What to expect from 9e CSM

[Guzzlrr]

9 minutes ago, TheWillTheWay said:

So here's the thing, I only truly became aware of this hobby in Fall of 2018 when I found out noise marines exist via a meme, and got a bunch of minis including a few old sculpt CSM and terminators over the following few months. I had been planning to build them with all plasma weapons and was very disappointed to find that there were none in the box (Old sculpt termies). That didn't stop me from taking the plasma pistols and plasma guns from the CSM box, gluing them all to bolters, then assembling the models. It was also totally legal to just build what's in the box anyway, and I was going to do it before I thought of the aforementioned conversion.

Obviously I may not be a representative sample. Maybe they're focusing on people who walk into GW stores without even knowing what Warhammer is a convincing them to buy models. I still don't understand the strategy, when the barrier to play a 500 point game with unpainted minis out of a combat patrol box is like $200 including supplies, and probably about 10 hours of your time gluing and learning rules.  

Maybe this targets getting rich children into the hobby? Money is not such an issue for them, their parents will buy it to get them off the computer. But adversity in the modelling process can still be a source of frustration, so just make sure that basically the only way to build the model is with the pieces in the box.

I'm probably overthinking this but man GW just made the weirdest loadout restrictions I can't help but try to rationalize it.

I think what @Iron Father Ferrum alluding was too was if you get a new player, and he's got this one Cool unit but because they designed it with zero thoughts on how it will affect the rules the rules team have tried to make it easier to

A figure out what your guy has to hit with 

B not waste £30/45 on a box that's now next to useless because you added the wrong weapons

C it does speed the game up

to touch on what Ferrum said i also don't agree with the in the box stuff, but I could fathom why they made it easier for new people. easy for us Being Decades in the hobby some of us LOL

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Guzzlrr

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

14 hours ago, ChiefBones said:

For me, the main play style draw for the Purge was the army wide rerolls, so I went heavy on MW causing stuff, like my Soulburner Decimators or Daemon Shells from my Lord, and nigh on guaranteed normal wounds like Puscleaver, also on my lord. Shooting into combat was a fairly rare occurrence, though my use of the Orb was maybe 50/50. 

Playing Purged via Iron Warriors gives a lot of shooting improvements that can approximate those rerolls (Architect of Destruction, Methodical Annihilation, Tank Destroyers), especially when you tack on the situational auto-wounds via Nurgle icons and add things like Warp-Marked from the Master of Possession or Dark Apostle prayers. It won't be identical, but you can get pretty close to how you played them, while also representing their old bombardment-focused variant army lists in Forge World sources.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Another cool thing is seeing how the different "Slaves to Darkness" units interact. Rubric Marines lose their "Brotherhood of Sorcerers" and therefore their Invuln, but they gain Let the Galaxy Burn and Mark of Tzeentch allows them to ignore the first failed save. They also use Dark Hereticus powers and therefore get Skeins of Fate (4++) for free on their Champion. Hopefully they rule in an FAQ that their Icon gives them the ICON keyword (and the same for Plague Marines), since Noise Marines and Berzerkers DO get the ICON rule.
 

They don't get the traits from the Legion they join, but they do get the keyword and can benefit from stratagems, buy Champion relics (which key on "Aspring" in "Aspiring Sorcerer"), etc.

 

With the Daemon Shells stratagem for +6 range and +1 AP, plus exploding sixes, or maybe with +2 shots per Warpflamer from Let the Galaxy Burn, they could be pretty solid (any weapon whose name includes the word "flame" counts per the Weapon Definitions page in the Codex). Not quite as durable or as psychically powerful, but they gain in terms of standard offense.

 

Between that and Tzeentch Terminators, characters, and Havocs, Sons of the Cyclops might actually be a pretty fun Black Legion build.

EDIT: Almost forgot.....Black Rune of Damnation on the Aspiring Sorcerer could be fun and thematic, giving enemies -1 to wound against the unit.

Edited June 27, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[MegaVolt87]

7 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

They tried to soften the blow by created Accursed Weapons so for Termies & Chosen, it doesn't matter what's in the box -- the weapons are mostly the same profile.

 

I'm not saying I like the "build the box" rules GW seems to pushing, but I do understand that it makes model building easier and cheaper for new players.  Those of us who have been around the block a few times are *not* GW's primary market.

 

And yet new players to the 2.0 HH are adapting just fine to the old model of equipping units the old way. Separate weapon packs that go beyond base boxes would solve a lot of 40k problems and we can return to the old way, the better way of army building. 

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

And yet new players to the 2.0 HH are adapting just fine to the old model of equipping units the old way. Separate weapon packs that go beyond base boxes would solve a lot of 40k problems and we can return to the old way, the better way of army building. 

That's because with HH you can actually get all the options you want to build without needing to buy multiples of the same box.

[DesuVult]

I think plague marines may be better in the CSM codex than in the DG codex.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

17 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

I think plague marines may be better in the CSM codex than in the DG codex.

Plague Marines in Black Legion or Iron Warriors would give them a run for their money, though the free gear gives them new life in DG as well. One of their main problems there was cost. I'd be interested in seeing a side by side comparison from someone more mathematically inclined.

[MegaVolt87]

1 hour ago, Fulkes said:

That's because with HH you can actually get all the options you want to build without needing to buy multiples of the same box.

 

HH actually encourages you to buy multiple boxes still, it doesn't really change anything except is clear on what you need to buy and is available. 40k isn't and would benefit from. For example, in one DG rite of war you can take Legion Heavy support squads in troops, so if you want x20 missile launcher guys (x2 10 man units) for AA and MEQ clearing, you still need x2 heavy weapons box of x10 ML to upgrade the 20 man tac squad box and have a spare x20 HB's (x10 of each per box). GW clearly isn't afraid of selling you/us multiple boxes as long as they have a clear path to utilize for customization. 

[BrainFireBob]

Just rip off the arms. People act like you put the arms on as a new player, that mini is used up, done forever, gone.

 

Makes as much sense as throwing them in the bin when they fail armor saves.

 

Who are these new players who find out they wanted their arms to be different but can't fix it?

Edited June 28, 2022 by BrainFireBob
Typo

[RapatoR]

4 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

And yet new players to the 2.0 HH are adapting just fine to the old model of equipping units the old way. Separate weapon packs that go beyond base boxes would solve a lot of 40k problems and we can return to the old way, the better way of army building. 

This, so much this. A lot of restrictions in this (and other) codexes wouldn't be necessary if GW had "bitz store" or sold weapon packs.

[Guzzlrr]

I understand the frustration behind restrictions, hopefully they fix the jump lord one as they cold fix that. But I am a bit surprised at the negativity around this release. Imo this is shaping up to be the best Generic Chaos release since the traitor legion Supplement. I'm hoping some opinions may change when you get a couple games in.

 

I for one am one happy bunny.

[DesuVult]

5 minutes ago, Guzzlrr said:

I understand the frustration behind restrictions, hopefully they fix the jump lord one as they cold fix that. But I am a bit surprised at the negativity around this release. Imo this is shaping up to be the best Generic Chaos release since the traitor legion Supplement. I'm hoping some opinions may change when you get a couple games in.

 

I for one am one happy bunny.

The best release since the traitor legion supplement is not a high bar to set.

[Guzzlrr]

16 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

The best release since the traitor legion supplement is not a high bar to set.

 

Maybe for you. But for me it was everything I wanted for my Iron Warriors and chaos in general. I loved that supplement even though I only could use it for like 2 month lol

[techsoldaten]

2 hours ago, Guzzlrr said:

I understand the frustration behind restrictions, hopefully they fix the jump lord one as they cold fix that. But I am a bit surprised at the negativity around this release. Imo this is shaping up to be the best Generic Chaos release since the traitor legion Supplement. I'm hoping some opinions may change when you get a couple games in.

I for one am one happy bunny.

Possible you are overestimating the level of discontent.

Feels like disappointment breaks down into a few camps:

- The people who didn't get something new they wanted (custom Legion traits)

- The people who lost something the liked (Jump Pack Lords, weapon options for Chosen, useful Psychic Powers, etc)

- The people who don't like the direction it's going (Codex LatD)

- The people concerned about relative strength / competitive viability

There's something to say about each of these areas, but none is definitive. Doesn't feel like there's some overwhelming damning flaw so much as a number of areas where the Codex falls short.

Relative strength is mostly what concerns me, feels like Eldar / Tau / AdMech / other shooty armies are at a big advantage. Could be wrong, who knows?

[Toldavf]

Really all we have to do now is identify which parts of our Dex will be nerfed. Following gw's pattern of releases it is almost certain to happen. Possesed seem a likely candidate as does the black rune (this thing is nuts imagine a toughness 5 squad with -1 to wound roles against them). 

some of the things you can do with a lord are pretty insane. 10, str 8, ap -3, d2 with full rerolls to hit and ignoring rules that ignore wounds for one example (not a powerfist build).  Being strength 14 with a thunderhammer is something most legions can do but is not even close to some of the strongest builds. 

If you are willing to spend cp you can have some very naughty builds. 

Certain legion traits are also a bit good, so I wouldn't be suppressed to see a change to them. 

Otherwise none of our units seem dramatically under costed except maybe abby. 

[RapatoR]

Just to be clear, I am extremely happy about the codex. My struggle is in seeing a standpoint from which these restrictions are better solution than a bitz store or weapon packs.

[BitsHammer]

1 hour ago, RapatoR said:

Just to be clear, I am extremely happy about the codex. My struggle is in seeing a standpoint from which these restrictions are better solution than a bitz store or weapon packs.

GW had to remove a massive amount of stuff out of circulation just to make room for HH. I don't know if they have enough space to start stocking weapons packs for all their 40k lines too.

[DesuVult]

6 hours ago, Guzzlrr said:

Maybe for you. But for me it was everything I wanted for my Iron Warriors and chaos in general. I loved that supplement even though I only could use it for like 2 month lol

Saying it is the best release since the traitor supplement would mean it is better than everything after the traitor supplement up until now but not necessarily the traitor supplement.  Being the best release since the traitor supplement more or less means being better than the 8e codex.

4 hours ago, techsoldaten said:

Possible you are overestimating the level of discontent.

Feels like disappointment breaks down into a few camps:

- The people who didn't get something new they wanted (custom Legion traits)

- The people who lost something the liked (Jump Pack Lords, weapon options for Chosen, useful Psychic Powers, etc)

- The people who don't like the direction it's going (Codex LatD)

- The people concerned about relative strength / competitive viability

There's something to say about each of these areas, but none is definitive. Doesn't feel like there's some overwhelming damning flaw so much as a number of areas where the Codex falls short.

Relative strength is mostly what concerns me, feels like Eldar / Tau / AdMech / other shooty armies are at a big advantage. Could be wrong, who knows?

My problem and the problem that some other people seem to have is that the book just appears badly designed and written.  There is significant unnecessary complication, terrible internal balance, and wild inconsistency.  This is even apparent in some of the reviews with how seemingly every reviewer is able to get multiple noteworthy things wrong with what can take marks, icons, is core, and what buffs that allows.  You may be inclined to think dark apostles would work well possessed (as some reviewers did), except that as possessed lack core what dark apostles can provided possessed is exceedingly limited.  As other reviewers did you may think what can take a mark could take an icon and vice versa, except terminators cannot take icons despite taking marks and possessed cannot take marks despite taking an icon.  Possessed and other daemonkin cannot take marks but the daemon prince must take a mark.  Possessed can take an icon but it must be unaligned while aligned terminators cannot take icons but chosen can.  The Emperor's Children section sent one particular group through quite the loop on how it affected rules and that makes sense, the EC rules in regards to marking and bonuses from those marks are a mess.  I would be fine with accursed weapons if they were both good and consistent.  Instead several units have a wild array of inconsistent weapons.  A justification for accursed weapons is cutting down the power weapon list but those power weapons still exist and more have been added.  Nothing was trimmed down, no simplicity was added, just some options for some units removed with incredible inconsistency and options changed in some places with equal inconsistency.  Chosen power fists are accursed weapons but terminator power fists are not.  Legionnaire champions don't get accursed weapons and keep power weapons while also adding daemon blades and tainted chainaxe.  Raptor champions can only take a power fist or power sword.  Even what was removed was inconsistent.  The chaos lord model only has a thunder hammer but gets some weapon options while the jump pack was removed.  The exalted champion datasheet has returned with the equipment it was modelled with but the model has been gone longer than some people in this thread have been in the hobby.

 

edit: And after waiting through so much of 8th and 9th the special rule we are granted as a faction is just doctrines.

Edited June 28, 2022 by DesuVult

[RapatoR]

On an unrelated note, I love how the BL units with unmarked icons autopass Combat Attrition Tests.

[acrozatarim]

There are quite a few bits and pieces about the new codex that annoy me or are a bit disappointing - but the more I ponder actually building lists, the happier I am in general with the book.

[Prot]

I don't know if CSM is going to 'rock the meta' but I do know enough cool rules and tweaks exist that it will keep me busy, and content for a while.

Honestly tournaments still aren't back to normal here, and probably won't be for a while. So I try to stay competitive in a larger group of regulars I play. And I think the codex will keep me those games vs the regular nasties: Tau/Custodes/DG (I think theyr'e better now)/Dark Eldar, etc.

What still surprises me is the Chosen. I just can't figure out what they were thinking with that unit, or what it's really supposed to do.

I really wish I hadn't have sold my Black Legion as I fought tooth and nail for years with them to get a win a tournament, and they look so much better now!

I am still deciding between Iron Warriors (which I don't think are as bad as people think) and Red Corsairs.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

6 hours ago, RapatoR said:

Just to be clear, I am extremely happy about the codex. My struggle is in seeing a standpoint from which these restrictions are better solution than a bitz store or weapon packs.

Makes even less sense when they sell a pack of 5 Space Marine Jump Packs through direct order and you can also order a Night Lords Praetor with a Jump Pack via Forge World.

Neither of those have been rotated out.

Edited June 28, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[gaurdian31]

They also still sell the Night Lords Chaos Lord with combi-weapon and powerfist even though it looks like Chaos Lords can't take combi-weapons anymore. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Night-Lords-Hero

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

5 hours ago, Fulkes said:

GW had to remove a massive amount of stuff out of circulation just to make room for HH. I don't know if they have enough space to start stocking weapons packs for all their 40k lines too.

Ironically, many of those Heresy items that they are apparently dropping 40k items for would be usable on 40k CSM if they weren't removed from the Codex, especially the rumored combi-weapon packs.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

15 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

They also still sell the Night Lords Chaos Lord with combi-weapon and powerfist even though it looks like Chaos Lords can't take combi-weapons anymore. https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Night-Lords-Hero

 

Also, I'm gonna laugh bitterly if the Possessed box doesn't even come with an Icon.