GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[Halandaar]

Cheers, but I still don't understand! 

It's such a huge figure, but what is it profit on?

 

I think (not 100%) that it's the "profit" figure the studio (i.e. design to manufacture) makes from selling finished product to internal departments; namely the webstore, trade sales department and retail chain. The figures then reported for those separate divisions seem to be the profit they make from selling that product on. Maybe?!

[Inquisitor lorr]

 

 

Cheers, but I still don't understand!

It's such a huge figure, but what is it profit on?

I think (not 100%) that it's the "profit" figure the studio (i.e. design to manufacture) makes from selling finished product to internal departments; namely the webstore, trade sales department and retail chain. The figures then reported for those separate divisions seem to be the profit they make from selling that product on. Maybe?!

It’s exactly that. It’s an accounting reporting requirement in many jurisdictions. Where segments of a business are sufficiently separate and have their own budgets/revenues etc, and where one provides products/services to another segment, the value of those sales generally has to be recorded in accounts.

[Valkyrion]

I think i get it - the GW we see are just the retailer, they have to themselves purchase that stock from somewhere, even if it is from a division of themselves?

[Inquisitor lorr]

I think i get it - the GW we see are just the retailer, they have to themselves purchase that stock from somewhere, even if it is from a division of themselves?

Pretty much. I haven’t actually looked at GW’s accounts, but usually the figure you have mentioned would be deducted from top line revenue, so you can easily see what revenue was generated externally.

 

The main reasons they generally break it down like that is so you can easily identify operational streamlining opportunities, risks and dependencies - e.g. if department B (say telephone sales) is driving all demand/generating all ‘sales’ for department A (manufacturing) there is a risk if something happens to department B (for argument’s sake - telephone calls become illegal…). You (and shareholders/prospective purchasers) can then clearly map that risk. It’s only really relevant where you have a very large company with lots of departments which each have their own revenue and demands, but which rely on other departments. To be honest, if you’d have asked me if GW was big enough/structured in such a way to warrant it, having not seen the GW accounts, I’d have probably said not, but they are probably required to do so by the relevant accounting standards.

[Valkyrion]

Are we (regarding the design to manufacture) talking about Citadel? Is that the manufacturing arm of games workshop?

 

I admit to still being a bit confused in this context.... 

 

I'm really interested, and I would like to learn, but I'm not sure that this is the place to give a frater a lesson on multi million pound accountancy practices, or that I have the mental capacity to fully digest it anyway!

[Arkhanist]

That's an interesting thought; it could also be an artifact of the original company setup. Games Workshop was originally just a retail store, and they sold other companies miniatures, d&d stuff and handmade wooden games IIRC. Citadel Miniatures was founded as a separate company that made lead minis, including d&d ones, also sold by GW; they had a partnership with ral partha, to sell each other's minis in the US and UK respectively in the 80s. Marauder Miniatures was founded by ex Citadel staff, and were also sold by GW - they were still around when I started. Forge World was created as a semi-independent brand to make terrain and large scale collector models, separate from their mainstream Citadel manufacturing; it remained a skunk works for oddball stuff for a long time, and still is to an extent.

 

Citadel merged back into GW and GW switched to selling Citadel exclusively a long time ago, and now is just a brand name. But paint and miniatures are still under the citadel imprint, while the retail stores are rebranded to 'Warhammer' stores. (possibly to cut down on the amount of people that wander in and ask if they sell Nintendo!) So when you have Citadel making stuff, Warhammer retail stores selling Citadel stuff, the GW website selling Citadel plus specialist games which are under Forge world now, and Citadel also selling minis & paint to 3rd party trade, plus wherever Forge world and Black Library are in the structure these days, all run by different teams, it does make sense to have some of those as separate accounting items.

[Imren]

What an interesting read! From the corporate reports I think we all can agree that GW is doing fine. Also some of the GW-historians among you pointed out that GW did manage to rise from hard times when their sales slumped in the past. When it comes to pricing and the "market" I'd like to point out another thing that is less discussed here but significant for the topic and seems to be the elephant in the room, and that is the recast market.

 

Legally there is no doubt that recasting is not allowed commercially. Especially in our part of the world. Majority of this community comes from the western world (in the political and cultural sense) and most of us morally frown upon it. But there is a significant GW games community in the eastern world too, especially Russia and China, there are communities there that translates the rulebooks/codexes and other GW publications and spread the pdf's and in combination with a blooming recasting market that in practice roams free there is a significant Warhammer scene in those countries too. Those communities would have never existed if GW legal teams had any suction in those countries' jurisdictions. As far as I understand Australians that have suffered alot from higher official GW RRPs than the rest of the world (especially the 30k community) have also tapped into the Russian/Chinese recaster market.

 

Now we may think this is bad and legally it is crystal clear this is not acceptable. But morally, it is not so clear, I see for myself a moral greyscale between morally acceptable and not. I do understand the argument that recasting is bad for the IP owners business. But that is true assuming that those who consume recasted products would in fact buy the original GW product if recasters where not available, and that is most lilkely not true for Russia and China because of their middle class are smaller in relative size and have waay lower average incomes. Also I believe that culturally speaking, copying is much more acceptable in these countries/cultures that in the western world.

 

I find that the recasting business is on an ethical grayscale (from my western-culture mindset point of view) simply because two reasons:

1. Several recasters' product have a higher quality standard than GW (Forgeworld) when it comes to resin models. Not only have they less bubbles and warpage, they also have less mould slip.
2. Recasters provide event exclusive models and models that are out-of-production at GW/FW. What options do you have if you really want/need a Mechanicum Macroarid explorator, apothecary in cataphractii armour, Autilon Skorr or a Achilles-alpha pattern Land raider?

Because of these reasons, I find it in some circusmstances morally ok to turn to recasters, but obviously I am aware that it is legally not.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Imren

[Gederas]

[lots of stuff]

Because of these reasons, I find it in some circusmstances morally ok to turn to recasters, but obviously I am aware that it is legally not.

Honestly Imren, I agree with almost everything you've said about that.

 

If GW/FW no longer makes a specific model, morally it's okay in my books to buy recast. I mean, I'll outright say it: For my Dark Angels 30k force, I bought recast because Forge World doesn't make the Caestus Assault Ram, Mark II marines/shoulders or the Legion/Chapter specific doors for (non-Deimos) Rhinos and Land Raiders anymore. Legally, it's not okay. Morally? If they don't want my money, I'll buy elsewhere. Simple as that.

[Noserenda]

I mean its still not moral, a few of the bigger recasters get up to a few real nasty practices, buying OOP or Limited Ed minis is doing somewhat less harm.

[LameBeard]

I think this is a good point. I have been eyeing some OOP alpha legion cataphractii pads for a while, then realised it was a recaster. If someone is ready to operate outside copyright law, maybe I could live with that. But how do I know they are also operating within the environmental laws that apply to their manufacture? Are they paying tax? Surely they have to exist completely off the grid for any regulation? I accept copyright laws vary by jurisdiction, but this still feels too grey too me.

[Halandaar]

Look, I get it. The option to buy an official model from source doesn't exist in some cases and therefore if you're buying it from a recaster you aren't directly hurting GW by doing so. But who, or what else are you hurting?

 

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

 

It's a much more complicated situation than "can't deny GW money if they don't want to sell me the product".

[RWJP]

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

 

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

 

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.

[Rik Lightstar]

 

 

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

The other point people seem to miss:

 

If these people are happy to operate outside the law in terms of manufacturing counterfeit goods, how safe is your personal information and payment information when you buy from them?

 

I'm sure recasters would have no issue in selling on your personal data to make some extra money, or potentially even using your card details.

In addition to these really good points, you simply don't know what your "resin" product is made of and you're likely to be handling, sanding, filing and cutting that stuff.

 

Taking that a step further, you're creating a market for it in poor countries meaning people are getting paid subsistence wages to work with potentially harmful substances likely with very little or no PPE.

 

The step after is that these aren't "enthusiastic hobbyists trying to supply affordable models to poor gamers", these are organisations that are already engaging in large scale counterfeiting and using that revenue to fund other sides of their business.

 

I'd say it's far less morally justifiable than "I got a cheap dreadnought" may first appear.

 

Rik

[MegaVolt87]

Look, I get it. The option to buy an official model from source doesn't exist in some cases and therefore if you're buying it from a recaster you aren't directly hurting GW by doing so. But who, or what else are you hurting?

 

Whether you see it that way "morally" or not, recasts are counterfeit goods which means people/groups making them are already operating outside the law and having to keep their operations hidden. How much notice do you think those places take of local laws regarding safety, environment, social responsibility, taxation etc?

 

It's a much more complicated situation than "can't deny GW money if they don't want to sell me the product".

 

Actually, shall we say less than legal enterprises have a big interest maintaining safety and environmental standards, because if they don't thats extra charges they are prosecuted for if they are caught and by having good practices there they are less likely to be caught/ detected in the first place. Bringing this back around to GW/ FW, my line is OOP/ limited ed models being sold as original when they are re-casts is definitely wrong. Also its impossible for a company to lose any money on goods they no longer make/ discontinue to make. Another example- classic cars. The original parts are becoming scarcer and more expensive/ unobtainable, so after market re-production parts for cheaper fill a gap. Car companies aren't going to lose money on discontinued cars 30-40+ years old that don't use factory parts they no longer make (owners take the hit on value when there are less original parts).

 

For arguments sake, lets say FW announces tomorrow all OOP items are coming back this year to the range. That could easily re-capture half the people chasing re-casts on OOP models, who would rather spend their money with FW, even if its more expensive. (this is me). Making some money is better than the no money FW are making now by not maintaining their product line. If FW wants to no longer meet the demands of its market, others will and that is FW's fault for giving them that leeway in the first place. Like that comic with the guy riding the bike, taking a stick and placing it in the front wheel deliberately and falling off the bike, same energy. 

[armarnis]

Virtually no recaster needs your credit card as they almost exclusivly use paypal except a few russian ones. These usually use a similar service tho. Talk to your bank about a virtual/prepaid/burner card if in doubt!

So there is even an added layer of safety due to buyer protection if PP is involved.

 

I can only speak about a certain few recasters from china but they have to follow rather strict enviromental regulations and the used workshops need to supply their workers with personal safety gear. And these things are controlled by the gov regular. Both with sheduled visits and also via unsheduled ones.

 

This is not meant to push people to buy from recasters but to shed some light on a shady biz so people can have a better clue with what they aree dealing.

Edited August 2, 2021 by armarnis

[AenarIT]

It’s not only an issue with OOP models, but with minor things like transfer sheets as well.

 

Example: you want to start a Red Scorpions army, one of the most iconic chapters aside from the 1st founding ones. You go to the FW website only to find that the RS transfer sheet has been OOP for years now.

 

You can either:

- give up and change chapter;

- decide to freehand a red scorpion on a white circle on a black field on every shoulder pad, vehicle, … in your army, hoping you decide not to commit sudoku after the first couple of models;

- try to contact one of the few companies that offer custom transfer sheets hoping they don’t recognize the RS logo as a GW one, which they officially can’t print as it’s part of GW’s IP;

- learn to 3D sculpt and 3D print RS pads and insignias yourself;

- buy unofficial RS transfer sheets or unofficial RS shoulder pads from the internet, hoping the quality is good enough and despite these being in a grey area legally, as the logo is GW’s IP;

- buy recasted RS pads and insignias from recasters.

 

Stopping the production of models is not fun for us customers, but if the models are moved to Legends the issue is not that big.

Stopping the production of something that simply needs a printer and some transfer paper, something which is essential to a whole collection, simply pushes customers towards (technically) illegal solutions. And that’s money left on the table, because the transfer sheet design is sitting on a hard disk somewhere in Nottingham and a single piece of paper could be sold for £20.

 

I will never feel bad for having spent upwards of €200 just for recasted insignias, unofficial transfer sheets and ultimately 3D printed unofficial pads just because GW stopped printing official transfer sheets.

Two official transfer sheets for £40 would’ve been not only cheaper but a better solution for sure. I even asked the FW customer service directly but they weren’t able to help me at all.

Resorting to unofficial solutions wasn’t a money issue in this case, at least for me.

[armarnis]

hoping you decide not to commit sudoku after the first couple of models

That line made me almost die from laughing!

[Noserenda]

I can only speak about a certain few recasters from china but they have to follow rather strict enviromental regulations and the used workshops need to supply their workers with personal safety gear. And these things are controlled by the gov regular. Both with sheduled visits and also via unsheduled ones.

 

This is not meant to push people to buy from recasters but to shed some light on a shady biz so people can have a better clue with what they aree dealing.

I mean ive heard second hand from a very reliable source about chinese workshops paying pennies for workers without any ppe at all doing resin casting work. Thats not to say thats always the case but it certainly happens, its what opened my eyes to exactly how the cheap forgeworld minis are so cheap. 

[Roma]

I can only speak for myself when I say they're shooting themselves in the foot. Ive been in the hobby a long time, tech-savvy etc so I'm not a huge demographic but:

I can afford GW stuff. Im not paying for it at these prices however because I'm a 'won't pay 10 dollars for popcorn at the theatre' kinda guy and it doesnt matter how much I make.
Hence:
- Pretty much no impulse buys
- Recasts for all FW stuff I just cannot stomach those prices for resin
- Kitbash/stand-ins for characters not paying their current HQ prices

Also they can spend money to RnD all the expansions/books they want, they cost me exactly 0 money (unless new models).

3D printing isn't at the right effort/reward ratio for me just yet, but if GW keeps pushing hard Im sure me and many other will get there one day. What GW have going for them is their sculpts and IP are simply the best on the fantasy/scifi market and I dont want to accept anything below that par.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Roma

[Commisar Necros]

People are really overselling the criminal risks to re-casters and printers. Its less than a grand to get set up with a decent printer, curing rig, ppe, and then a scanner. Then a couple hours looking for stuff online. You dont need to have a shady criminal enterprise for something that is not going to make you a lot of money(like lets say pot where its illegal). On one of the bigger saturns I could print like 3 tanks a day or 100minis, and that's a single guy in a garage with a single printer. Unless your doing massive scale you wont need much more than that for an etsy shop. There's no demand for hundreds of people to be trapped in crappy/no PPE and bringing it up is just a red herring when a lot of these shops are a single guy running it out of his garage in Philly or Devon. If someone can show me an article that talks about it ill read it, but the problem is that GW isnt competing about ideas(minis have been around for longer than them), quality( 3d printed resin is better than anything I've gotten from forge world), price( most expensive out there) or service(scalpers, FOMO, price raises). GW should go after people who are replicating whole lines, but the guy printing bitz (a market they dont cater to) and non-GW sculpt proxies isn't competing with them.

 

3-d printing has lowered the cost to me and let me customize my army more(something they used to encourage) while letting me spend on the extra stuff. I use GW paints and brushes because they're good and not too out of line expensive. I buy crusade books or white dwarfs where I used to pass. I printed some sisters to show someone, now they already got the rulebook from them and will get the combat patrol box coming out. But it costs to much for them to get more than that for quite some time. The hobby is expensive, but they are fighting to make it more so, not less.

[Rik Lightstar]

I think you're conflating 3d printing and recasting here.

 

Typically by recastic we're talking about them creating a mould from the original kit and then cracking out resin reproductions of it at a knock down price. It's labour intensive but if you're paying your workforce pennies then that's irrelevant.

 

Rik

[Noserenda]

Yes you are definitely conflating too wildly unrelated processes here, they are not even slightly related except for the final product being broadly the same. Bear in mind recasting is not limited to just GW, they do all sorts from wargaming figures to gundamns, busts and pretty much any collectible tat of a similar scale. By friend who reported back from china said the line he saw was a mix of Death Korps and pokemon figures for example.

[Halandaar]

People are really overselling the criminal risks to re-casters and printers...

As already mentioned, you're conflating 3d printing and recasting which are completely different processes, and then only really addressing 3d printing.

 

Recasting is making a mold of a legitimate product, and then casting new counterfeit minis from that mold. So unlike 3d printing where your space investment is minimal, a recasting setup requires a lot of space to store all those physical molds, arguably on par with GW itself given the absolutely huge range of models (including OOP) on offer. So you're talking about workshops or business units in terms of size, maybe even up to factory size if they are producing a lot of product at once. An operation that size is a lot harder to hide than in a garage, which is probably why a lot of recasters operate out of countries with a lax attitude towards copyright.

 

Aside from all this, resin casting is a lot more labour intensive than "3d printer go brrr" and involves working directly with resin which is often of questionable quality (to keep costs down), hence concerns around working conditions and PPE.

[Commisar Necros]

Your assuming they're going the more difficult route when something that is easier to do with similar quality is out there, and then not actually providing proof of what your claim is. I'm talking about competitors to GW and how that effects their prices and practices. You can scan an object now and 3d print it without all of the labor of molds and such easier and easier now as well.

[Noserenda]

Your assuming they're going the more difficult route when something that is easier to do with similar quality is out there, and then not actually providing proof of what your claim is. I'm talking about competitors to GW and how that effects their prices and practices. You can scan an object now and 3d print it without all of the labor of molds and such easier and easier now as well.

I mean... I dont know how to explain that factories exist and most things arent made by a 3d printer in a way that isnt wildly condescending? Resin casting is vastly cheaper and more straightforward than 3d printing and when you are doing so in bulk it makes a huge difference, especially when the labour costs are so cheap. I would not be surprised to see them making masters that way though.

 

Im not sure where you get competitors from either, the closest thing to competitors GW have all use injection moulded plastic which is still beyond the realm of anything short of a full factory. Recasters and the like are just parasites really.