What to expect from 9e CSM

[Mikoneo]

5 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Would Agents of Bile count with that? I dont want to have to use Fabulous Bill in every game but Emperors Children dont fit with my armys Hellraiser aesthetic. 

From memory of reviews Bill is no longer required to have a Creations of Bile Army

[Kaiju Soze]

5 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Would Agents of Bile count with that? I dont want to have to use Fabulous Bill in every game but Emperors Children dont fit with my armys Hellraiser aesthetic. 

Good news. According to the Goonhammer review, Fabulous Bill is optional.

[Khornestar]

Oh, cool! That requirement was always a big turn-off, glad to see it go.

[techsoldaten]

Very mixed feelings about the Codex. Enjoying how customizable everything is and how each Legion has it's own face. Am also aware the book contains no obvious competitive builds and it's unlikely monofaction CSM lists will be dominating tournaments once the book is released.

At this point, I've read through the book, except for pages that were indecipherable in review videos. Not worried about superdoctrines or build-your-own subfactions, those were nice to haves. The only thing that really stings is the jump pack situation, HQs are more starved for mobility than they ever were. 

The first big impression is that the strength of this book is overwhelming opponents with excessive melee attacks. Since the 9th edition meta seems to favor shooty armies like AdMech, Tau, and Drukhari, that likely means CSM will need to compensate with allies. My Chaos armies are Black Legion, World Eaters, Death Guard, Chaos Knights (Lucaris), and Daemons. As I start to think about lists, I'm leaning towards a Despoilers / War Dogs in a Knights detachment, or maybe some PBCs and Blight Haulers to even things out.

As much as shooting has improved, it's still a mid-ranged army that's ranged offense is strongest at double-tap range. Getting there will continue to be a problem. GW did something nice by buffing LRs and Predators (which I am considering very seriously over Havocs,) but I'm not convinced they are as effective as what other armies could bring. 

The second big impression is that there are melee tiers, but it's not clear which is better. Possessed are mean and can be buffed to the point they become anti-armor. In an anti-infantry role, however, Legionnaires with Chainswords might be almost as points-efficient while still being able to take advantage of Core. 20 man Cultist squads are pretty much as good as they were in 8th edition, but Mutants and Torments with the regen rule are pretty nasty themselves. Working out the mathhammer on these will take some time, but there are likely some alternatives to the Possessed Bomb that will work better in different situations.

The problem CSM will have with melee is overkill. It's nice that some models can get WS2 S8 AP-2 5A on the charge, but that's going to wipe out targets and leave units exposed. It might be better to do a decent amount of damage with many units than have a couple bruisers who wipe everything out the turn they charge.

The third big impression is GW did a good job preserving useful relics / Legion traits / WLTs and the new ones they introduced are mostly useful. This is probably the second biggest strength in the Codex. Black Legion still has something akin to the World Killers Stratagem, being able to take away ObSec from a unit means you can capture an objective (and maybe even cancel an action) with a single model. This could swing games. They also have a Stratagem that allows an HQ and a Core unit to teleport anywhere on the battlefield. For CSM, positioning has always been an issue, and redeployment means you can overload a flank or get someone away from a threat at will. 

CSM have suffered since 5th edition with the loss of options and the feeling of cookie cutter armies. 8th went a long way towards changing this paradigm, and 9th is refining that model quite a bit. What works for Emperor's Children will not necessarily work for Iron Warriors, and that's a good thing. While I'm certain one Legion will be considered stronger than all the others, it won't be as drastic as is was with Alphas in 8th.

The question I keep asking myself is how competitive this book is compared with other 9th edition Codexes. All the customizability is nice, but it's expensive. I think the best lists are going to be the ones that skillfully play their Stratagems / Relics to the limit and find ways to overcome what seem like deficiencies. These lists will be high-touch, similar to what Eldar were prior to 7th edition. They will be able to stand up to meta-leading factions, but I don't see any TAAC lists coming from this Codex on it's own. 

[Khornestar]

Time will tell if there are truly meta shattering builds within, but I would be surprised if our initial reaction of “not anywhere near top tier” doesn’t hold up in general. I’m not super concerned with tournament stats/win rates but I feel 50% should always be the goal. If we’re there, then great! Too strong and it isn’t fun for friends to play against.

As stated, every legion in the codex has their own unique flair and strengths. This too makes it a huge success for me. 

Really though, jump packs. Takes the whole book from an A to a B for me. Such a lame change, combined with most methods of rerolling charge distance being removed. Oh well, so it goes. There’s plenty to be positive and optimistic about.

[Lord Abaia]

I'm a bit bummed about there not being a custom warband option. Leafing through early 9th codexes and seeing they all had the option really got my creative juices flowing and to be honest was the main reason for me coming back to the hobby after a three-year hiatus. Having said that, there are so many good warlord traits, stratagems, and relics that are legion specific that just picking a counts-as legion will certainly be better in terms of gameplay.

I will still be working on my renegade warband as a painting and writing exercise. I'm just going to wait until I get the codex in my hands before I start trying to pick the legion rules I want to use as trying to parse all the fragmented info from reviews, leaks, and teases is mentally exhausting.

[BitsHammer]

I'm still parsing this book through my brain but I fired off an email for the obvious stuff so if anyone wants to copy and paste it and send it in themselves to 40kfaq@gwplc.com as well here it is for your copy and pasting needs:

Dear Design Team,

After reviewing the previews of the Chaos Marine Codex I have a couple of questions about the new book even though it isn't out yet.

Q: The Chaos Lord with jump pack was put on range rotation but completely removed as an option from the book. Was this a mistake? Additionally people really like using Harkon to make their own custom Chaos Lords with Jump packs, so even if the option was removed intentionally could we please have it back for armies who want to build Raptor heavy forces such as the Night Lords? If not, could we at least get a relic option to be able to take a Jump Pack for Chaos Lords?

Q: Could we get a designer's note for the change to the wargear restrictions available? This new book has invalidated a lot of existing armies and it has left people feeling frustrated so some insight into why certain things were done would go a long way into helping ease that frustration.

Q: In this new book Daemonkin units can't take Marks of Chaos unless you take them in World Eaters or Emperor's Children armies. Is this a mistake?

Cheers,

[NAME HERE]

[techsoldaten]

3 hours ago, Khornestar said:

Time will tell if there are truly meta shattering builds within, but I would be surprised if our initial reaction of “not anywhere near top tier” doesn’t hold up in general. I’m not super concerned with tournament stats/win rates but I feel 50% should always be the goal. If we’re there, then great! Too strong and it isn’t fun for friends to play against.

As stated, every legion in the codex has their own unique flair and strengths. This too makes it a huge success for me. 

Really though, jump packs. Takes the whole book from an A to a B for me. Such a lame change, combined with most methods of rerolling charge distance being removed. Oh well, so it goes. There’s plenty to be positive and optimistic about.

Agreed.

I don't want to play the hottest Codex, already did that with Death Guard. Nowhere to go but down as the meta evolves.

That said, concerned with the question of how monofaction CSM stack up against other factions in non-competitive games. Thinking about AdMech / Drukhari in particular, they each have multiple ways to chew through MEQ. Or Custodes / Tyranids, who have a significant edge over CSM in melee. Or Primaris with 30" guns, it's like they get a free round of shooting before we get into range.

We will see some creative lists that make the most out of the unique strengths of each Legion. But my guess is the CSM lists that do well in competitive environments will include allied detachments from other Codexes.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

38 minutes ago, techsoldaten said:

Agreed.

I don't want to play the hottest Codex, already did that with Death Guard. Nowhere to go but down as the meta evolves.

That said, concerned with the question of how monofaction CSM stack up against other factions in non-competitive games. Thinking about AdMech / Drukhari in particular, they each have multiple ways to chew through MEQ. Or Custodes / Tyranids, who have a significant edge over CSM in melee. Or Primaris with 30" guns, it's like they get a free round of shooting before we get into range.

We will see some creative lists that make the most out of the unique strengths of each Legion. But my guess is the CSM lists that do well in competitive environments will include allied detachments from other Codexes.

One interesting thing about Heavy Weapons....the Khorne Prayer from a Priest can allow you to have Khorne Havocs or Helbrutes in Destruction all game for lots of exploding sixes. Combined with the Black Legion's +1 to hit closest target, and their ability to occasionally borrow the Iron Warriors Legion Trait, this could possibly bring some pain.

Forge World could also help in a broad sense and a Lord of Skulls with Armor of Contempt and its new save could get interesting.

[darkseren1ty]

Ok, moving swiftly on from the whinging and loaning. 
 

did anyone else think about what combos we can make?

tbh, I’m leaning towards the chaos knight wardoggo spam of 11 dogs (1 with helm of doggos) and Abaddon as the warlord. He can give them all rerolls of 1 to hit. Combined with helm of doggos, they’ll have rerolls of 1 to hit and wound. Plus Abaddon is a beatstick of note so your melee needs are covered. I reckon it could be a new meta list.

[Slave to Darkness]

Glad I dont have to take Bile in every game, I love the ol fella and he was the first special character I ever used back in 2nd edition (everybody bought Abby so I thought Id give the underdog a go) but Id like to mix up who I use to lead my army as I have converted so many characters. 

[BitsHammer]

Open letter (not by me) for the return of the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack along with the ability to sign: https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack

Edited June 26, 2022 by Fulkes

[SarLuther]

20 minutes ago, Fulkes said:

Open letter (not by me) for the return of the Chaos Lord with Jump Pack along with the ability to sign: https://wargamerdad.com/blog/chaos-space-marines-bring-back-the-jump-pack

Yes I shared this afternoon the petition on my FB groups. If we are A LOT they could listen to us

Edited June 26, 2022 by SarLuther

[ChiefBones]

On 6/25/2022 at 3:35 AM, Hathor42 said:

Why sad? So far you can still do all the stuff they did before plus whatever they get for make their own warband.

Plus, it's very on point for chaos to be ok shooting into their own forces to kill the enemy especially cultists. 

My understanding is that there is no build a warband in this codex. 

[ChiefBones]

21 hours ago, GreaterChickenofTzeentch said:

Since I was a 3.0/Index Astartes player, there's a lot in here I don't mind. The Jump Pack issue stings and hopefully enough letters will fix that, but I'm fairly happy overall.

The warbands are something of an issue, but many of them already had overlapping playstyles with the Legions (Crimson Slaughter and Word Bearers, Flawless Host and EC, etc.). Re-skinning some of them isn't too hard and many of their relics, stratagems and other bits have survived.

For the Purge, for example: The Orb of Unlife and their "shoot into combat" stratagem are still there as generally available effects and their reliance on heavy weaponry can be mimicked really well by running them using the Iron Warriors rules (will also boost durability in a thematic way). 

For the Slaughter, Terrifying Phenomena, the Blade of the Relentless are still around and they always used a lot of Chosen, so the power up for those guys after killing things will be helpful to represent them.

Brazen Beasts started out as Khorne Daemonkin, and that's real easy to do with the new World Eaters rules, given that many Khorne Daemon buffs will still apply to your dudes and Summoning still exists in the Daemon codex for now.

The Scourged Stratagem is still around and running them as, of all things, Tzeentch Night Lords seems to approximate their combination of disruption and reroll effects....though an argument could be made for Alpha Legion or even Word Bearers.

As for Possessed, we're back to IA/3.0 where everyone got generic unmarked Possessed EXCEPT the four god Legions, who each got their own. Daeath Guard have their own, World Eaters and EC Possessed may not get the Mark benefits, but they still get the KHORNE and SLAANESH keywords so they can use the appropriate stratagems and other effects. Now we just need Tzeentch Possessed somewhere like the Thousand Sons make out of captured enemies in the novels.....along with a buff to bring DG Possessed up to snuff.

This isn't necessarily what other folks want, and that's OK, but I personally see a bunch of potential in all the screencaps I've taken from the videos on offer.

For me, the main play style draw for the Purge was the army wide rerolls, so I went heavy on MW causing stuff, like my Soulburner Decimators or Daemon Shells from my Lord, and nigh on guaranteed normal wounds like Puscleaver, also on my lord. Shooting into combat was a fairly rare occurrence, though my use of the Orb was maybe 50/50. 

[Surreal Cruelty]

I like the rules in this codex, I think they are good, but I am primarily a hobbyist who likes to be able to play with the models I kit-bash/convert etc.  That means I'm actually pretty unhappy with it.

I think the petition should be kind of expanded regarding all of the HQ choices.  So, sure, they "range rotated" out a lot of those models that had the options, but many of them.  Only recently did they get rid of the Sorcerer with the Force Sword, and Tzeench sorcerers have power swords, so why can't they join the Black Legion for example.  Sigh.  I think Out of the Box options only are just dumb, and take a LOT of the hobby out of the game.  Almost like the pendulum is swinging from "Were primarily a miniature company" to far the other direction, and they still can't manage rules that don't break the game with half their new codexes anyway.

I'm going to end up getting the codex, but, I think, until the WE codex comes out, I'm probably not buying many more chaos models (I have plenty unpainted), and going to wait for World Eaters to come out.  Till then, I think I am just going to play Kill Team.  I might play a game of two with larger forces, I have enough already painted, and I have tons of cultists already and a plan to convert some into Dark Commune.

I will note, when the second round of Space Marine codexes come out, if they do the same thing, a lot of Space Wolf players probably going to be feelin' the curse of the Wulfen.  Not to mention all the Smash-Lords.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Surreal Cruelty

[Guzzlrr]

I Had a 2k battle last night Black Legion Vs Blood angels, I like The mark of Nurgle, the Icon is a nice extra Especially when fighting tough foes auto wounding with a melta that also procked another shot is fun, Transhuman (Grand Fathers Blessings) is deffo going to make me stick to MSU, Transhuman made My terminators survive longer than they had any right.

Quite like the Doctrines its a fun addition and great there's many ways to mess around with it, Mixed feeling about the oblits will probably always stick to the Salvo Profile unless im shooting something particularly tough and has a high Armour.

Really Enjoyed using the Master of Possession, I may have him as an auto include Just for Pact of flesh what an awesome ability. (chief apothecary on core and Demonkin as well as can heal characters) Cursed earth saved my Possessed which did well but did struggle a little with AOC not going to lie but didn't smash every combat as much as I would have liked.

Chosen were pretty dope managed to interrupt and finish off a wounded mephiston as well as score me Chaos RND Mark of Khorne is probably better on legionaries with chainswords though I think

Balefire acolytes were fun were quite a decent way to get a few wounds of after i disembarked from a transport and was pretty good to use in conjunction with me Melta and havok autocannon, can see me settling with a 10 man Legionnaire squad in a rhino with plasma and melta like I did in 4th and 5th that with a bale fire could do some damage, equip the rest with Chainswords and MOK could be nasty.  

The Back legion specific stuff is pretty cool, i really like the +1 to hit with good positioning helps alot, especially with the more Aggressive style Black legion Feels like its supposed to be played.

Abaddon Is an absolute Beast. he just Carved a crimson Path right through the blood angels, was Absolutely Glorious ! He may have used confluence of traitors on Abaddon to advance and charge and catch a big squad of Sang Guard with its pants down. 

anyway that's all the thoughts i had atm, hoping to try out a very different list if I can get a game out on Thursday, try out the other marks and priest, and dust off Haarkan.

use some demon engines and maybe a dico lord 

 

 

one question on a rule interaction my friend had what's everyone's take on what Exactly the Libre hereticus dose specifically in reference to cursed earth and other spells 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Guzzlrr

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

22 hours ago, Fulkes said:

I'm still parsing this book through my brain but I fired off an email for the obvious stuff so if anyone wants to copy and paste it and send it in themselves to 40kfaq@gwplc.com as well here it is for your copy and pasting needs:

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm super excited for the new codex, but the thing that really bugs me the most about the new book, is not even the lack of a jumppack option, though that is annoying! It's the removal of combi weapons from lords and champions, why? This makes no sense whatsoever. there are plenty of places that they can get them from, so why have they been removed? That is seriouosly the most frustrating thing for me. I really hate having to remodel minis that I've spent hours crafting and painting. It was bad enough with my terminators (those retrictions are also mind-bogglingly ridiculous from both a lore and a marketing perspective)!

[Schlitzaf]

Wait CSM Sgt equivalent don’t get Combi Weapon Access?

[Guzzlrr]

Just now, Schlitzaf said:

Wait CSM Sgt equivalent don’t get Combi Weapon Access?

Unfortunately not

[TheWillTheWay]

It was a weird transition for every codex that has come out. Didn't have combi weapon-melee weapon comptibility at the end of 7th? I didn't play then so I don't know for sure. But then we had to choose between one or the other for 1st 8th codex right? Then in 2nd 8th we got melee-combi compatibility back. Now we just straight up lose combi weapon options.

 

I just do not understand the author's logic here, if there is any.

Edited June 27, 2022 by TheWillTheWay

[Guzzlrr]

11 minutes ago, TheWillTheWay said:

It was a weird transition for every codex that has come out. Didn't have combi weapon-melee weapon comptibility at the end of 7th? I didn't play then so I don't know for sure. But then we had to choose between one or the other for 1st 8th codex right? Then in 2nd 8th we got melee-combi compatibility back. Now we just straight up lose combi weapon options.

 

I just do not understand the author's logic here, if there is any.

Gw seems to be moving to a "what's in the box" method of selling models. I personally think this is a byproduct of the Chapterhouse Lawsuit.

 

the GW of old that was like "here's rules go convert" seems to be gone for the time being

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They tried to soften the blow by created Accursed Weapons so for Termies & Chosen, it doesn't matter what's in the box -- the weapons are mostly the same profile.

 

I'm not saying I like the "build the box" rules GW seems to pushing, but I do understand that it makes model building easier and cheaper for new players.  Those of us who have been around the block a few times are *not* GW's primary market.

[Guzzlrr]

19 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

They tried to soften the blow by created Accursed Weapons so for Termies & Chosen, it doesn't matter what's in the box -- the weapons are mostly the same profile.

 

I'm not saying I like the "build the box" rules GW seems to pushing, but I do understand that it makes model building easier and cheaper for new players.  Those of us who have been around the block a few times are *not* GW's primary market.

 

 

Yeah i found this to be a little weird myself, i was expecting to be able to Choose powerfists (Like in the terminator squad) but alas nope.

I do prefer the fact they all just have Chainsword level power swords I've been leaning this way this whole edition, but with BL having +1 WS on the charge I was looking forward to fisting some folk. Looks like chosen are more like a bit's box for legionnaires now

 

I think Gw has a Design first rule later approach, but it's creating weird inconsistencies now, that are quite frustrating to be fair.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Guzzlrr
Grammer / Spelling

[TheWillTheWay]

36 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

They tried to soften the blow by created Accursed Weapons so for Termies & Chosen, it doesn't matter what's in the box -- the weapons are mostly the same profile.

 

I'm not saying I like the "build the box" rules GW seems to pushing, but I do understand that it makes model building easier and cheaper for new players.  Those of us who have been around the block a few times are *not* GW's primary market.

So here's the thing, I only truly became aware of this hobby in Fall of 2018 when I found out noise marines exist via a meme, and got a bunch of minis including a few old sculpt CSM and terminators over the following few months. I had been planning to build them with all plasma weapons and was very disappointed to find that there were none in the box (Old sculpt termies). That didn't stop me from taking the plasma pistols and plasma guns from the CSM box, gluing them all to bolters, then assembling the models. It was also totally legal to just build what's in the box anyway, and I was going to do it before I thought of the aforementioned conversion.

Obviously I may not be a representative sample. Maybe they're focusing on people who walk into GW stores without even knowing what Warhammer is a convincing them to buy models. I still don't understand the strategy, when the barrier to play a 500 point game with unpainted minis out of a combat patrol box is like $200 including supplies, and probably about 10 hours of your time gluing and learning rules.  

Maybe this targets getting rich children into the hobby? Money is not such an issue for them, their parents will buy it to get them off the computer. But dashed expectations when you open the box (like I felt) can still be a source of frustration and a big turn off for young payers, so just lower their expectations to avoid that.

I'm probably overthinking this but man GW just made the weirdest loadout restrictions I can't help but try to rationalize it.

Spoiler

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by TheWillTheWay
Wanted to put the meme image in a spoiler so the post doesnt take up twice the space.