Does Warhammer being British make it better?

[tangoalphatwo]

I know this is kinda off topic, but I wanna know everyone on here’s opinion on the subject.

 

So, I’m American, and I kinda love how Grimdark is distinctly British. What is it about the Brits that make them so good at dystopian future? Look at Black Mirror. The British episodes were so good. So good! The American episodes sucked. Like horribly so. Look at the anti-communism dystopian novels from the 20th century. 1984. Absolutely British. The American equivalent is Fahrenheit 451. A great novel, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not dark. It’s stupid happy dystopian.

 

So what is it that makes you guys so good at “dark” fiction? I love it!

 

P.S. I don’t mean to cause derision. This is meant as a light hearted “hey cousins, you guys are cool” thread.

[MARK0SIAN]

It’s the weather, when there’s never any hope for a sunny bank holiday, authors can channel that experience :)

[Arkhanist]

A lot of grimdark has come about due to politics too. 11 years of Thatcher spawned a *lot* of dystopian fiction, for example. Both world wars cost Britain much, and the great depression, leading to dark fiction.

 

As some Americans look back to the founding fathers and a puritan society, so some Brits look back at empire and the victorian era as a golden age, and want to recreate it in spirit - a dark and brutal time for many, with disease, poverty, stifling morals (in word if not deed), parochialism and exploitation of others - rich material to imagine a brutal future society.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Scammel]

I've always had a pet theory that the British experience of the first half of the twentieth century contributed heavily to the wealth of semi-satirical dystopian fiction in the latter half of the same century, in the sense that the UK endured an 'optimum' (and I use the word in a very limited sense) degree of hardship without ever suffering real, enduring humiliation or the despondency that would make jokes about soviet space fash hit too close to home. I suspect Brits find it easy to create nightmarish-but-silly future realities (2000AD, Red Dwarf) because Britain was never seriously troubled by a homegrown movement of that ilk, and jokes about Hitler et al come easily when you beat him without suffering his worst attentions.

 

Also, I've never thought of 40k as being actually satirical; rather, it pokes fun at attempts at meaningful satire. Warhammer takes serious commentary - such as Starship Troopers - and posits the notion that, actually, it looks really fun to be a Space Marine. 40k just can't look at sincere satire with a straight face, and again, I suspect it's because the UK had a turbulent-but-unbowed experience of the early 1900s. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Scammel

[Dark Shepherd]

Hey 1984 was inspired by Russian treachery in Spain so its not that British :)

 

I would say to the bigger point its from a sense of dismay at powerful unimpeachable institutions, decline of a corrupt empire, and a sense of you have to keep calm and carry on in a bad way

 

That and gallows humour of eg naming a giant ork after Maggie Thatcher

[Closet Skeleton]

What little I've read of Stanislav Lem's comedic works makes Douglas Adams feel like a lazy hack so it may just be the language barrier that makes British satire sound comparatively smart to Americans.

 

As satire goes the Simpsons holds up better today than pretty much anything my country made at the same time. America is also pretty good at ruining its own shows by extending them, ruining foriegn shows is hardly a challenge.

 

Look at the anti-communism dystopian novels from the 20th century. 1984. Absolutely British. The American equivalent is Fahrenheit 451. A great novel, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not dark. It’s stupid happy dystopian.

 

Can't get into politics here but those are not both 'anti-communist' novels. 1984 is about totalitarian authoritarianism in a broad sense, drawing inspiration from both far right and far left movements (as well as just working for the BBC), while Fahrenheit 451 is specifically about American individualist consumerism and the potential dangers of a mass media that seeks only to over-saturate and 'entertain' without caring about informing or educated its audience. They're both pretty self critical, 1984 being written by a socialist and 451 being written by a pro private enterprise TV writer.

 

Fahrenheit 451 is about how a population can be so overwhelmed with bad and trivial information that they get nuked to oblivion without realising they're even in a serious war. The shock ending without any real sense of impending dread is kind of neccesary. Its no less prescient to today than the over-used buzzword that 'Orwellian' has become (that level of meaninglessness is in itself pretty 'Bradburian').

 

 

 

Also, I've never thought of 40k as being actually satirical; rather, it pokes fun at attempts at meaningful satire. Warhammer takes serious commentary - such as Starship Troopers - and posits the notion that, actually, it looks really fun to be a Space Marine. 40k just can't look at sincere satire with a straight face, and again, I suspect it's because the UK had a turbulent-but-unbowed experience of the early 1900s. 

Of course its satire, there's nothing about the definition of that word that means it has to be deep or insightful. Most satire is just soothing tripe that pretends to be aware of things that its actually brushing away with a chuckle and shrug.

 

Starship Troopers isn't serious commentary. The book is just a young adult adventure novel with some speculative elements about Swiss national service but for an entire planet combining in unsettling ways with the author's gung ho Americanism and the movie is just a guy who couldn't finish the book making an ironic version of gung ho American adventure stories. There's nothing deep about pointing out that if Rambo was more WASP and had a cool black coat his films would have been popular in Nazi Germany.

 

There's a legitimate reading of the book that Rico is badly informed and mislead by his superior officers but that kind of relies on taking the fact that the book is missing a lot of depth and assuming that to be part of an intentional message that was never claimed by the author.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[Orange Knight]

I think British media and fiction can often be a lot more raw and/or satirical. This is partly inspired by the culture and history of the nation.

 

Often US based media, from TV comedy to a blockbuster movie can feel glossy or fake. Of course there are exceptions to this, and America has produced a lot of quality sci-fi that went on to inspire many elements of Warhammer 40k.

[MegaVolt87]

I wouldn't say better, more like different. Taste is subjective, American adaptations of British entertainment are more often miss more than hits due to the culture differences in their attempt to cater to an American audience. Its easy to port 1:1 UK content to the commonwealth countries like Australia in comparison. 

[redmapa]

European sensibilities in general are what made 40k be what it is today, its in the same vein as the Heavy Metal magazine and Judge Dredd, this absurdly oppressive and ultraviolent sci fi where everything sucks and the cruelty goes into cartoonish levels but played straight. Its a very different take from American sci fi which is more, in my opinion, bright and hopeful. I dont know what 40k made by Americans would look like but I doubt they would've continued with the aesthetic of Heavy Metal and 70s/80s dark sci fi, Europeans continued that aesthetic line and an example is Jodorowsky's works specially the Metabarons series whereas in American comics and sci fi no one really picked it up, Star Trek and Star Wars set the tone for American sci fi and it couldnt be different from the roots of 40k and what it became.

[tangoalphatwo]

Skel, I should have stated anti-communism era novels, to be fair.

 

Though, I would love to discuss the actual implications of both Blair’s views on Communism and Stalinism Russia, and the difference between democratic socialism and communism, or even communism and Communism, as well as atheism (Blair’s own claim) or just theology in general… as those are area’s I love to study, learn more about, and share what I know!

 

But forums, or even DMs never lead to productive outcomes. That said, if you’re ever in the states or I’m ever over there, I would love to grab a beer at a bar or pub respectively, and discuss!

[tangoalphatwo]

 

P.S. To be fair. There were a lot of pro-communism novels in that same era too! Ha.

[Scribe]

It's an interesting question.

 

Between 40K, Moorcock, Moore, and Gaiman, Tolkien... that's a lot of my youth tied up there.

[Lucien Eilam]

I think you would find a similar vibe somewhere in the fiction of much of the Old World really. It’s just that the English language has the greatest reach in popular culture. It’s only so distinctly British from an Anglocentric perspective.

 

40k’s international success probably would have been more limited if it was originally published in Finnish, Hungarian or Russian, for example, but there’s no shortage of cynicism, bleak satire and black comedy in the corpus of those languages. While I don’t think any British director can claim to have captured the funny side of authoritarian violence better than, say, Paul Verhoeven.

 

As grimdark as 80s Britain was, I’d be surprised if Thatcher truly inspired more dystopian fiction than, say, Honecker. But to the best of my knowledge, nobody in East Germany at the time ever thought to express themselves through the medium of miniature Orks.

 

As a relatively young nation, on a sustained run as the world’s richest and most powerful, I think the US may often have tended toward a more optimistic, upbeat take on things, certainly through the 80s under Reagan. Even in the midst of Cold War paranoia and the struggle of the civil rights movement, it’s probably easier to develop a utopian vision of the future if you grow up while your country is literally putting men on the Moon.

[Domhnall]

Does Warhammer being British make it better?

 

Yes. 

Thread can be closed now 

 

Serious answer though, just based on UK and US fiction (be it books, TV, or Cinema) because that's what I have most experience with. Other posts here also touch on these ideas, so this is my take on much of the same thing. 

 

A very basic difference I've noticed between UK and US dystopia (generalisation, so not all are like this), is that US dystopia has a small glimmer of hope, of things could be better if we all work together. UK dystopia is more it's all gone down the pan, and no amount of work will stop it, but by jove we're jolly well going to make the most of it until then old bean. 

 

It possibly plays into the mindset of the people as a whole. The US is still a young country and still has that optimism of a young person with hopes and dreams to change the world. The UK on the other hand is quite a bit older (but nowhere near the oldest!) so has been there, done that, and been worn down by experience and realised dreams are for the young. It's just biding it's time till retirement and hopefully things will be better then, but probably won't be. 

 

We do find it easier to take the michael out of ourselves and misery, so that helps too. 

Think of comics. The early comics were quite optimistic, but as time has passed, and those comic readers get older, more dystopian comic series become popular: watchmen, The Boys, Spawn etc. As we get older, that youthful optimism diminishes, more realistic 'dark and gritty' becomes more appealing. Works for individuals as well as people as a whole.

 

Edit: forgot to add in conclusion.

 

So 40k works well from the perspective that everything is bad, and the end is inevitable, because it gives us a sense of superiority when we were younger and got into the hobby (most people here probably got into it when young) that we can do better than let this happen, but also allows the story to continue, with the stakes getting higher.

Whereas an optimistic outcome is more for superheroes, but more importantly it ultimately requires an end. Because without that happy ending to the journey the story feels unresolved.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Domhnall

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It definitely makes it better, Orks wouldn't be anywhere near as funny without that thuggish working class South East English accent. Which is both threatening and silly. 

[cretacianborn]

Theres actually a book I've pre-ordered from Forbidden Planet that covers this very subject. Might be an interesting read for some folks when it's released!

 

Grimdark: A Very British Hell.

[Scammel]

At the risk of getting political, it's worth emphasising that Britain's grotty post-war decline took place over several decades and simply saying 'Thatcher' doesn't speak to the wider miserable picture, including economic standstill in the 70s. An author writing in the 80s would have been influenced as much by the 'sick man of Europe' syndrome as much as government policies from 1979-onwards.

[Marshal Rohr]

Warhammer (Old War and 40K) was distinctly British. It is no longer distinctly British as the UK and US entertainment industries have so thoroughly assimilated into each other. There are very few Americans that don’t get British Humor anymore. American SciFi used to be that Golden Age/Buck Rogers “Big Questions” or optimistic outlook because we were doing things in space no one else could afford. After we stopped it just kinda all blended together during the 70s and 80s tonal shifts and mass market move towards space horror and stagnant themes.

 

40K may have started as a satire but it now well and truly a corporate IP franchise like Star Wars or Aliens and it’s stories are no longer cautionary or allegorical but self-perpetuating IP products. It was never a particularly strong on impactful commentary either since it’s message boiled down to ‘wouldnt it suck if the government was mean lol’ in a time when all media was selling the same story.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Dark Shepherd]

At the risk of getting political, it's worth emphasising that Britain's grotty post-war decline took place over several decades and simply saying 'Thatcher' doesn't speak to the wider miserable picture, including economic standstill in the 70s. An author writing in the 80s would have been influenced as much by the 'sick man of Europe' syndrome as much as government policies from 1979-onwards.

Thats true

Huge (cultural) impacts of miners strikes and power outages in UK in 70s. Fair amount of rioting too

[N1SB]

I grew up in London and in the US.  I've been thinking about this topic.  I can speak of it without politics or nationalism, by talking about peoples and nations.

 

Does Warhammer being British make it better?  I agree with what everyone's said, but I'd put it this way: Warhammer being British is what makes it Warhammer.

 

There are, obviously, specific elements that derive from the backdrop that is Britain.  Like Orks!  Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka named for the Prime Minister being ousted at the time.  But here's the thing, Ghazghkull wasn't some scorching political satire, it was Andy Chambers (a guy who rose through the ranks alongside recently-retired Jervis Johnson) randomly rolling up an Ork Warboss (this was 1st ed 40k, there are tables you roll like an RPG) and his actual character concept was this mad prophet...he just needed a name and for all I know he might have been watching Parliament on TV at the time.  All this and more was for a sample army to show how he collected and painted things, the equivalent of A Tale of Four Warlords on Warhammer Community.  That article was for an issue of White Dwarf and for the supplement 'Ere We Go, the 1st ed Orks Codex (I bought both at the time).  Thus, I don't put too much weight on the particulars, but instead, on the broader issue.

 

The broader issue imho is that Britain was teetering at the edge of empire; it wasn't quite the end of empire, but they could see it from there.

 

It's not the 1st nor the last time an empire ends, not with a bang but with a whimper, and it just happened to be happening in real-time when 40k was being created.  The most ridiculous yet immersive aspect of 40k imho isn't Orks, it's not even Space Marines, it's the dystopian Imperium of Man...most of which we don't get to experience (we see that world through its battlefields and a few hive settings mostly).  What inspired this rich yet impoverished setting?  Well, Warhammer founder Rick Priestley just looked around, really.

 

Why are British writers so good, and they are, at dystopian settings?  Not just 40k, nor just Black Mirror, not even Red Dwarf, but also V for Vendetta, Miracleman, Watchmen and, of course, Judge Dredd (in fact, these last 2 take place in America, just to show it's tied to Britain), etc.  It's because of the advice writers give: write what you know.

 

 

+++ What if 40k was American? +++

 

 

I just mentioned 2 dystopian visions written by British writers that take place in America, so what if something like 40k was Made in the USA?

 

Well, obviously American sci-fi also influenced 40k.  For one, Necrons were initially inspired by the Terminator films.  In fact, they were introduced in the boardgame Space Crusade and they were called Chaos Androids...this was in the 1st ed era, we did lots of crazy things back then.  But this question is not that abstract.

 

It's because we have a clear answer: Warhammer made in the US of A would probably look like StarCraft...because it is.

 

Blizzard Entertainment tried to license the Warhammer Fantasy IP for a new genre of games called Real Time Strategy.  When it couldn't, it made a game anyway with its own setting called WarCraft.  After that, they made StarCraft.  They even hired Andy Chambers, who had left GW, to be creative director for StarCraft II.  Their Terrans are analogous to Imperials, Zerg to Tyranids, Protoss to Eldar.

 

Both are awesome!  But 40k is not StarCraft nor the other way around, just as an Astartes is not a StarCraft Marine, and the Imperium is not the Dominion.  The point is, if you want to see what happens when you can compartmentalise Warhammer and whatever it is that makes it British and, say, replace it with Americana, we can see actual examples exist.

 

 

+++ Now imagine what if Warhammer was designed by people from another country +++

 

 

I also grew up partly in Tokyo.  The Japanese like models, just look at Bandai making that new Gravis Captain action figure, to say nothing of Gundam.  What if Warhammer was made in Japan instead?  Or India?  Or Germany?  Or Russian...which might actually be very similar to the British Warhammer we know, perhaps?

 

I dunno.  I leave you with this question, which might be a really good thought exercise for designing your own custom Chapters, actually.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I think a lot of it's been covered pretty well, but I think probably a lot of it is looking to history - England's existed in its current form for about 1,000 years, with a reasonable proportion of that capable of being described as "interesting times": society ranged from feudal serfdom to a functioning democracy, a good proportion of England's history has been spent at war (internally or externally), we've seen the rise and fall of empire, and society has been pretty riven by class conflict in "modern" times.

 

With regard to 40K specifically, if you look at society in the mid 1980's - you'd had planned/aborted coup of 1968, the economic troubles of the 1970's under one government; the move to a more free-market approach under the other government of the 1980's that widened wealth and health inequalities; the sometimes harsh repression of strikers (e.g. there was one instance of police "strike breaking" where every officer's baton was snapped), etc, which I think all feeds into the background (but turned up to 11).

 

I would also add that Britain by no means has a monopoly on dystopian visions - Russia and Eastern Europe seem to do it well, but in a more serious, bleak, manner.

 

Andy Chambers (a guy who rose through the ranks alongside recently-retired Jervis Johnson)

Rose to the rank of "40K Overfiend" (as referred to in White Dwarf - I sincerely hope that was his actual job title...)

 

But to the best of my knowledge, nobody in East Germany at the time ever thought to express themselves through the medium of miniature Orks.

 I think I enjoyed that sentence far more than is reasonable

Edited August 19, 2021 by Firedrake Cordova

[sairence]

As grimdark as 80s Britain was, I’d be surprised if Thatcher truly inspired more dystopian fiction than, say, Honecker. But to the best of my knowledge, nobody in East Germany at the time ever thought to express themselves through the medium of miniature Orks.

 

As someone born in former East Germany, this paragraph was amazing. Thank you Sir.

[Scammel]

I think a lot of it's been covered pretty well, but I think probably a lot of it is looking to history - England's existed in its current form for about 1,000 years, with a reasonable proportion of that capable of being described as "interesting times": society ranged from feudal serfdom to a functioning democracy, a good proportion of England's history has been spent at war (internally or externally), we've seen the rise and fall of empire, and society has been pretty riven by class conflict in "modern" times.

See, this leads me to the conclusion that the UK is uniquely peaceful in Europe. Since the Civil War and Scottish rebellions, the UK has basically avoided the apocalyptic domestic conflict that afflicted France, Germany, Poland, Russia et al, and the most recent truly traumatising event was the Battle of the Somme (which, if we're being honest, pales in comparison to what the others listed went through). England has continuity and security, and that's what leads to a proliferation of humorous dystopian media - the UK has seen enough darkness to know what it looks like, but has never taken it seriously through dint of the fact that it hasn't experienced anything near as horrible for centuries.

[Scribe]

The broader issue imho is that Britain was teetering at the edge of empire; it wasn't quite the end of empire, but they could see it from there.

 

It's not the 1st nor the last time an empire ends, not with a bang but with a whimper, and it just happened to be happening in real-time when 40k was being created. The most ridiculous yet immersive aspect of 40k imho isn't Orks, it's not even Space Marines, it's the dystopian Imperium of Man...most of which we don't get to experience (we see that world through its battlefields and a few hive settings mostly). What inspired this rich yet impoverished setting? Well, Warhammer founder Rick Priestley just looked around, really.

 

Why are British writers so good, and they are, at dystopian settings? Not just 40k, nor just Black Mirror, not even Red Dwarf, but also V for Vendetta, Miracleman, Watchmen and, of course, Judge Dredd (in fact, these last 2 take place in America, just to show it's tied to Britain), etc. It's because of the advice writers give: write what you know.

This is the answer to me. It's a formative period, it's also (as a Canadian of English/Irish ancestry) the direct line to what I see as the transition or more the realization that that Empire was gone.

 

That, and the wealth of history, legend, and myth we pull from, is probably why 40K is what it is, especially if you came up in it prior to the last 10 to 15 years.

[Lucien Eilam]

See, this leads me to the conclusion that the UK is uniquely peaceful in Europe.

 

I mean, cool, but maybe google “Northern Ireland” before you double-down on that notion.