GW and pricing, there's a problem.

[MegaVolt87]

Demiurg/ Squats, both end up as basically space dwarves. They would get a re-design if it happened like primaris. A primaris is still a SM, a Demiurg would be a Squat/ Space Dwarves. The whole game already crosses over itself like you noted, who cares if there is more? It would be worth doing because it hits multiple objectives, nod to the oldies and modernized to appeal to the next generation.

[Lord_Ikka]

Demiurg/ Squats, both end up as basically space dwarves. They would get a re-design if it happened like primaris. A primaris is still a SM, a Demiurg would be a Squat/ Space Dwarves. The whole game already crosses over itself like you noted, who cares if there is more? It would be worth doing because it hits multiple objectives, nod to the oldies and modernized to appeal to the next generation.

True, but I just can't see it happening now, nor would I want it to. There are some major revamps needed to existing lines first-

1) Craftworld Eldar and Imperial Guard lines need to be redone. Craftworlds basically need all their infantry re-done, including making plastic Aspect Warriors and a new model for the Avatar (he's so little...). IG needs new infantry kits, possibly new kits for older vehicles like the Sentinel and Chimera. 

2) The final two Chaos Cult Legions need to get a revamp. World Eaters and Emperor's Children need to get their own dedicated codices like the DG and TSons have now. 

 

After those two model line renews happen, then I could see a whole new army being introduced- whether that is something that already exists in fluff like Squats/Demiurg or something brand new doesn't really matter, but given that the last "brand new" Xenos army that happened was T'au, I don't see GW trying out an army that doesn't have at least some solid fluff background. I'm not against Squats at all, I just would like them to be something more than just space dwaves, even if there is a market for the space dwarf concept. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Lord_Ikka

[MegaVolt87]

I agree that other revamps of existing factions are likely, but GW plays relatively safe today. Squats would be a low effort win that would be welcomed by most and still "new" enough as a faction to introduce. I think you are putting a bit much faith into GW to take a risk for an outlandish new idea in 40k. AoS is the wild west for crazy town ideas for armies these days.

[NovemberIX]

 

 

That's a valid point, and I think that's where the the video game licensing and warhammer + come in. 

 

GW is scratching at a lot of the things they need to do stay relevant, but not with the same refinement of much older or bigger industries, so it's all a little bit sloppy. 

 

Take the video game licensing for instance - GW knew that the original deal with Relic brought a ton of people into tabletop through Dawn of War, but that was more by accident and Relic's efforts than GW. Fast forward out of the dark times, and THQ's collapse leaving the 40k license open for re-negotiation, and GW tries to replicate that magic by spreading the license around aggressively. 

 

Problem is, it wasn't really managed in any sort of serious way, and GW lacked the internal staff to assess video game developers and publishers for who would deliver, and we got a real scattergun of quality which, in many cases, likely hurt the brand more than helped it. 

 

We're seeing the quality of studios, and products, GW is licensing to on the video game front improve, but that's come with time and pain. ~

 

 

 

That's a really valid point I've been meaning to tangentially come back to, ignoring Warhammer+ for now (I'm hopeful, but that's a whole 'nother post to consider) I think GW has a great opportunity to start building a foundation and relationship with Gamers, including youngers ones as a whole. The IP and universe certainly allows for a wide variety of games and game styles, the issue is will the licenses ever reach a studio that can make a triple-A title that appeals to new comers and long time fans alike? As it stands right now the majority of their gaming offerings can best be described as Budget-Genre-Game with a 40K theme. Some are pretty good fun games, some are rougher but have great assets, but they all have that slight jank that says "I'm not as well developed as the games I'm based off of". 

 

As for how many these games are channeling new users to the tabletop I can't say, but it does seem to me the appeal in these games isn't their specific game loops (I mean seriously, Inquisitor is Diablo, Mechanicus is X-Com, Space Marine is Gears of War, Armageddon is Panzer General, and Dawn of War is C&C:RA / Company of Heroes /Warcraft 3/DOTA depending on the number) but in how the loops are used to explore the 40K universe in ways the tabletop doesn't. Which creates a flipside "problem" in that the cool details and stuff you poured over to make your build in Mechanicus or Inquisitor just don't exist in the codecii, or that there's nothing like the space marine terrain from Dawn of War for the table top. There's a massive lack of synergy between all these components that just sorta leaved primed and ready customers floating there forced to find their own hook into the hobby.

 

All that said, I think if GW can find a good partner, and is willing to look and refine the different gameplays they can explore, I think GW has the chance to make the kinda games that appeal to more than just an informed audience. I would hope at that point though, GW is making more from licensing and entertainment properties on the whole than just from the table top game. Allowing for a price adjustment that satisfies both GW and it's client base.

 

 

~

Had they stated that prices would have to increase as their beer is imported from mainland europe, and logistics simply forced a price increase once current stocks were depleted  then I would have understood and continued to use said company understanding that a price increase is inevitable, but to do it the first day after the pubs shut is opportunistic greed and left a sour taste, so now they've lost my £1200-1500 a year.

 

~

 

The models are generally outstanding, their paint selection is great, the core boxed sets are very good value generally and it's really not all bad, but, even for a luxury niche hobby, the value for money is plummeting.

 

Yeah the optics look bad, and I feel that's something GW isn't concerning themselves with, when they really should. No one wants to see their favorite provider of entertainment to struggle, but there comes a point when success can start to look a little like taking advantage. Especially in such a captive market.

 

 

The problem with that arguement is that you're ignoring the fact that aside from the memes and jokes, GW hasn't done anything that really focuses on nostalgia in a main way. Sisters aren't really nostalgic- with the high rate of female gamers/players having a female-only army is just good business sense (they are courting the female demographic that now can be a major spending force, unlike when the SoB were originally released). As far as stuff like the plastic T-hawk, squats, and Zoats go- those are all delegated to specialist games that are not a prime source of GW's profit. Blackstar Fortress, Aeronutica Imperialis, and even Necromunda are side projects for GW; they may make GW a decent profit, but they aren't the flagship product of the company in the way that 40k/AoS are. That's why we don't see GW releasing an entirely new line of Squats, as the old gamers buying for nostalgia won't spend nearly as much as new/competitive players buying the latest updated army.

 

I'm not sure how you don't see the focus on nostalgia, the first sisters model to be re-released was Cannoness Veridyan aka Sister Slaughter in Decemeber of 2016, after her success (added as permanent product) and the 2017 community survey where we basically begged for sisters back, we got Celestine and promises of a further product line. It wasn't new players pushing for that. I mean back in 2016 the only way to get sisters was to order them online, most new players aren't gonna buy into 40K like that. Ironically the only kits I have bought in the past year have been sisters, and that's to supplant the few metal models I own.

 

1990 might have been 30 years ago, but it's not that long ago, women have been gainfully employed and making their own purchasing decisions for a lot longer than sisters of battle have been a concept, I mean sure I know one of my female friends who wanted to play sisters, but my own not so empirical reasearch has led me to learn that other female friends prefer Tau, Orks, and Slaanesh while my wife really loves Nurgle. None of them were looking for an "all-female army" when they got introduced to 40K. It's mostly us longer term players that had any interest in older armies and units.  

 

Now weather or not Specialist games is their prime source of profit, specialist games is still part of GW as a whole, and thus part of their whole marketing plan. A lot of specialist games is based on older properties, monetizing things from their history, I don't see how that doesn't support the idea that GW is making bank off nostalgia. More to the point, if GW did finally release an official squats army, as long as it was reasonably priced (ya know, the reason for this thread) I'd buy into them. The problem comes when a box of troops costs double what it did 8 years ago, and you only get half the units. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

if they made a CoD 40k running around as a guardsmen or a cultist I'd totally play that Edited June 10, 2021 by Brother Tyler
Removed excessive and unnecessary quote

[MegaVolt87]

While nostalgia plays into what GW does to an extent, its not the only thing driving them for releases. Its just good business to revive past products like necromunda etc. Why make something from scratch when you can build off an existing foundation? Battlefleet Gothic and Epic revival would fit smartly into GW's modern specialist games. Warmaster is a bit more tricky, I think that would fit in better after the old world revival happens in specialist games. Mordhiem would be low on the list as we already have similar in the AoS setting via warcry/ cursed city etc. Gorkamorka? sure why not along with orks related releases. The real issue is continuing support for all this, though to be fair the initial releases do have enough in them to weather time between new releases. For example,Titanicus IMO had enough at release to have the release model it does now. GW's pricing of things like titanicus is what really stifles the uptake of them. GW is like those online sellers "price non negotiable, no low balls, I know what I have". People want to buy what you got GW, but too often won't because they don't see themselves getting their money's worth/ value. I think GW will keep specialist games open this time even if its not earning much, merely to maintain a presence in those markets to leech prospective players from similar competitor formats/ systems there. 

[jarms48]

I just saw the Australian pricing for the Infantry Squad and Gaunts Ghosts. $77 AUD for 10 Guardsmen, $1.5 per point. That’s frankly rediculous. A Leman Russ is $83 AUD, you need 30 Guardsmen to equal that in points.

[Dark Shepherd]

HH is different but the new box for that is looking like €250, dont think itll be bad value per se but might set more of a precedent for big marine boxes.

 

Things like a plastic Spartan could come separately with an eye watering price tag

[Valkyrion]

GW boxed sets are generally very fairly priced - even the start collecting/combat patrol boxes.

I think there were a few outliers - the Eldar set seemed a bit OTT but as I collect neither faction it didn't really register with me - but indomitus would have been good value at £125 each faction, let alone for both. The two previous HH boxes were only £90 IIRR, dark imperium and so on, so if the new HH box is indeed £200 then you can be sure you will be getting a lot of plastic for your money.

 

If a plastic Land Raider is £50 then you'd have to fancy the Spartan to be £75 when released separately, plus the new contemptor will surely be redemptor priced (£40), so even a conservative estimate of 4 x £35 tactical squad, a £35 terminator squad, two £20 HQ's and those vehicles gives you £330 at full price. Anything around the £200 mark represents exceedingly good value and, if it's not a limited run release, will make entry into 30k much more palatable. 

[jarms48]

Oh man, I just saw that Orks are getting a complete refresh on their Ork Boys kit. That's just another kick in the teeth for Guard. A lot of people were going GW made a good decision by adding an upgrade sprue and avoiding invalidating everyone's infantry.

 

Well... They did it to Orks and they look amazing. Why couldn't we have gotten some better looking and appropriately scaled Cadians? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Oh man, I just saw that Orks are getting a complete refresh on their Ork Boys kit. That's just another kick in the teeth for Guard. A lot of people were going GW made a good decision by adding an upgrade sprue and avoiding invalidating everyone's infantry.

 

Well... They did it to Orks and they look amazing. Why couldn't we have gotten some better looking and appropriately scaled Cadians?

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

[jarms48]

 

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

 

 

The "new kit" IE the old kit with the upgrade sprue added is already on sale on GW's website. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

 

The "new kit" IE the old kit with the upgrade sprue added is already on sale on GW's website.

thanks captain obvious

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

The "new kit" IE the old kit with the upgrade sprue added is already on sale on GW's website.

thanks captain obvious

 

To me, its a bit more complex. A guard re-fresh could go in the direction of box loadout= codex data sheet like with DG. So , it could also be multi unit from a single box, thus eliminating the need for upgrade sprues, just box it up at extra $$$ even if its content not needed by the customer. No point managing extra inventory/ stock when you can put it all in one box + charge through the nose for it. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

The "new kit" IE the old kit with the upgrade sprue added is already on sale on GW's website.

thanks captain obvious

To me, its a bit more complex. A guard re-fresh could go in the direction of box loadout= codex data sheet like with DG. So , it could also be multi unit from a single box, thus eliminating the need for upgrade sprues, just box it up at extra $$$ even if its content not needed by the customer. No point managing extra inventory/ stock when you can put it all in one box + charge through the nose for it.

they literally just released the upgrade sprue. No way they'd spend time and money on that as a stop gap for a few months, and then release a whole new kit with all those special weapons in it

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

 

id hold on until our codex is revealed before complaining.

 

What I can see happening now is infantry squads get revamped, but there's no special weapons in the kit to force us to buy the upgrade sprue with special weapons in it.

That seems perfectly in line with GW's business model.

The "new kit" IE the old kit with the upgrade sprue added is already on sale on GW's website.

thanks captain obvious

To me, its a bit more complex. A guard re-fresh could go in the direction of box loadout= codex data sheet like with DG. So , it could also be multi unit from a single box, thus eliminating the need for upgrade sprues, just box it up at extra $$$ even if its content not needed by the customer. No point managing extra inventory/ stock when you can put it all in one box + charge through the nose for it.

they literally just released the upgrade sprue. No way they'd spend time and money on that as a stop gap for a few months, and then release a whole new kit with all those special weapons in it

 

 

I think you are over estimating the expense of such a minor upgrade to an old kit. Also I never said anything about a timeframe. It could be a few months or few years for new guard. I was merely considering HOW a new guard range would be done and its subsequent pricing model. 

[sarabando]

GWs biggest physical asset is their storefronts and getting kids to drag their parents in and get them hooked on that first dose of plastic crack. Personally i feel that we are getting to the point where parents are going to take one look at walk out, when they see that a box is half the price of a games console, has to be build and painted themselves and then learn the rules etc i cant really see the kids of tomorrow and there parents falling into it and by that point i think there will be too much bad blood between GW and the older fans. So unless they start releasing new stuff that is genuinly new not just replacement and expanded space marines to tempt them back, the GW mega bubble is going to pop. Especially with the wispers of the R word floating around the finacial sectors.

[jarms48]

GWs biggest physical asset is their storefronts and getting kids to drag their parents in and get them hooked on that first dose of plastic crack. Personally i feel that we are getting to the point where parents are going to take one look at walk out, when they see that a box is half the price of a games console, has to be build and painted themselves and then learn the rules etc i cant really see the kids of tomorrow and there parents falling into it and by that point i think there will be too much bad blood between GW and the older fans. So unless they start releasing new stuff that is genuinly new not just replacement and expanded space marines to tempt them back, the GW mega bubble is going to pop. Especially with the whispers of the R word floating around the financial sectors.

 

This is so true. The more expensive they make the hobby, the bigger the opportunity cost is. When a Start Collecting box costs as much as a new gaming console, a bicycle, a scooter, etc. It's just going to limit the amount of younger players into the hobby. 

 

That's just one box too. Then as you said, there's rulebooks, paints, painting and crafting supplies, the fact that you often need a minimum of 2 or more Start Collecting boxes to make a functional 500 point army. It's just getting far too crazy. 

 

I've been looking into it and I can get a decent 3D printer for $300 Australian. That's less than 4 boxes of the "updated" Guardsmen.

[XeonDragon]

I think GW needs to take a page out of the music industry in the early 2000s. They realised if the sold individual songs for 99c on itunes, they'd remain in business and most people would purchase songs instead of pirating them. 

 

GW needs to start selling STL files for OOP models. I also think they could make a killing by allowing FLGS to print-on-demand OOP models for a fixed proportion of the sale price. Those two things alone would result in steady income streams from IP they already own.

[AenarIT]

I know that when supply (covid restrictions, brexit, import issues from China, ...) is not able to meet demand (people stuck at home with spare time and spare money), prices can be easily raised by a monopolistic firm to lock in extra profits and GW financial statements show how well they've been doing.

Imho, it was a great short term move but it risks being a stupid long term one.

 

Now prices are very high (especially more so for overseas customers, let alone those millionaires in AUS and NZ). And GW prices don't ever come down, at best they remain constant. 

The thing is that prices at these level risk putting off a lot of prospective customers (kids) and turning veterans to other solutions (3D printing, alternative models) or out of the hobby altogether. 

I know for sure that if I hadn't large armies already, with the current prices I wouldn't have come back into the hobby when I did a few years ago. I was able to do it by carefully looking for good deals (big bundles sold at discount, from an independent retailer to get a 25% off on top of the bargain price). Now the same products I've bought cost a good 20-40% more on average and big bundles are less common and more expensive. 
Start collecting boxes went up in price, new combat patrol boxes cost even more, big apocalypse bundles are a thing of the past, troop+transport bundles don't exist anymore, big christmas bundles consistently went up in price and so on.

I get that: products sell very well so they decide to raise prices, as they have no issues in moving them. But for how long? 

 

Example: when I see €40 for five Flayed Ones, I'm put off. Even considering that's €30 with the independent retailer discount, that's simply too much compared to what I'm willing to pay. Same thing for €50 for 5 Heavy Intercessors. And I could be ascribed to the "whale" category, with more than 20k points across 4 armies. 

Are they sitting on tons of those kits unsold in their warehouses? Of course not, but I can't be the only one that decided against buying a couple (or several) new kits just because of the price. 

Now I simply ignore those kits or if I decide I really want to put some in my list I'll 3D print some alternative models for a tenth of the price and call it a day.

 

As a newly converted 3D printing evangelist, imho GW should think of some way to embrace the new technology or at least adapt its business model.

Sticking the head in the sand, pretending 3D printing doesn't exist or simply not allowing unofficial models in official events is not going to be enough.

I still like plastic kits, easy to put together and sturdy once assembled with plastic glue. But I like them more than 3D printed ones only to a certain extent and the price is definitely a big factor in this.

 

I have no idea on possible solutions but I'd start by not increasing prices for a while and releasing new kits at a slightly lower price point than the most recent releases. Recurrent big bundles that offer more miniatures at a discount could also help a lot. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by AenarIT

[sarabando]

I think the GW / music industry comparison is fair. And the idea of GW selling STLs of out dated minis is spot on a great idea. If they want their Warhammer plus service to be a success.then this would be a great way to incentives it.

 

Survival of the fittest is the one who is able to adapt to changing environment quickest and in that sense GW is well behind the curve

[Doghouse]

I have always been an unabashed diehard 40k bits only kind of guy but recently I've seen much nicer and cheaper mins elsewhere. Prices are getting out of hand as far as I am concerned and add on top of that monopose multiples, fomo and battling against scalpers as a customer I'd rather go elsewhere these days. Really is not worth it to me anymore and I have been a hardcore fan for nearly four decades.

[Ahzek451]

My purchasing habit for this hobby has certainly taken a noticeable hit. The pricing being an important factor, but I have to admit there are other factors at play too. Getting older, I look at my mountain of shame and realize that I will not realistically get to all the side armies I want. So I decided to limit my focus to 3 armies max. And even with this, my absolute favorites are just 2(necrons and Thousand sons) and with this dramatic change in spending habits I still find myself not being able to collect as much as I used to. I usually tend to collect every option available, but I had to stop myself at the Flayed ones. Gorgeous models...but the line has officially been drawn for me. No spite or hate here...just logically I don't feel like purchasing it based on what they choose to charge. If I am desperate for flayed ones, There are a ton of resources for cheaper conversions. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Ahzek451

[The Yncarne]

I think the question is when does GW intellectual property income in other mediums surpass their miniature games? If miniature games decline as a hobby in general, then does it matter if GW fails to grow the hobby? Why not continue to raise prices on miniature product if other mediums provide more profit?

Personally, I don’t think one company can sustain a hobby of tabletop miniature games. I think in 5 years 40k as we know it today will largely be different in terms of model count, but have an ever increasing number of faction options.

Let GW be GW and let the market decide.

Edited June 20, 2021 by The Blood Raven

[Doghouse]

That is a possibility where the IP outgrows it's original roots. I'm not sure how likely it is or the time scale but definitely possible.