Thoughts on Kill Team 2

[Arkhanist]

They seem to have come up with some interesting ideas for balancing disparate teams. For Custodes, you take 2 fire teams; a fire team can be 2 custodes, or 5 sisters of silence. Let's say you do take 2+2 custodes vs 7+7 guard.

 

The custodes have 4 actions each; the guard only 2. That said, the custodes models can only take specific actions once per turn same as everyone, but they have a 1cp ploy that lets them all take shoot, and move twice in a turn. So that's now 8 shots vs 14, (plus the custodes can use their extra actions to get to melee) and the custodes shots are higher quality, though plasma and melta obviously will be useful - custodes have 18W vs a guardsman's 7W and a 2+ save vs 5+; there's no plasma spam anymore due to team limits. Normal Guard are activated 2 at a time (Group Activation of 2), specialists one at a time. But there's at least 3 normal guard per squad x2, so 3 activations instead of 6 for them; so the guard have 11 activations vs the custodes 4.

 

For the custodes, if they're in engagement range, they can't be shot at, but do defend themselves in melee. If not, when it's your turn to activate someone, if you haven't got anyone left, you get to take a free overwatch action shot instead (one per turn per model that's outside engagement). So for custodes, in the latter half of the turn when the guard player is going through his 7 remaining activations, he gets up to 4 extra overwatch shots (at -1 to hit). So 12 shooting actions max vs 14 max.

 

And one suspects the guard will start dying pretty quickly. On the other hand, the custodes are really going to have to hustle to score objectives spread out over the board, and chipping down even one custodes is really going to hurt as that's 25% of your actions gone. So in a straight up firefight, I think the custodes have the advantage; but the guard can definitely overwhelm them in detail if they spread out too far and can't support each other - and if they don't spread out at all, then the guard can just play the mission objectives.

 

Obviously we'll have to see how it plays out, but on paper I think 4 custodes vs 14 guard would actually be a really interesting match up. Shades of the Gaunt's Ghosts team vs a handful of chaos marines in Traitor General.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Antarius]

Indeed.

Not disagreeing with you at all here, Arkhanist, I'm just doing some more riffing off the Custodes vs Guard example because they were raised earlier in the thread as (assumedly) the most egregious example people could come up with of something supposedly unbalanced.

 

Now, I'm pretty sure there will be some balance issues with a game like this, but I would caution against assuming that it is possible to "prove" the imbalances by simply adding up the amount of dice on each side, because it just doesn't seem to be that kind of game. Honestly, it's not even a super reliable metric for games like 40K that are much closer to a "line up your troops and shoot at each other" scenario because most games don't play like an excel sheet in practice.

 

On the one hand, yes, weight of numbers will probably mean a lot (as it should), but on the other hand, in a game that is likely to focus a lot on cover, denying line of sight, achieving specific objectives, and generally just being at the right place in the right time, having more activations is likely going to be powerful too - and not just because the individual model can pump out more shots.
For example, in Warcry (and, to alesser extent, Necromunda) I kinda think I'd be happy to trade half of my models for more activations on the remaining models, simply because it would make it easier to take specific enemies out and achieve mobility-based objectives, as well as denying enemies the opportunity to attack my models.

[HandsWithLegs]

I get why people are so bummed out about the compendium, but at this point after reading through all the content inside from posts online I'm back to excited again. The list building does have some options and choice still, especially with the roster system (For example, space marines can pick from 4 different teams before any given match), but the pregame choices seem fantastic. The equipment is fun and flavorful, and I can't wait to try it out, and a lot of the strategic ploys are really cool, and really change how you play turn-to-turn. the player places terrain with the barricades sounds super cool too! I encourage people to keep an open mind with this system, and at least give it a chance, I think this could be something really great, despite its flaws

[Squark]

I get why people are so bummed out about the compendium, but at this point after reading through all the content inside from posts online I'm back to excited again. The list building does have some options and choice still, especially with the roster system (For example, space marines can pick from 4 different teams before any given match)

I keep seeing people push this as some sort of selling point, and it's rather baffling. Do people not realize that's how Kill Team 2018 worked as well?

[Master Sheol]

The Astartes list is insulting

They made a total mess with that and It's Not even balanced

The other factions being made of two fireteams are slightly better

 

Very few lists are on par of the game born killteams (guard vets and kommandos) due

 

This book is not worth the money IMHO

And it's sad cause it's the only way you could try the game if you are not interested in Octarius box

[Master Sheol]

 

I get why people are so bummed out about the compendium, but at this point after reading through all the content inside from posts online I'm back to excited again. The list building does have some options and choice still, especially with the roster system (For example, space marines can pick from 4 different teams before any given match)

I keep seeing people push this as some sort of selling point, and it's rather baffling. Do people not realize that's how Kill Team 2018 worked as well?

And KT2018 let you pick up model by model from the roster and not squad by squad

KT built on squad basis was the Old one before Shadow War Armageddon that everyone hated but now in the new KT it's good because of reasons ;)

[Brother Tyler]

 

I get why people are so bummed out about the compendium, but at this point after reading through all the content inside from posts online I'm back to excited again. The list building does have some options and choice still, especially with the roster system (For example, space marines can pick from 4 different teams before any given match)

I keep seeing people push this as some sort of selling point, and it's rather baffling. Do people not realize that's how Kill Team 2018 worked as well?

 

But it didn't. Kill Team 2018 allowed you to build a kill team with individual models as the building blocks. Kill Team 2021 adjusts that to fire teams or kill teams as the building blocks. Both allow for a degree of customization, but Kill Team 2018 allows for considerably more customization. Generally speaking, you can use the Kill Team 2018 rules to replicate just about any kill teams that are (will be) legal by the Kill Team 2021 rules. The Kill Team 2021 rules, however, neither those in the upcoming compendium nor those that will replace them later, can't necessarily be used to replicate the range of kill teams that were legal in the full body of Kill Team 2018 rules.

 

After having viewed the review of the Compendium, I'm much less averse to the change to the fire team/kill team building block approach. It clearly limits the freedom and customizability that players are accustomed to. It will be much easier for a limited body of net lists to dominate. However, changing to this approach makes sense to me from a "realism" perspective for the majority of factions. There are some factions, however, where I can see choosing at the individual level might make sense. For the most part, however, those aren't really represented in the Kill Team game except via homegrown rules (e.g., the Inquisition and Rogue Traders). There are exceptional units like the Last Chancers, though, that stand out as the types of (sub-)factions for which the fire team/kill team building block approach might not work.

 

The Compendium being a bridging effort between what we have in Kill Team 2018 and what we will eventually have in Kill Team 2021, I'm much less worried about the change now that I know more about it. I prefer the previous "by model" method, but I don't think that the "by team" method will be terrible. I'm still holding off on judging things until I get a much better idea (after reading the rules and seeing some more bespoke faction rules), however.

[HandsWithLegs]

The Astartes list is insulting

They made a total mess with that and It's Not even balanced

The other factions being made of two fireteams are slightly better

 

Very few lists are on par of the game born killteams (guard vets and kommandos) due

 

This book is not worth the money IMHO

And it's sad cause it's the only way you could try the game if you are not interested in Octarius box

IDK where you're hearing that it's not balanced, pretty much all the reviews from people who have played the game say that all the teams are surprisingly well balanced, including both the space marines, veteran guardsmen, and kommandos

[Lysimachus]

I think the silliest thing about the Astartes Compendium list is that they didnt simply use the same process as they did for DG and TS, i.e. make fire teams of 2 Marines but in the first one you get to add a Leader. That way you could at least do a minimal amount of mixing and matching; 3 Intercessors and 2 Assault Intercessors/Incursors or 5 Scouts, etc, etc.

 

The mechanism is already in place and I just can't understand why they haven't used it...

[lansalt]

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

[excelite]

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

 

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

[Lysimachus]

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

Quite possibly, but that just makes it more irritating that they know the Compendium is sub par and are already planning how to fix it.

 

 

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

I dont think being able to mix Intercessors and Reivers/Incursors/whatever in a 5 man team is a 'low effort copy paste', it's not like it would make them remotely the same as, for example, 3 DG + 8 Poxwalkers...

[excelite]

 

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

Quite possibly, but that just makes it more irritating that they know the Compendium is sub par and are already planning how to fix it.

 

 

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

I dont think being able to mix Intercessors and Reivers/Incursors/whatever in a 5 man team is a 'low effort copy paste', it's not like it would make them remotely the same as, for example, 3 DG + 8 Poxwalkers...

Yes that case is different, but for example going 3+2 intercessors would be about the same as DG.

 

DG basically has two unit types as of now, marines have a boatload to choose from, with the downside that they have to be 5 of the same kind.

 

I think both ways have their pros and cons.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

The Astartes list is insulting

They made a total mess with that and It's Not even balanced

The other factions being made of two fireteams are slightly better

 

Very few lists are on par of the game born killteams (guard vets and kommandos) due

 

This book is not worth the money IMHO

And it's sad cause it's the only way you could try the game if you are not interested in Octarius box

IDK where you're hearing that it's not balanced, pretty much all the reviews from people who have played the game say that all the teams are surprisingly well balanced, including both the space marines, veteran guardsmen, and kommandos

How can be 5 men primaris fire teams with nearly zero options balanced to a 6 men tacticals fireteam with full options?

Just because the primaris have 1 wound more this doesnt balance them with the options the tacticals have

And it's one wound more on 11 that tacticals have so it's less an edge

 

If primaris fireteams were 6 men like the tactical ones who have access to more options the insulting single fireteam thing could be reworked to two fireteams like they due for CSM

 

But they decided to messo things up and the Marines are now nearly useless

[Master Sheol]

 

 

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

Quite possibly, but that just makes it more irritating that they know the Compendium is sub par and are already planning how to fix it.

 

 

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

I dont think being able to mix Intercessors and Reivers/Incursors/whatever in a 5 man team is a 'low effort copy paste', it's not like it would make them remotely the same as, for example, 3 DG + 8 Poxwalkers...

Yes that case is different, but for example going 3+2 intercessors would be about the same as DG.

 

DG basically has two unit types as of now, marines have a boatload to choose from, with the downside that they have to be 5 of the same kind.

 

I think both ways have their pros and cons.

Were are the pros in the SM list? ;) Edited August 20, 2021 by Master Sheol

[lansalt]

 

Just because the primaris have 1 wound more this doesnt balance them with the options the tacticals have

And it's one wound more on 11 that tacticals have so it's less an edge

 

If primaris fireteams were 6 men like the tactical ones who have access to more options the insulting single fireteam thing could be reworked to two fireteams like they due for CSM

 

But they decided to messo things up and the Marines are now nearly useless

 

Primaris fireteams are a mixed bunch. Assault and heavy intercessors seem weak, but Infiltrators/Incursors look strong. They get way better bolters and equipment to buy/stratagems than tacticals or scouts.

Also, the players are supposed to use rosters, so marines would use different "squads" against different factions.

 

Personally, playing with friends I will just homebrew small changes like mixing 1-1 assault and normal intercessors in the same fireteam (same with Eldar guardians and storm guardians)

[excelite]

 

 

 

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

Quite possibly, but that just makes it more irritating that they know the Compendium is sub par and are already planning how to fix it.

 

 

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

I dont think being able to mix Intercessors and Reivers/Incursors/whatever in a 5 man team is a 'low effort copy paste', it's not like it would make them remotely the same as, for example, 3 DG + 8 Poxwalkers...

Yes that case is different, but for example going 3+2 intercessors would be about the same as DG.

 

DG basically has two unit types as of now, marines have a boatload to choose from, with the downside that they have to be 5 of the same kind.

 

I think both ways have their pros and cons.

Were are the pros in the SM list? ;)

You can choose a fireteam after the mission and the opponent is known, so it’s convenient to choose the one that suits those best… from a roster of 3-4 different ones… to stick with DG, it’s s either 5 marines or a marine poxwslker mix…

 

Due to more options you can choose objectives that are more custom to your and your opponents fireteam

[Mandragola]

I really like how they’ve got the two starter kill teams set up, where pretty much everyone is a specialist. That looks like great fun. I’m curious to see how they’ll manage that with other factions, where there just isn’t that degree of customisation on the sprues.

 

On the whole I think I like the fact that you’re generally using a “proper” squad or two. I like how now we’ll be sending a squad of reivers or intercessors as our kill teams, rather than a collection of sergeants, Exarchs or whatever.

 

Buying equipment before each game is an interesting approach. I wonder if we’ll see that working properly, with mission-specific wargear favoured, or if instead we’ll tend to take a generic load-out every game.

 

As a marine player I think it’s a shame Eliminators don’t feature. They seem like pretty much the Perfect model to be in small engagements like this. I guess it would have been tricky to ask people to field four of them though.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

 

 

I guess because they're going to release SM boxes that will be more complete than the Compedium. Just like Octarius Veteran Guard vs. Compedium IG. Maybe "Kill team: Veteran Space Marines" or something like that.

Quite possibly, but that just makes it more irritating that they know the Compendium is sub par and are already planning how to fix it.

 

 

And if I may add: I really like that the factions are not just a low effort copy&paste same tactics with a different optics.

Sure, that’s not for everybody, but I enjoy it.

I dont think being able to mix Intercessors and Reivers/Incursors/whatever in a 5 man team is a 'low effort copy paste', it's not like it would make them remotely the same as, for example, 3 DG + 8 Poxwalkers...

Yes that case is different, but for example going 3+2 intercessors would be about the same as DG.

 

DG basically has two unit types as of now, marines have a boatload to choose from, with the downside that they have to be 5 of the same kind.

 

I think both ways have their pros and cons.

Were are the pros in the SM list? ;)

You can choose a fireteam after the mission and the opponent is known, so it’s convenient to choose the one that suits those best… from a roster of 3-4 different ones… to stick with DG, it’s s either 5 marines or a marine poxwslker mix…

 

Due to more options you can choose objectives that are more custom to your and your opponents fireteam

If i will find some in my gaming friends interested to play new KT i think i will ho with the only good Astartes fireteams

Tacticals

Scouts

Deathwatch

I find all the primaris fireteams not good enough IMHO

[MithrilForge]

Even though there are Negative comments about Marines (i honestly have not looked at them yet, Xeno player here )  I am really looking fwd to this game,

I realise that the compendium is an expensive stop gap (at least I'm going halves in it) as i foresee each team will get bespoke rules and maybe new models to bring them out of the Compendium and up to par with the likes of the Kommando's & Krieger's (i'm going to guess they will be more powerful/flexible to begin with...GW wants us to buy them remember .) 

I know some of you will always be negative about this because you keep thinking of KT 2018....if you don't like the new KT i guess you can keep playing the old one ...,I am looking at this in a new light and throwing the old KT rules/ideas out the window, i don't want to start judging the new game based on what the old was....Some times you gotta move on  

 

Mithril

[INKS]

Really love the rules and changes to kill team. It'll be even better once more Teams get their own special load out and rules.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm loving what I've seen to date. I read a lot of negativity about the Compendium but now that I've watched the Yt breakdown I'm pretty happy about most things.

 

I can see a few fire teams like Primaris, Necrons and Eldar suffering due to their inate 'genericness', but that's always been their shtick so it is what it is.

I can see a couple of real winners in the power stakes, but I play social only so don't care.

 

I have a KT from nearly every faction so I'm not overly effected by any being OP or UP, they all get played regardless.

 

The different mix ups on different terrain with the alternate actions system is what makes this game more fun than 40k for me; it's hopefully still going to be a game of playing the player and less of a 'my list auto wins' or 'he who gets turn one wins'.

[Stealth_Hobo]

Here's a battle report from Goonhammer that I found interesting: https://www.goonhammer.com/reivers-rubricae-kill-team-battle-report/

For me the main point from the report: "This game rules. I’ve seen a reasonable number of complaints online about there being less customisation in new KT compared to KT2018, and what I think that misses is how vastly bigger the number of meaningful and interesting things that happen during the actual game is. Starting right at the Orders you choose in deployment and the Scouting Phase, every decision you make feels like it has a real impact on your chances of victory, and the back and forth during each turn feels very dynamic."

Making meaningful, tactical decisions during game, and not just in list-building, is what I look for in a game like this. I also play Warcry with vanilla chaos warbands and like the game just fine, so I'm not really bothered about the lack of customisation. Sometimes generic teams can be ok if the gameplay is not samey. Just my two cents. 

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

Buying equipment before each game is an interesting approach. I wonder if we’ll see that working properly, with mission-specific wargear favoured, or if instead we’ll tend to take a generic load-out every game.

As a marine player I think it’s a shame Eliminators don’t feature. They seem like pretty much the Perfect model to be in small engagements like this. I guess it would have been tricky to ask people to field four of them though.

Pardon my lack of information, but "buying equipment before each game" sounds like an additional step to building a team. Wouldn't having equipment added to model's datasheet be faster and easier? It seems like another unnecessary step added to game.

 

Don't worry about eliminators. GW will probably add them back in some future new kill team box set. :p

 

Overall, I am interested in this box set. The new rules sound easier to explain to new players. More players playing the game the more enjoyment there is. I am holding off on the compedium as I do not see the value in it. I don't have every single kill team faction from KT2018 so I can wait patientlly for the ones I want.

 

BTW does anyone here have a rough summary of turn sequence for KT2021.... a sort of cheat sheet when playing the game? BGG had a cheat sheets for KT2018. I saw BGG with new kill team 2021 entry, but file section was empty at the time.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Mechanicus_Adept

[Brother Tyler]

 

Buying equipment before each game is an interesting approach. I wonder if we’ll see that working properly, with mission-specific wargear favoured, or if instead we’ll tend to take a generic load-out every game.

...

Pardon my lack of information, but "buying equipment before each game" sounds like an additional step to building a team. Wouldn't having equipment added to model's datasheet be faster and easier? It seems like another unnecessary step added to game.

 

...

 

Buying equipment before the game sounds like a great aspect of the game. In KT 2018 you would build a command roster and would customize by taking individuals tailored to the mission and opponent. With KT 2021 you are limited to fire teams, but some level of flexibility is preserved through the ability to change their equipment (within the limits of the unit options). It's a great way to offset the shift to fire teams. The overall time to compose your kill team in KT 2021 is probably the same as it was in KT 2018. With the shift to no points, it's actually probably faster. The only time where this option might take longer is when a unit has a diverse array of options. In most cases, however, units only have a few options so it won't take long at all to figure out which ones are preferable for the situation at hand. I have no doubt that people will quickly figure out which options are optimal under specific conditions, making this process even quicker once a little experience is built up; and the ability to share this information quickly over the Internet means that the collective experience will quickly overcome the learning curve.