What to expect from 9e CSM

[DesuVult]

I could swear I have posted the math here several times. Accursed weapons are not good in any reasonable capacity. I can run whatever math people want.

 

5 terminators with accursed weapons kills 2 plague marines or 3 intercessors on average. Into good units it gets worse. Accursed weapons are just power swords with an extra attack.

[Toldavf]

I could swear I have posted the math here several times. Accursed weapons are not good in any reasonable capacity. I can run whatever math people want.

 

5 terminators with accursed weapons kills 2 plague marines or 3 intercessors on average. Into good units it gets worse. Accursed weapons are just power swords with an extra attack.

They are more comparable to a single claw since aoc. Termies will be made or broken by how well the marks/banners effect them. str 10 ap -4 powerfists are good on paper at least though if you run into -1 damage it will still suck. 

 

At this point I'm making the best of a bad situation, having access to -3 ap and potential for -4 ap can be a blessing. 

 

I would never have thought this way pre AOC back then -2ap was enough. 

[Cryptix]

 

 

I could swear I have posted the math here several times. Accursed weapons are not good in any reasonable capacity. I can run whatever math people want.

 

5 terminators with accursed weapons kills 2 plague marines or 3 intercessors on average. Into good units it gets worse. Accursed weapons are just power swords with an extra attack.

They are more comparable to a single claw since aoc. Termies will be made or broken by how well the marks/banners effect them. str 10 ap -4 powerfists are good on paper at least though if you run into -1 damage it will still suck.

 

At this point I'm making the best of a bad situation, having access to -3 ap and potential for -4 ap can be a blessing.

 

I would never have thought this way pre AOC back then -2ap was enough.

How do they hit S10? S8 + 1 from MoKhorne on the Charge, where's the second +1?

[Toldavf]

 

 

I could swear I have posted the math here several times. Accursed weapons are not good in any reasonable capacity. I can run whatever math people want.

 

5 terminators with accursed weapons kills 2 plague marines or 3 intercessors on average. Into good units it gets worse. Accursed weapons are just power swords with an extra attack.

They are more comparable to a single claw since aoc. Termies will be made or broken by how well the marks/banners effect them. str 10 ap -4 powerfists are good on paper at least though if you run into -1 damage it will still suck.

 

At this point I'm making the best of a bad situation, having access to -3 ap and potential for -4 ap can be a blessing.

 

I would never have thought this way pre AOC back then -2ap was enough.

How do they hit S10? S8 + 1 from MoKhorne on the Charge, where's the second +1?

 

You are applying the buff wrong I believe. In the current edition weapon multipliers are always added last. 

 

Of course I could be wrong about that lets use Cunninghams Law to find out. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Modifying Characteristics

Some large models’ characteristics can change as the model suffers damage – look at such a model’s remaining wounds and consult the appropriate row of the chart on their datasheet to determine its current characteristics.

You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction.

 

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current

Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers

to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply

any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you

then modify this value as described by the weapon’s

Strength characteristic.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[DesuVult]

 

I could swear I have posted the math here several times. Accursed weapons are not good in any reasonable capacity. I can run whatever math people want.

 

5 terminators with accursed weapons kills 2 plague marines or 3 intercessors on average. Into good units it gets worse. Accursed weapons are just power swords with an extra attack.

They are more comparable to a single claw since aoc. Termies will be made or broken by how well the marks/banners effect them. str 10 ap -4 powerfists are good on paper at least though if you run into -1 damage it will still suck. 

 

At this point I'm making the best of a bad situation, having access to -3 ap and potential for -4 ap can be a blessing. 

 

I would never have thought this way pre AOC back then -2ap was enough. 

 

The key to LCs is volume with inbuilt rerolls.  For all that D2 is maligned there is a reason the premier space marine weapon currently is the encarmine axe.

[Clockworkchris]

Desuvullt your math is off, 5 terminators kill 4.66 intercessors on average, so five rounding that number. Accursed weapons are better than all current power weapons except LC, and even then its not by a huge margin. on average of all power weapons accursed are better than the average.

[DesuVult]

Desuvullt your math is off, 5 terminators kill 4.66 intercessors on average, so five rounding that number. Accursed weapons are better than all current power weapons except LC, and even then its not by a huge margin. on average of all power weapons accursed are better than the average.

3 attacks base +1 for accursed weapon.  4 attacks per model.  5 models.  20 attacks +1 for champion.  21 attacks.

 

Hitting on 3+equals 2/3 of attacks hitting.

21*2/3=14

 

S5 v T4, 3+ to wound, 2/3 of hits wounding.

14*2/3=9.3

 

AP -3 reduced to AP -2 via Armor of Contempt v 3+ armor save becoming 5+ save, 2/3 of wounds inflicting damage

9.3*2/3=6.2

 

This is the math I used for 3.1 dead intercessors.

[Clockworkchris]

sorry my bad, made a mistake.

[Cheex]

Will Terminators get an extra warband trait, or will that just be Chosen?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Accursed weapons are fine. Melee weapons as a whole are in an odd spot where Damage 2 is either great for cost or awful for it, while damage 3 is rare outside of a couple distinct exceptions. I feel if Accursed weapons were to go to Damage 2 there'd be a lot of moaning about how too many hard targets ignore the extra damage that we have to pay for, so assuming they're priced competatively at damage 1 it's the best we can hope for. Especially if there are some mortal wounds strats or what not we can bolt on. Power fists on my loyalist termies run into this problem, where sometimes they're just wielding super inaccurate power swords and other times they tear a tank in half.

[Warsmith sargos]

Accursed weapons are fine. Melee weapons as a whole are in an odd spot where Damage 2 is either great for cost or awful for it, while damage 3 is rare outside of a couple distinct exceptions. I feel if Accursed weapons were to go to Damage 2 there'd be a lot of moaning about how too many hard targets ignore the extra damage that we have to pay for, so assuming they're priced competatively at damage 1 it's the best we can hope for. Especially if there are some mortal wounds strats or what not we can bolt on. Power fists on my loyalist termies run into this problem, where sometimes they're just wielding super inaccurate power swords and other times they tear a tank in half.

words of wisdom

 

we are the legions! we will prevail no matter what!

CWC any chance for more Warlords traits to all the legions? or the great eye still watching us

[DesuVult]

If power sword equivalent weapons are fine why are they so rarely utilized despite just about every army having access to them and some armies able to significantly buff them?

Edited May 12, 2022 by DesuVult

[Warsmith sargos]

If power sword equivalent weapons are fine why are they so rarely utilized despite just about every army having access to them and some armies able to significantly buff them?

most of the armies pay for the power swords, and normal power swords wont give you +1 attack.

Lighting claw was our go to weapon, now with AOC ap 2 wont be as good as it was, and at least they will deliver the same amount of attacks.

also worth a notice alot of abilitys that gave you reroll to wound changed to +1 to wound since 9th lunched (custodes as example) and now we start see armies that you cant reroll wounds againt them as a trait (lazy rules from GW like AOC imho)

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Because they usually aren't +1 attack. So if you're crit fishing or hoard fighting you want chainswords or the like, while if you're fighting elites or tanks you want the power fist. But this is a weapon with the bonus of a chainsword and the stats of a powersowrd. Or if you like, the stats of a powersword but the bonus of a chainsword. So it can pull hoard and crit fish duty while also having enough ap punch to shave away at elites.

 

That said, I do use power swords. The one I can never justify is the power maul. Even the power axe is a little shaky. But for 5 points, having the ability to crack armor can be pretty clutch now and again.

[Abaddon303]

Lot of people are switching to power swords because of the AP anyway. Seeing a lot more blightlords with swords even though S5 isn't as big a boon for them with their -1T. Pretty sure anything relevant T5 and below, the accursed weapons will outperform claws unless the target has no save or only an invuln like daemons.

 

Into T4 Marines

21 Accursed Weapon attacks do 6.2 damage

21 Lightning Claw attacks do 5.25 damage

 

Into T5 BLTs

21 Accursed Weapon attacks do 3.5 damage

21 Lightning Claw attacks do 2.6 damage

 

Into T7 Rhino

21 Accursed Weapon attacks do 3.1 damage

21 Lightning Claw attacks do 3.9 damage

 

Definitely not much of a downgrade...

[DesuVult]

+1 A isn't that big of a deal without something to back it up.  You are still trading at best equally into marine elites when you fight first.  The target for accursed weapons is T4 W1 4+ save.  An incremental increased over this drastically reduces any kind of return in value.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Don't know what to tell you my dude. They aren't as good as Power Fists except when they are, and they're usually better than lightning claws except when they aren't. That's how it do. They beat out Power Fists against Plague Marines when you factor in S6 vs S10, they lose out when killing Rhinos or Tacticals. They're better against anything one wound. Haven't done the math yet but they likely break evenish against Carnifexes.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Marshal Valkenhayn

[Abaddon303]

Terminators, if they end up being decent in the codex, will be a versatile and tough unit. Nothing more. I think if you're going looking for premium damage output with mathhammer you're always going to be disappointed. Are any other terminators kicking out large volumes of damage? or are they mainly in army lists to be tough to shift?
Even if terminators could kick out huge damage in melee, the best I can see from the leaks to boost chances of deepstrike are +1" to charge (I could have missed something). 8" charge is a hard pass for me to build around an expensive melee threat.

If you want melee output then you need to be looking at possessed or warp talons. 9" move on possessed is gross, BL strat to give them red corsairs advance and charge for a turn too if needed. 

Possessed are supposedly 5 attacks S5 -2 2D which means with an icon of wrath they're hitting as hard as sang guard.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Alright, we get it. Show us on the doll where the accursed weapon touched you.

[danodan123]

Word Bearers look like they're re-rolling hits so I'm thinking power fists for mine.

[TrawlingCleaner]

As I said when we first saw the rumours for Accursed weapons, I can definitely dig it. As with the changes to GSC weapons, it makes for a faster combat phase and is buff to most of the power weapons. It's definitely a shame to lose the reroll wounds for lightning claws without a doubt, however I would imagine there are ways to make them better. Without guessing at what strats will effect Accursed weapons, Mark of Khorne with an icon of Wrath will have these guys pumping out 4A each at S6, -4ap.

If the Exalted Champion Aura stays the same/similar, we still have access to reroll wounds. They're not going to be the combi-plasma deathball of old but they'll still pump out a lot of damage.

 

The loss of options/limited to box options for both Terminators and Legionnaries sucks for anyone who isn't a completely new collector. However I think the overall rules changes for the CSM book and the rules changes for the units themselves will stack that into a net positive for the faction.

 

I'm looking forward to the Eye's gaze moving somewhere else

[KalmDown]

If leaks from the Slaves to Darkness book aren' Aragorn charging the gates of Mordor, I don't know what is. I blame whoever dropped the whole Tyranid book.

 

As for accursed weapons - they will be fine. Terminators just won't be the answer to every threat like some people seem to want them to be.

[danodan123]

If leaks from the Slaves to Darkness book aren' Aragorn charging the gates of Mordor, I don't know what is. I blame whoever dropped the whole Tyranid book.

 

As for accursed weapons - they will be fine. Terminators just won't be the answer to every threat like some people seem to want them to be.

 

Sort of a hammer & anvil type scenario when people want them to be both.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've been holding off on starting NL till the new models drop, and I've got a pretty substantial World Eaters army built from Sigmar bits. Currently, all of my terminators are modeled with giant Skullseeker cleavers, so I accidentally made them WYSIWYG. Plan on using the 30K terminators with those wicked chainswords for the NL force, so covered there as well. 

 

All that remains is to wait and see if Crimson Butchers become a unit for WE rather than an upgrade.