What to expect from 9e CSM

[Marshal Loss]

Thought a list might be worthy of discussion, as various fraters have touched on bits and pieces in different topics under different headings, and it can be hard to keep track of what's going on if you don't follow developments with chaotic fanaticism. I've divided information into "confirmed", "probable", "possible", and "rumoured" at my own discretion. Where possible, I've linked sources. I might type out stat changes by hand when I have time, but for now have just included hyperlinked pictures.

 

Some "confirmed" changes are not ironclad, and it's possible things will change, but I think it's safe to assume that statlines will be largely consistent across books, with some exceptions (e.g. DG Possessed have T5, vanilla CSM Possessed may receive their other stat changes but stay T4).

 

CONFIRMED

• Chaos Space Marines, Chosen, Terminators, Havocs, Plague Marines, Rubricae, Noise Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Raptors, Warp Talons, Bikers, Fallen to all receive +1W.
• Daemon Engines moving to 3+ WS/BS
• Forgefiend stat changes: old | new in Codex: TS
• Maulerfiend stat changes: old | new in Codex: TS
• Heldrake stat changes: old | new in Codex: TS
• Defiler: Defiler cannon goes to flat 3 damage, attacks do not degrade (source: Codex: DG and TS)
• Possessed stat changes: old | new in Codex: DG (note the T5, which is probably unique to DG)
• Chaos Spawn stat changes: old | new in Codex: DG & TS.
• Helbrute stat changes: -2M, +1A (loses HA), -1D on incoming damage (sources: Codex: DG and TS)
• Predator datasheet separated into "Annihilator" and "Destructor" variants (sources: Codex: DG and TS)

PROBABLE

• Hateful Assault being removed, all CSM gaining +1 attack instead - probable (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS, +1A received instead)
• Cultists losing ObSec - probable (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS)
• Cultist units allowed 1:1 with CSM (e.g. basic CSM, Chosen, Possessed) - probable (based on restrictions in Codex: DG & TS)
• Veterans of the Long War will be changed to 2CP and only work on infantry - probable ("Eternal Hatred" in Codex: DG, "Wrath of the Wronged" in Codex: Thousand Sons)
• Dark Hereticus powers will remain largely unchanged - probable (based off "Lore of Vengeance" in Codex: TS)
• Linebreaker Bombardment and Killshot removed - probable (based off Codex: DG & TS)
• QOL stratagem changes (e.g. changes to relic stratagem, inclusion of WL trait acquisition stratagem, smoke launchers removed from datasheets and turned into a stratagem) - probable (all but certain)
• Existence of Boon Table for Crusade, which appears unchanged (other than ability names) in both Codex: DG and TS - probable
• Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes 0-1 per detachment (based off Codex: DG & TS) - probable
• Various Daemon Prince stat changes (e.g. +1S for Sword & Axe, -1AP + only 1 attack per Talon) - highly probable (based on C: DG and TS)

POSSIBLE

• Terminators/Havocs/CSM being restricted to the weapon options available in the box (see now-locked topic for information)
• Death to the False Emperor being removed - possible but unlikely (does not appear in Codex: DG/TS, but a recent FAQ may indicate it remains in some form for vanilla CSM)

RUMOURED

• World Eaters codex in 9th (Dosjetka, Valrak)
• Eldar vs CSM box (various sources: Valrak, Reddit) containing Autarch + Rangers + Ranger bikes vs. Warpsmith + Chosen + Forgefiend
• Possible model releases in 9th, from Dosjetka:

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• Possessed
• Bikers
• Chosen
• Warpsmith
• Cultists (BSF-style)
• Renegade Guard (BSF-style)
• Human mutants
• Possessed humans ("the latter two are monstrously horrible. Think of the Greater Possessed but cranked up to 11")
• Cultist standard bearer (character)
• Cultist character with bodyguards

 

CHAOS RUMOUR ENGINES

• September 7th: Thunder hammer (Warpsmith?)
• October 19th: Claw (Chaos Knights?)

ADVENT RUMOUR ENGINE (updated December 24th)

• December 11th: Claw (Chosen LC?)
• December 13th: Warpsmith Mechanendrite
• December 15th: Possible Slaanesh/EC hint(s) in text ("stimulating", "extravagant", "cacophony")
• December 16th: Horns
• December 17th: Mace or backpack exhaust?
• December 18th: Loin cloth
• December 19th: Warpsmith Mechanendrite 2.0
• December 21st: Loin cloth/belt
• December 22nd: Trophy rack
• December 23rd: Warpsmith's Power Axe

December 24th: Chaos vs Eldar teaser trailer:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Alleged Rules Leaks

 

Updated May 19th: Rules leaks (poster claims to be speaking to one of the Reddit Eldar leakers):

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

CSM doctrine:

• Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
• Destruction ''Doctrine''; turn 1: Heavy/grenade/Rapid fire
• Massacre ''Doctrine''; turn 2-3: Rapid fire/assault/pistol
• Slaughter ''Doctrine''; turn 3-end: pistol/melee/assault

Marks:

• Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS
• cost points
• Marks provide the keyword and a daemonic gift

''Daemonic Gifts'': (Included with mark)

• Khorne: +1S on the charge
• Nurgle: -1 to wound, IF S=T or S/2>=T
• Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save (this is per unit per turn)
• Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase

 

Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)

• vengeance +1 CA
• wrath +1ap melee
• flame +1ap shooting
• excess +1 to hit melee
• despair 6s to hit = autowound

Prayers

• basic prayer still reroll all hits in melee
• +1 to wound in melee
• 1-3 hits always fail, no rerolls allowed
• 6" aura when doing leadership test roll 2d6 discard the highest & fail action & fight last
• +1 to hit (GONE)
• 5++ buble is gone you said (GONE)
• priest gets +2a(was +3) and +2ap in addition to weapon weapon ap
• Tzeentch: +d3 wounds (GONE)
• Slaanesh: advance and charge
• Khorne: S+2 (GONE)
• Nurgle: T+2 (GONE)

Hereticus discipline:

• warptime still there but no charge
• +1 to hit
• no invul on 1 ennemy unit
• 1 model get s+2 & +1a
• 3d6 each 4+ = 1mw
• if d6 is bigger then T, then d3 MW and units within 6" take 1mw on a 4+
• Tzeentch 4++
• Slaanesh 5+++
• Nurgle -1 to hit
• Warptime: unit affected by warptime cannot charge afterwards

Malefic discipline:

• DAEMONKIN unit: warptalon, MoP, possessed, obliterators
• +1 to wound
• Bring back a DAEMONKIN model
• 4+ inv to DAEMONKIN units and enemy's take mortals if they charge
• Beat the models toughness on d6 destroy it
• 6's to hit auto wound for a DAEMONKIN unit
• +1 str or toughness (or both if rolled high on test)

Generic WLT

• for the puposes of CA ennemy units always count as if at half strength

Generic Stratagems

• for bolt rounds +6" & +1ap for the unit
• JUMP unit : Mw on the charge
• JUMP unit : -1 attack
• daemonforge: +1 BS/WS for daemon engines
• bikers, if they advance -1 to hit
• nurgle only transhuman physiology 4+
• Legionnaires can shoot or fight twice (only source of fight/shoot twice strats)
• +1 to hit to CHOSEN or TERMINATORS
• fire frenzy: HELBRUTE at the end of the shooting phase, if it was hit, can fire at the unit that shot at it or shoot at the nearest ennemy unit
• Another character can have a WLT

 

Legion rule:

 

NL

• -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
• +1 to advance & +1 to charges
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT

• 6" aura that cancels obsec
• +1 CA to ennemies & always consolidate 3" in any direction, even if touching base to base
• the horrible warlord trait of once per battle you can reroll 1 dice for hit, wounds, advance, charge and saves has been changed. It is now once per turn you can auto 6 a dice for hit, wound, advance or saves
• +D3 attacks & warlord is considered always in the slaughter phase... this is evil on a disco lord
• +1 to armor and invul saves in terrain is GONE
• fall back and charge + -1 to hit is GONE

Relics

• FLY relic (daemon prince only it seems): moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+ 
• claws of the black hunt are back but jave been renamed, S+1 ap3 D2, does not gain reroll wounds instead gains ennemies canoot use rules that ignore wounds
• vox daemonicus is 12" no deepstrike & ennemies must pass a leadership test or cannot perform actions or psychic actions; infantry only
• flayer is still there and seem to be exactly the same
• stormbolt plate, infantry only, 2+ save and untargetable beyond 12"

Stratagems

• Vox scream: cancels AURAS
• units in deepstrike or strategic reserves count themselves as 1 turn earlier. 1cp fo infantry & bikers; 2cp for daemonkin
• no fall back strat
• fall back and charge
• -1 to hit if fired upon 
• rerolls to hit if Ld is higher then ennemies (used to be +1 to hit)
• there are no more stratagems that influences moral
• lost the stratagem that gives +2 to the charge and +1 to hit in melee from terrain
• if you slay the ennemy warlord, +1 CA to ennemies for the rest of the game

IW

• Ignores cover
• Reduce ap1/2 by 1
• Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT

• Some way to give +1 damage to certain units

Stratagems

• 5+++ vs MW
• -1 damage for core infantry & daemonkin.
• reduce incoming ap strat is GONE
• cultist bodyguards are still there

 

WB

• Charges/HI = reroll hits
• 5+++ vs MW
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

Stratagems

• no more strat for possessed +1d
• the auto pass psyker spell is still there
• the auto save strat has been changed to take 0 damage instead
• they have 2 strats that affect daemonkin or possessed

 

BL

• ignore CA
• +1  to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
• Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)

Stratagem

• strat that lets you change a units legion for a turn.
• 1 unit can be considered destruction/massacre/slaughter at the same time, core units only

 

Alpha legion

• -1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
• Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
• Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

WLT

• sniper warlord trait
• redeploy for up to 3.units
• a cultist buff
• i am alpharius is still there

relics

• one turn for battle ennemy strats cost +1cp on a 4+ 
• power sword with dd3 and causes -1 to hit (GONE)
• bolt weapons wounds on +2(except vehicules and titanic), ignores cover 
• the combi bolter relic must be gone since no way foe HQ to get combis (GONE)
• +2 armor, and transhuman
• armor with 3d6 movemebt that can "ghostwalk" through units(still there)

Stratagems

• the sabotage strat is now auto explode
• fall back and shoot
• 12" deepstrike denial
• shoot a unit that deepstrikes nearby
• forward operatives, pregame move
• conceal is replaced with untargetable beyond 12"

Emperor's children

• Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
• Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
• wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6
• Side note, this matches up with a 4chan leak that said TH chosen could hit on 2s with EC (legion trait+icon of excess)
• Noise Marines are troops
• dont need to pay for slaanesh marks

Stratagems

• honour the prince is still there
• the sonic weapons strat does mortal wounds now, no longer +1s +1d

Red corsairs

• Charge if they advanced
• Models count as 2 for obsec; Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
• wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

Creations of bile

• +1 str/move
• Fight after death in melee
• wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

''Build a warband'' renegade traits

• +4" to range other than grenade and relic
• After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game
• After charging, in melee 6s to hit autowound (khorne specific)
• In melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (tzeentch specific)
• +1 to wound vs half strength unit (nurgle specific
• +1ap on a 6 to wound unmodified (slaanesh specific)
• +1 to advance and charge rolls
• +1 to hit when targetting clossest ennemy unit
• +1 movement & strength
• Ignore CA/Fallback and shoot/fallback and charge; but with -1 to hit for the rest of the turn (All uncompassing; unmarked specific, so no marks allowed)

WE

• Not in the codex

 

 

Datasheet info:

 

Chaos lord

• base loadout is thunderhammer and plasma pistol
• has access to all melee weapons
• can only have bolt or plasma pistol

 

Abbadon

• 8A s10 ap4 d3, 6+ to wound cuases d3 MW (drachnyen pierce)
• 16A s7 ap4 d1 (drachnyen sweep)
• always fights first
• -1 to wound
• first failed save reduced to 0 damage
• +1s on the charge
• can only take max 3 damage per phase
• full rerolls
• charge bonus
• supposedly very pricy (would be around 300 ish points)

 

Disco lord

• +1 to hit VEHICULES in melee
• Bs2 ws2 s4 t6 9w 6A LD9 2+/5++
• Limited to 1 and cant get multiple boosts (i don't understand what this means yet)
• Techno virus injector: in engagement range all weapons get +1 damage vs VEHICULES
• impaler chainglaive: Suser ap3 d2; on the charge +1 to wound
• the melta mouth weapon is a melta pistol
• claws and tail are 4 additional attacks @ S6 ap2 d2
• mechadentritees: 4x s4 ap0 d1
• ability to wound vehicules: you can corrupt a vehicule: roll a d6 for every wound that a vehicule has on a 6s=1MW (maximum of 6); if you kill an ennemy vehicule in melee you can corrupt 2 different vehichles instead of just 1. The double corruption ability is gained for the rest of the game. Happens in the command phase.

Warpsmith

• Can heal vehicules
• +1 to hit for VEHICULES for shooting

MoE (elite slot)

• Rerolls wounds v char
• 6" heroic intervene
• Hits of six does two mortals and the attack ends 
• Axe got worse Doesn't reroll hits Doesn't explode (does with legion)
• Gains a wound and an attack

Dank Apostle

• all god specific prayers are entirely new
• cast 1 prayer (stratagem to cast another prayer)
• no longer has illusionory supplication

MoP

• Has a staff that causes perils in combat with a psyker
• Cast 2 deny 1
• When casting, can cause d3 mortals to a friendly non daemonkin unit to gain +2 to cast
• Enemy psykers suffer one additional wound if they peril within 12"

Sorcerer in terminator armor

• can have a chaos familiar

Cultist HQ squad

• its a squad, with a banner, a priest and a psyker, + some extra bullet catchers
• The banner:rerolls 1s to hit for cultists & +2Ld to cultists
• psyker: cast 1 deny 1
• priest: knows the basic prayer and another, always lands prayer on a 3+
• squad of 5 models

Lucius

• gains 3 additional attacks
• +1 damage if fighting a unit with a 3+ WS

Harken

• can make a raptor unit reroll hit and wound

Huron

• Gains a toughness,wound, attack & leadership
• His claw doubles his attacks instead of being a powerfist.

Cypher

• In the codex
• can only be hit on a 4+

CSM legionaries (5-10)

• legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
• same profile as before but 2W and 3a (4a on the AC) 
• Ld9
• loadout:
• AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
• Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
• 1 legionaire can take a special weapon
• 1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
• 1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
• 1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
• 1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

Cultist

• 10-20

Accursed cultists

• a squad made of a mix of big mutant and small mutants
• 3-6 big models per unit
• 5-10 small models per unit
• big mutant at S5 t4 1W & ap2 in melee
• small mutant are S4 t4 1W & ap1 in melee

 

Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

• Are no longuer in the codex
• Act like harlequins in CWE army,  or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
• Always Elites
• can benefit from army rules
• Cannot gain a legion trait
• noise marine weapons are GOOD

Fallen

• No in the codex

Exalted Champion

• Same loadout as the model (power axe, combi melta & pistol)
• Is elite and is now a lieutenant (rerolls 1 to wound @6")
• Cannot change loadout
• Hits better, more wounds, more attacks

Chosen (5-10)

• 3w
• Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
•  WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
• can take icon
• Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of  traits from the list of build a warband traits
• Loadout:
• everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
• 1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Terminators (5-10)

• Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
• 1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
• 3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
• 1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

Greater possessed

• Not in the codex (my guess is the models are the new regular possessed models)

Possessed (5-10)

• 9'' s5 t5 3w 5a 3+/5++
• Melee Suser ap2 d2
• Take 2 slots in transports
• Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit

Mutilators

• no longer in the book

 

Warp talon (unit 5 to 10)

• lost cancel overwatch
• gained no fallback
• 5a (these are total with claws)

 

Raptors (unit 5 to 10)

• still have the -1LD aura
• +2a
• Chainsword and pistol
• Up to 2 special weapons
• Up to 2 plasma pistols
• Champ
• Can take plasma pistol
• Power sword or fist

Venomcrawler

• is now FA
• 12" bs3 ws2 s7 t7 9w 6a 3+/5++ (no longer degrades)
• Assault 3 s6 ap2 d2
• Melee Suser ap3 d2
• now gives +1 to psychic tests

Bikers (unit 3 to 9)

• 14" bs3 ws3 t5 3w 3a ld9 3+
• Replace pistol for chainsword
• Up to 2 special weapons
• Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
• Icon
• Champ
• Plasma pistol
• 1 weapon from Melee weapon

Obliterators (1-3)

• 5" bs3 ws3 t5 5w 4a ld9 2+/5++
• have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
• Not core
• ignore modifier for heavy weapons
• armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
• 24'' range
• Has 3 shooting profiles:
• Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
• Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
• Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4

 

Havocs (5)

• exactly the same as right now but 2w

Noctilith Crown

• T8 14w
• Lash has 8 shots and improved strength but degrades
• Increasing aura every turn of -1l/4++ vs shooting
• PRIEST & PSYKER within 9" can perform an ACTION: perform leadership test, if equal or below, gain 1 CP, can also replace 1 prayer or 1 spell

Other:

• The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle
• No way of giving jump pack to characters
• All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)
• Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each

Now for icons, here is a list of markable units who can have icons:

• Legionaires
• Chosen
• Possessed
• Bikers
• Terminator

Here is a list of markable units that cannot get icons:

• Raptors
• Warptalons
• Helbrute
• Havocs

Finally here are the units that have a native -1ld @6" aura (these stack among each other):

• Daemon prince
• Accursed cultists
• possessed
• Chaos spawn
• Raptors

DAEMONKIN Keyword:

• Obliterator
• Master of possession
• Possessed
• Warp talon

 

Note: only the "doctrine" and World Eaters' absence has been publicly confirmed by a reliable source.

Note 2.0: with the announcement of the CSM Nachmund Kill Team by GW, these rumours have gained a lot more plausibility. Apply salt as required.

Note 3.0: many parts of above leaks confirmed.

 

Let me know anything if I've missed anything, or made any mistakes, and I'll fix it. If the topic stays active I'll update the first post as information or rumours arise over the coming months.

• What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?
• Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?
• Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?

Edited May 18, 2022 by Marshal Loss

[WarriorFish]

I won't miss DttFE if it goes, it was a bit of a rubbish rule. It would have been much better if it applied to all, there's plenty of reasons for CSM to hate everyone but more importantly it makes for a better and fairer rule. It's not great when your army rule only exists in some games Fingers crossed it is replaced with something nice.

 

I'm not sure about Hateful Assault, I thought this was a reflection of their Cult status as more elite troops? Same as how they can't go above 10 models - this might not necessarily apply to non-Cult CSM? I wouldn't mind getting a flat +1A though and it would simplify things a bit.

 

I will wait and see as always, it feels that C:CSM is going to turn into a more rounded Chaos force with more options if the rumours are to be believed. If this gives good choices in army structure we're on to a winner (i.e. LatD style force can be made and be effective, along with pure Marines etc). The rest is things like doctrines and that, but I haven't got the foggiest what these could be I wouldn't call it optimism, but I can see the potential for something good so I'm looking forward to finding out if it can be fulfilled.

[Sarvis]

Dosjetkas previous rumor proved true. If I were a betting man I’d bet on this coming through. All the listed units sound reasonable, and chaos of any stripe has been without a significant release for 2 years or so.

 

I, for one, am ecstatic for this potential release and that of world eaters.

[Kaiju Soze]

If Death to the False Emperor isn't removed, it seems likely to become "additional hit" rather than "additional attack", given general trends. I'm actually expecting it to either stay or get rolled into some kind of Doctrines equivalent; there's a bit of a rules gap if it just goes without a replacement.

 

Other things I'd expect to see:

- 1 Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince per detachment

- 1 Cultist unit per CSM unit

- Daemonforge either goes or becomes "use top profile until end of phase"

Edited August 20, 2021 by Kaiju Soze

[jgascoine011]

Double shoot will almost definitely go.

I expect bezerkers inbuilt fight twice will go and the fight twice strat will only be available to them (if that even stays)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

  On 8/20/2021 at 11:20 AM, jgascoine011 said:

Double shoot will almost definitely go.

I expect bezerkers inbuilt fight twice will go and the fight twice strat will only be available to them (if that even stays)

It wouldn't surprise me at all if zerkers had their double fight changed to a fight on death ability like wulfen.  That just seems like the most lore friendly way to represent them on the table top.  If you always fight once you get stuck in then the blood always flows.  

[Galron]

If they do the unit locking to box contents it will defy 20+ years of the difference between loyalist and chaos terminators. The fact we can customize ours for specific or unspecific roles and they cant. As for Havocs, Devastators still get the option for all so I doubt Havocs will lose this. But as someone who extensively uses Terminators(I dont have a single 2k list that has less than 2 squads and my newest has 25) and havocs to a lesser degree(I usually have one) I will sell my armies if they screw us over like that or simply keep what works for 30k and sell the rest. Terminators and customization of them is why I play them and have been my favorite part of the army since 2nd edition. I'm still ticked they moved the Sonic Dread to legends, my hatred runs deep. My Iron Warriors army is based off of an assault force of 20 terminators and 9 oblits(based off of 30k Tyrant termies), each 5 or 10 man unit with a specific job.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Good idea and good execution Marshal Loss!

 

I agree with Kaiju Soze about only one Lord and Daemon Prince per detatchment, that will probably make it into the codex, I'd put it under probable. I don't know about the one cultist unit per astartes though, if the rumor about the new units are true they might let you make a cultist themed army.

 

@Warriorfish: I think marines will go to 10 models per unit. Tacticals did, I think it was more about avoiding a 40W troop unit. Also limits the strength of buffs (strats, spells and such).

 

I'm not a fan of Dttfe. I don't care for the fact that it only works on imperium keyword. I don't care for <faction> targeting stuff, it can be fluffy (Grey knights against daemons for example) but rules wise it can be unbalanced. GW already has a hard enough time trying to balance the game/factions.

 

As for your three questions:

 

I'm hoping for just a fat codex. I don't want multiple books. If they did a supplement I think it would be one for the remaining Legions, not individual. But who knows. If they did individual books I'd imagine they might as well do a unique character per and proper upgrade sprues too.

 

No idea what the mono bonus will be. They will get one though. I would have never guessed DG's mono bonus (-1T growing aura), so I won't try guessing their's haha.

 

I'm not sure what will come with a codex, but I think they need a redone fast attack (bikes?) first. With the last wave they got 3 redone or new heavy support (havoc, oblits and venomcrawler), 2 elites (greater possessed and terminators), 20 marine sculpts (troops) and a whole bunch of HQ (6?). So there is currently no new fast attack. And the bike kit is older than the raptor/warptalon, right?

[Galron]

The bike kit I think is from 2nd edition. Those are actually new raptor/warptalons. They have gone through 3 iterations since 3rd. 

[Closet Skeleton]

  On 8/20/2021 at 1:52 PM, Galron said:

The bike kit I think is from 2nd edition. Those are actually new raptor/warptalons. They have gone through 3 iterations since 3rd. 

Bike kit is a really early 3rd ed release. That's why the riders were compatable with the old chaos marines and the design is slightly better than the loyalist bikes but not as good as the Scout bikes. Berzerkers came slightly after and then the old regular chaos marines.

 

Raptors are 6th ed along with the Mutilators, Helbrute, Heldrake and Forgefiend.

 

Oldest kits after the Bikes and Berzerkers are the Defiler, Land Raider and Rhino family from later in 3rd ed and the Daemon Prince, Possessed and Chaos Spawn from 4th ed.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[TrawlingCleaner]

While havocs have never had a restriction, they are a newer kit. I can definitely see terminators, havocs and chaos marines all being slapped with a restricted load out based on their box. Plague marines, blight lords, kabalites, wyches, rangers and vanguard all also got hit with this so it seems to be a trend. Not Astartes though of course.

 

Astartes kept shock assault, I could see CSM keeping it too to keep the cult and the non cult different maybe?

 

A common trend between Rubric and Plague marines is ignoring morale modifiers

[MegaVolt87]

We don't have transhuman strat or apothecary, 20 naked CSM with the wound bump will match tac marine points. That would be 360 points, not exactly cheap. Also remember they take full dmg from blast. To me, WE should hit back on death in melee while EC are the ones that should be fighting twice in melee. Also fixed loadouts from the box would kill the CSM faction, it sucks for DG IMO. I play chaos for the customisable loadouts. If I wanted fixed loadouts I would play loyalists.

[WarriorFish]

It'd be a shame to lose 11+ squads as it's a nice difference to have and fun putting big squads down, but I don't think they'll be that great. Durable yes (morale aside), but not particularly killy or mobile? My expectations are low but I cling to the hope their differences to Cult troops might make the difference here. I can't see them getting immunity to morale for example.

 

The biker kit is an obvious one for an update to the core CSM range if not for me personally, I'd love to see an updated Defiler.

[gaurdian31]

I definitely see them going to 1 cultist unit to 1 csm unit in a standard csm army due to the faq from Charadon Book 2 stating:

"Page 75 - Restrictions Change the third bullet point to read: ‘You cannot include more Chaos Cultists units than other Heretic Astartes Infantry units (excluding Character units) in each Detachment in your army." 

[Khornestar]

Oh wow, great thread!

 

Some changes from DG and TS that I had no idea about. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would like each of the main legions that don't have a unique character to get one, like the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, etc.

New bikes, possessed, etc. would be well received.

 

Something good for Word Bearers I second as well. Perhaps leaning more into the possessed side of things may work well?

[Goreshed]

Given that DG and TS have their own codex I could see WE and EC getting their own as well, with primarchs to boot. The fact that GW has been insanely tight lipped about Chaos in general leads me to believe that 2022 will be filled with a lot of Chaos. Any time they go as silent as they do that means a rather large shake up, be it with simply models or a combination of new models and fluff as well.

 

To go with the new WE/EC codex's I could also see a book along the lines of the regular marine dex that provides something for those legions that will most likely never get a secondary book (IW/WB/NL/AL/BL). While I'm not expecting it, having individual special characters for each of the mono legions would be nice, but given GW's usual operating methods I doubt it. Even if its just up to date rules to utilize the legions (perhaps with their own individual crusade rules....) would be nice.

 

Model wise I'd sound like a broken record, bikes, possessed, mutilators, rhino, pred, landraider, defiler, but also all of the human side of it as well. I'd love to see more options for a mortal chaos army but I am very much doubtful of it.

[Special Officer Doofy]

  On 8/21/2021 at 6:09 AM, Goreshed said:

I'd love to see more options for a mortal chaos army but I am very much doubtful of it.

I don't want any of that cultist/human stuff to be honest in the chaos marine codex. Save it for renegades and their own proper codex. I hate when people argue "chaos warbands have tons of cultists, way more humans than marines". While completely true, it's even more true for loyalist. Largest legion was the ultramarines and it was still less than 300,000 marines. The imperial guard has to be way up in the trillions for their numbers (based on the scope of the imperium being 1,000,000 planets). There are only a few million space marines. At some point quantity takes over quality. I don't see Astra militarium units in a space marine codex, so I don't want any other human units in the chaos codex (barring cultist, cause they are already an option and taking options away sucks for players).

 

All my opinion of course. How many of you would rather have the humans in the chaos marine codex versus saving it for their own renegade and hereticus codex (or whatever it would be called)? I rather they just make the vanilla chaos space marine point effecient and fun with the marks and legion traits and see plenty of them on the table instead of massed cultists.

[Doctor Perils]

@putrid choir, the difference is loyalists will generally operate independently, which isn't the case with chaos armies. I do agree they shouldn't reduce the space for our Astartes units to make room for a R&H list, but I'd be ok expanding the size of our codex like what loyalists have in primaris

 

What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?

I think the most likely is campaign books or white dwarf indexes. Supplement: traitor legions is the second most likely. Individual supplements would be my preferred choice though

 

Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?

Not sure about general faction rules, but I hope we'll see a Black Crusade rule for the Crusade System allowing characters to progress towards daemonic ascension - once it triggers you have to play a game: if you win, you ascend, if you lose you go to spawn without passing GO

 

Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?

While I love the Daemon engines and possessed and stuff like that, what I'd actually like to see expanded is our range of "vanilla" stuff (marine squads, bikers, things like that) - the reaper chain cannon was a step in the right direction, but I think there's room for stuff like a breacher unit, something that changes up the classic formula

I'd also like to see our roster of heroes expanded and changed a bit - more stuff like the greater possessed having several units for a slot, heroes moving out of HQ into elites, etc. - have dual kit heroes that can make a named character (eg a warpsmith/IW warsmith dualkit)

 

Bikers and chosen are the most likely, followed by a dual kit defiler. We might also see a new centrepiece kit, perhaps in the pseudo diorama style (triumph of Saint Katherine and co)

[Khornestar]

  On 8/20/2021 at 6:17 AM, Marshal Loss said:

 

Let me know anything if I've missed anything, or made any mistakes, and I'll fix it. If the topic stays active I'll update the first post as information or rumours arise over the coming months.

• What do people think is more likely: legion supplements in another campaign book/Charadon II sticks around? Supplement: Traitor Legions? Individual supplements for each legion?
• Thoughts on what our doctrine/contagion/cabal point equivalent will be?
• Which models do you think are most likely to be released alongside the 9e book, if any? What needs to be replaced the most?

 

 

Some thoughts, might be repeats of what others have said a bit:

 

1. I think campaign books will come, introducing new rules for CSM and others. This is where they will list the common profile for those units listed above that have been updated. I feel like they're gonna do this before updating the codex, so they can sell more books. I admit I'm jaded, and could be wrong. However, the established pattern seems to be more books without updating the main codex/content, so I assume we'll continue getting more of that for a while. 6th edition through now sure seems like it fits that pattern, and it's repeated over years and across editions.

 

2. I'm not sure we'll get a special rules mechanic/similar to DG/TS. Not having a similar rules mechanic might be the CSM flavor (as now). Continue relying on a basic, mostly lacking special rules datasheet for the majority of our units, and then characters who can buff the heck out of them to make them insanely killy and such. Again, that is just based off the existing pattern from 6th that I mentioned that I feel is a real thing. The buffs we lost in terms of the special detachments and such might be returned in some form. I would be pleasantly surprised if there was a faction-wide rules mechanic, and even though they have been quite creative with some of the codices in 9th, who knows what they'll do. 

 

My wishlist #1 would just be better units at the basic datasheet level, and the buffs that come from the characters are great but their absence doesn't immediately relegate the units they're buffing to the shelf. With or without army-wide mechanics. I think some sort of fel ritual would be a cool army mechanic. The enforced balance of cultists and marines is actually really cool in theory, but without updates to both units is just an arbitrary hamstringing of troops. Example: unit of cultists begins chanting; inflict d3 mortal wounds on the unit to buff a HERETIC ASTARTES unit on the table in some way. Or generate 1 CP. Or something. If they're just crummy mortal mooks filling out a detachment again, I'll be disappointed.

 

3. I think others have covered this pretty well. I'd be surprised if Chosen stayed as an option in our codex, or if they do, they'll use the same kit as the basic CSM and it'll be a rules-based thing, as it is now. The no-model-no-rules thing, if finally applied to Chosen, needs to be resolved. They're not gonna give us 5 of everything in a kit. Taking 1 or 2 of everything is kinda dumb too, so I really don't know. I'm most excited to see what they do with this unit, though I could honestly take them or leave them as a codex entry. I think they have a lot of cool potential, including objective-secured elites. This seems like a unit that should very obviously be ob-sec, to me. Same with terminators. Other armies have ways of making other battlefield role units ob-sec, so CSM should too. I'd rather it be a set rule than a warlord trait aura, the way loyalists get.

 

I bet we won't see cult marines touched until WE/EC come out. No new special characters whatsoever. Warpsmith as a new plastic sculpt, MAYBE plastic power armor chaos lord, but since the blackstone fortress mini exists, maybe not.

 

Lol reading it back it's so negative, but I swear I'm not all doom and gloom. I just have very low expectations for any changes, based on the pattern I mentioned. I will be the biggest cheerleader for any positive changes. Promise.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Juggernut

[BrainFireBob]

Holding my breath on terminators and Chosen.

 

Really curious to see what they do with Cults in the generic CSM book.

 

I desperately want movement options for the Apostle, Exalted Champ (who I suspect will be cut), and Warpsmith. Bike, jump pack, termie armor.

 

Firestrikes should have been a CSM option, from a needs POV.

[Goreshed]

@Putrid Choir - It's been talked about a thousand times over in the renegade section of the forum. Not having a mortal followers of Chaos army when the Imperium syncs so well together does us a disservice. So, between the models from Blackstone fortress and the new cultists models, one can wish cant they? Getting the power armored side squared away would be a huge boon, even if the mortal side suffers as it always has.

[Excessus]

Great thread Marshal!

 

I have a question, if all the CSM units get +1w, what about the HQ choices? Do they benefit as well?

[Special Officer Doofy]

  On 8/23/2021 at 5:45 AM, Excessus said:

Great thread Marshal!

 

I have a question, if all the CSM units get +1w, what about the HQ choices? Do they benefit as well?

I would guess no. When DG got the extra wound, just their plague marines and terminators got it. Their various lords, sorcerers and elite characters did not receive the bonus wound.

[MegaVolt87]

I'm honestly worried if mortals are included in the CSM dex per the rumours, leaving CSM regulated to a secondary detachment stacked with the top heavy HQ, elites and HS as the optimal list. I don't want a busted soup then nerfed so everything sucks just because its bad doing mono CSM upon release, in comparison to loyalists who have much stronger incentives to mono list.