege is huge and war is bloody and random. Unless it was a specific narrative that carried beyond the Siege or has pre-established in lore, everything else was up for grabs in terms of an "unsatisfactory" ending. For example, Garro may have a hate-on for Mortarion, but the Siege and Mortarion's nature make such a confrontation untenable compared to having the Khan and White Scars retake the port (an established lore point). If the Khan and WS are there then they may as well have the denouement of Pale King vs Laughing Death.

 

See spending books in the series to set things up that will not get resolved because 'its more realistic' and 'pre existing lore' but spending page after page on perpetuals or arda or any number of last minute additions and 'twists' doesn't scream plan or 'realism'.  It screams each author will focus on what he wants as long as they stick to the vague group outline, the better the author the better the result. The more they enjoy the old lore the closer it will be. Chris Wraight is for me the master of taking the old lore, giving it a new shine and inserting it into books. Heck in this book alone he does it constantly and well.  While Abnett is the most likely to ignore/totally alter it to suit his own vision.  

 

While i recognize they were never going to please everyone, there is nothing wrong with admitting that the HH series started small, blew up, changed visions 2-3 times (plus changes at the company itself). and finally just had to end, and that many of the issues in the siege books reflect this.  

[Moonreaper666]

The Perpetual idea is necessary otherwise the Traitors easily win the Heresy

 

Without it, Vulkan dies at Isstvan V causing his few Salamanders to mostly go crazy. Konrad's obsessiveness is now dedicated to inflicting as much damage to the Imperium instead of torturing Vulkan.

 

Ollianius Pius dies on Calth along with more Ultramarines to the Daemons.

 

Valdor plus several Custodes are killed by Magnus or the Golden Throne is blown up and the Emperor is permanently injured

 

Alivia Sureka dies at Molech. Malcador stays dead after Magnus kills him.

[Scribe]

The Perpetual idea is necessary otherwise the Traitors easily win the Heresy

 

An actual fallacy, the entire Perpetual arc is as unnecessary as what you commonly push is unmitigated fan fiction.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

The Perpetual idea is necessary otherwise the Traitors easily win the Heresy

An actual fallacy, the entire Perpetual arc is as unnecessary as what you commonly push is unmitigated fan fiction.

Without Perpetuals

 

-Vulkan dies via Nuclear Bombardment on Isstvan V. Salamanders everywhere become unstable.

 

-Alivia Sureka dies on Molech so she can't sacrifice her life to revive Malcador

 

-Ollianius Pius dies on Calth without his millenia of fighting experience and faith

 

-With Malcador dead for real the Emperor can't leave the Golden Throne. Traitors and Daemons eventually breakthrough and destroy the Throne

 

-Magnus destroys the Throne dooming the Emperor and the Imperium without Vulkan to stop him

 

-Shattered Legions fail to steal Primaris formula from Sons of Horus. Traitors start producing Chaos Primaris Marines

 

-Anval Thawn dies as a young person instead of being a Grey Knights

 

Facts are facts

[Scribe]

 

 

The Perpetual idea is necessary otherwise the Traitors easily win the Heresy

An actual fallacy, the entire Perpetual arc is as unnecessary as what you commonly push is unmitigated fan fiction.

Without Perpetuals

 

-Vulkan dies via Nuclear Bombardment on Isstvan V. Salamanders everywhere become unstable.

 

-Alivia Sureka dies on Molech so she can't sacrifice her life to revive Malcador

 

-Ollianius Pius dies on Calth without his millenia of fighting experience and faith

 

-With Malcador dead for real the Emperor can't leave the Golden Throne. Traitors and Daemons eventually breakthrough and destroy the Throne

 

-Magnus destroys the Throne dooming the Emperor and the Imperium without Vulkan to stop him

 

-Shattered Legions fail to steal Primaris formula from Sons of Horus. Traitors start producing Chaos Primaris Marines

 

-Anval Thawn dies as a young person instead of being a Grey Knights

 

Facts are facts

 

 

 

Funny, I went line by line, but ultimately it was the same response over and over.

 

So? Like, really. SO?!

 

"Oh they would actually have to write the HH Series as the story was presented without a bunch of ham fisted retcons, and flawed, forced plot hooks."

 

Oh no! Anyway...

 

All you are convincing me of, is that removal of the perpetuals would have forced the authors to stick to the bloody script.

[DarkChaplain]

...most of those points only exist / were invented after the fact to find a use for the Perpetuals in the first place.

 

A bunch of them are literally down to Magnus going to the Golden Throne in person and causing trouble on the way - but this wasn't in the original fluff. Malcador never died until he sat on the Throne - Alivia's sacrifice was never required to get there. But since Alivia Sureka exists and was a dangling plot thread, she had to fill a role somehow - so McNeill came up with a way to do that.

Reading the short stories featuring her up until Fury of Magnus, it seems rather unlikely that this was to be her fate all along, rather than McNeill improvising to wrap her up.

 

If we subtract the addition that Magnus "breaks into Shards", which was not in the original lore, we can easily remove most of the plot points during the Siege and Heresy series as a whole without issues. Whether the whole idea was a good or a bad one is subjective, but all of these "if"s are dependent on changes to the core Heresy narrative like this. Alivia sacrificing herself, Magnus fighting Vulkan, none of that was set in stone or had to happen - it did happen because it was convenient / an economic way of wrapping up loose threads that were created along the way to pad out the narrative or add depth to the setting. The story as a whole would have been just fine without most - or even any - of them.

[Scribe]

...most of those points only exist / were invented after the fact to find a use for the Perpetuals in the first place.

 

A bunch of them are literally down to Magnus going to the Golden Throne in person and causing trouble on the way - but this wasn't in the original fluff. Malcador never died until he sat on the Throne - Alivia's sacrifice was never required to get there. But since Alivia Sureka exists and was a dangling plot thread, she had to fill a role somehow - so McNeill came up with a way to do that.

Reading the short stories featuring her up until Fury of Magnus, it seems rather unlikely that this was to be her fate all along, rather than McNeill improvising to wrap her up.

 

If we subtract the addition that Magnus "breaks into Shards", which was not in the original lore, we can easily remove most of the plot points during the Siege and Heresy series as a whole without issues. Whether the whole idea was a good or a bad one is subjective, but all of these "if"s are dependent on changes to the core Heresy narrative like this. Alivia sacrificing herself, Magnus fighting Vulkan, none of that was set in stone or had to happen - it did happen because it was convenient / an economic way of wrapping up loose threads that were created along the way to pad out the narrative or add depth to the setting. The story as a whole would have been just fine without most - or even any - of them.

 

rofl exactly.

 

I feel like it may have gone something like this.

 

"OK so here are the plot points for the Heresy."

"Right but this is all ancient history right?"

"That's correct."

"So like...maybe we dont know the story?"

"I mean, sure, 10,000 is a long time."

"So...like...I have this other story I want to tell..."

 

So much of the Heresy just reads like "Nah I didnt want to tell that story." and it really has gotten to a point of pissing me off.

[DukeLeto69]

I guess there are people who loved the previous lore around the HH and wanted to see THAT story and...

 

There are people who accept that the previous lore was hamfisted, made little sense, and was always going to be rewritten anyway.

 

Like it or not, the lore based on the BL novels and Forgeworld books IS THE LORE now.

[Bobss]

I guess there are people who loved the previous lore around the HH and wanted to see THAT story and...

 

There are people who accept that the previous lore was hamfisted, made little sense, and was always going to be rewritten anyway.

 

Like it or not, the lore based on the BL novels and Forgeworld books IS THE LORE now.

 

I think there's a bigger debate to be had (that this forum probably won't let me have) regarding how geek culture has become insufferably partisan. I enjoy the overwhelming majority of fluff additions or lore changes or background detailing or story rewriting or narrative retconning or whatever it is since the Billy King White Dwarf days or the Alan Merrett Collected Visions days, but because I am critical of some of it this effectively lumps me in with the grognards, right? That seems to be the implication here whether your post meant that or not (and I've seen similar posts across the web where this belief is genuinely intended). Come on bro, how is this anything other than the complete 180 of those people on 4chan's /tg/ board or hidden Facebook groups or wherever claiming the Horus Heresy tabletop game is the 'one true 40k tabletop system' and 'Black Library novels aren't canon.' I'm starting to notice a lot of exclusivity being pushed under the guise of inclusivity in this and many other hobbies. I find sports communities less hostile than hobby communities nowadays which is bizarre compared to how things were in the 90s and the 2000s. Scribe might be quite vocal about things in Black Library's Horus Heresy that he dislikes, but what about all of the stuff he likes? He's probably cool with Angron being transformed into a demon prince of Khorne on Nuceria in Betrayer when I personally think it stagnated both Angron and the World Eaters for the rest of the Heresy and could've been done without

[Scribe]

There was a general arc to the HH. A whole bunch of what we received is not related to this major story beats, retconned things that didn't need to be changed, or injected characters that then drove changes just to support their existence.

 

That's just not great in my opinion, and is why over a decade later, we don't have a completed series, for a story we 'knew' the broad strokes of, 20+ years ago.

 

And yeah, I'm sure I like things others don't, and there have been some good books and stories out of the 50+ novels or whatever it is, but like that perpetual post shows, they twisted the story, to tell something else.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Scribe

[Moonreaper666]

The Old Lore regarding the Siege never made sense.

 

Konrad, Lorgar and their entire Legions were present in the Old Lore! Horus was never wounded!!!

 

Solar War would have turned out much differently. Horus causes Kerberos to detonate prematurely, killing Sigismund and much of his fleet.

 

Horus, Konrad and Lorgar kill Dorn and take over the Phalanx. They drop the Phalanx onto the Palace, damaging it but not destroying it

 

Since there is no Aegis or Anti-Daemon Aura Orbital Bombardment and Daemon Primarchs easily RIP-N-TEAR through the defenders

 

Traitors reach the Throne in just Three Days!!!

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

I guess there are people who loved the previous lore around the HH and wanted to see THAT story and...

 

There are people who accept that the previous lore was hamfisted, made little sense, and was always going to be rewritten anyway.

 

Like it or not, the lore based on the BL novels and Forgeworld books IS THE LORE now.

I think there's a bigger debate to be had (that this forum probably won't let me have) regarding how geek culture has become insufferably partisan. I enjoy the overwhelming majority of fluff additions or lore changes or background detailing or story rewriting or narrative retconning or whatever it is since the Billy King White Dwarf days or the Alan Merrett Collected Visions days, but because I am critical of some of it this effectively lumps me in with the grognards, right? That seems to be the implication here whether your post meant that or not (and I've seen similar posts across the web where this belief is genuinely intended). Come on bro, how is this anything other than the complete 180 of those people on 4chan's /tg/ board or hidden Facebook groups or wherever claiming the Horus Heresy tabletop game is the 'one true 40k tabletop system' and 'Black Library novels aren't canon.' I'm starting to notice a lot of exclusivity being pushed under the guise of inclusivity in this and many other hobbies. I find sports communities less hostile than hobby communities nowadays which is bizarre compared to how things were in the 90s and the 2000s. Scribe might be quite vocal about things in Black Library's Horus Heresy that he dislikes, but what about all of the stuff he likes? He's probably cool with Angron being transformed into a demon prince of Khorne on Nuceria in Betrayer when I personally think it stagnated both Angron and the World Eaters for the rest of the Heresy and could've been done without

I should probably have prefaced my post with IMHO!

 

I am not commenting (or intending to comment) on whether it is right or wrong to prefer the old lore (in various permutations) or the lore that has evolved since 2006 and the release of Horus Rising. Everyone is totally entitled to enjoy what THEY enjoy.

 

My comment was really intended as a simple statement of fact:

 

1. The lore in the BL novels and FW books is THE lore now. It may be revisited again and changed in future (I doubt it) but for now the lore since 2006 supersedes anything that cane before.

 

2. Regardless of whether someone likes it more, the lore in Collected Visions was a total mess of contradictions and timeline/chronology weirdness.

 

B&C is the only community I am active in these days (for a few years now). The others that used to be good for discussing BL books all died a death. I post maybe 98% about BL books as I haven’t played the TT game since early 2000s. So I am totally unaware of what else is going on in the fandom!

[Scribe]

 

 

I guess there are people who loved the previous lore around the HH and wanted to see THAT story and...

 

There are people who accept that the previous lore was hamfisted, made little sense, and was always going to be rewritten anyway.

 

Like it or not, the lore based on the BL novels and Forgeworld books IS THE LORE now.

I think there's a bigger debate to be had (that this forum probably won't let me have) regarding how geek culture has become insufferably partisan. I enjoy the overwhelming majority of fluff additions or lore changes or background detailing or story rewriting or narrative retconning or whatever it is since the Billy King White Dwarf days or the Alan Merrett Collected Visions days, but because I am critical of some of it this effectively lumps me in with the grognards, right? That seems to be the implication here whether your post meant that or not (and I've seen similar posts across the web where this belief is genuinely intended). Come on bro, how is this anything other than the complete 180 of those people on 4chan's /tg/ board or hidden Facebook groups or wherever claiming the Horus Heresy tabletop game is the 'one true 40k tabletop system' and 'Black Library novels aren't canon.' I'm starting to notice a lot of exclusivity being pushed under the guise of inclusivity in this and many other hobbies. I find sports communities less hostile than hobby communities nowadays which is bizarre compared to how things were in the 90s and the 2000s. Scribe might be quite vocal about things in Black Library's Horus Heresy that he dislikes, but what about all of the stuff he likes? He's probably cool with Angron being transformed into a demon prince of Khorne on Nuceria in Betrayer when I personally think it stagnated both Angron and the World Eaters for the rest of the Heresy and could've been done without

I should probably have prefaced my post with IMHO!

 

I am not commenting (or intending to comment) on whether it is right or wrong to prefer the old lore (in various permutations) or the lore that has evolved since 2006 and the release of Horus Rising. Everyone is totally entitled to enjoy what THEY enjoy.

 

My comment was really intended as a simple statement of fact:

 

1. The lore in the BL novels and FW books is THE lore now. It may be revisited again and changed in future (I doubt it) but for now the lore since 2006 supersedes anything that cane before.

 

2. Regardless of whether someone likes it more, the lore in Collected Visions was a total mess of contradictions and timeline/chronology weirdness.

 

B&C is the only community I am active in these days (for a few years now). The others that used to be good for discussing BL books all died a death. I post maybe 98% about BL books as I haven’t played the TT game since early 2000s. So I am totally unaware of what else is going on in the fandom!

 

 

No disagreement here. The retcon's and additions are the lore now, I'm not disputing that.

 

My point of contention is that some of those additions were needed at all, when its pretty easy to look at some of them, and see they are essentially just circular references. They exist for no reason, and later are referenced and built upon almost entirely within themselves and their own little unnecessary arc.

 

"But then Vulkan dies!"

 

And?

 

Thats my point. He should have, and stayed that way.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The Old Lore regarding the Siege never made sense.

 

Konrad, Lorgar and their entire Legions were present in the Old Lore! Horus was never wounded!!!

 

Solar War would have turned out much differently. Horus causes Kerberos to detonate prematurely, killing Sigismund and much of his fleet.

 

Horus, Konrad and Lorgar kill Dorn and take over the Phalanx. They drop the Phalanx onto the Palace, damaging it but not destroying it

 

Since there is no Aegis or Anti-Daemon Aura Orbital Bombardment and Daemon Primarchs easily RIP-N-TEAR through the defenders

 

Traitors reach the Throne in just Three Days!!!

Find a source that explicitly says Lorgar and curze were on terra.

 

Oh wait, tvtropes doesn't have that...

 

I get you can't talk about the novels and arcs in them because you didn't read them, but can you stop with the wishlisting fanfic.

[Roomsky]

 

Find a source that explicitly says Lorgar and curze were on terra.

 

Oh wait, tvtropes doesn't have that...

 

I get you can't talk about the novels and arcs in them because you didn't read them, but can you stop with the wishlisting fanfic.

 

 

Loathe as I am to be that person, we at the very least had the Word Bearer's omnibus referencing Lorgar and the bulk of the legion being present at Terra. I don't know if it was ever laid down in a codex, but this is BL contradicting BL.

 

And while Moonreaper is generally guilty of Chaos :cussy, I think the idea that some changes needed to be made from "9 legions bare down on 3, then the Ultramarines arrive late and make up the difference" is a fair one. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Roomsky

[Noserenda]

Never forget its all equally true, even the stuff that contradicts itself or makes no sense. Well, at least the stuff GW publishes rather than mad fan fics ;) 

[Scribe]

Never forget its all equally true, even the stuff that contradicts itself or makes no sense. Well, at least the stuff GW publishes rather than mad fan fics

 

On my short list of 'concepts I hate with every fiber of my being' the 'its all true and nothing is' is certainly in that top 10.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Find a source that explicitly says Lorgar and curze were on terra.

 

Oh wait, tvtropes doesn't have that...

 

I get you can't talk about the novels and arcs in them because you didn't read them, but can you stop with the wishlisting fanfic.

 

Loathe as I am to be that person, we at the very least had the Word Bearer's omnibus referencing Lorgar and the bulk of the legion being present at Terra. I don't know if it was ever laid down in a codex, but this is BL contradicting BL.

 

And while Moonreaper is generally guilty of Chaos :cussy, I think the idea that some changes needed to be made from "9 legions bare down on 3, then the Ultramarines arrive late and make up the difference" is a fair one.

Had Perturabo and the Iron Warriors stayed the Siege would have been won by Horus halfway through Warhawk

 

The BL authors had to invent the Aegis to explain why orbital bombardment didn't just kill 99.9% of the defenders and destroyed most of the defenses, making the Siege a cakewalk!!!

 

The Anti-Daemon field did not exist in the Old Lore. They had to make that up so the Daemons don't just overrun Terra within 5 hours!

 

Lexicanum post Canon Conflicts in their articles, including the one on the Siege

 

It's a huge difference going from Lorgar + 150k Marines to just Zardu Laylak + 5k Marines

 

Had Lorgar and the Word Bearers joined Fulgrim and the Emperor Children's in their attack during Saturnine the Traitors would have won

 

Plus Lorgar's fleet would have exterminared Corswain's force before they land on Terra

 

Konrad would have killed Sigismund, Fafnir Rahn, Camba Diaz, Jublai Khan, Garviel Loken, Archamus then Dorn during Solar War. Each one is a massive blow to the Loyalists.

[MarineRaider]

Had Russ not had a moment of compassion Horus would have died and the Heresy with him. Had, had had, had....

Edited May 3, 2022 by MarineRaider

[Scribe]

Had Russ not had a moment of compassion Horus would have died and the Heresy with him. Had, had had, had....

Who wrote that?

[lansalt]

 

Had Russ not had a moment of compassion Horus would have died and the Heresy with him. Had, had had, had....

Who wrote that?

 

IIRC it happened in Wolfsbane by Guy Haley. Russ hesitates after wounding Horus with the Emperor's spear that gives the target clarity, and for a moment Horus becomes his older self.