GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bulwyf said: I hate the NL changes. We went from the leaks to have the +1 advance and charge legion trait gone. The +1 to wound against LD6 units was looking great. Then they changed it to LD5. Now it is worthless. Most armies are high leadership so that rule becomes basically worthless. Warlord traits and relics are very weak, so weak as to be completely useless. I did not think I would envy my 8th edition rules for NL after psychic awakening but my army is actually worse with a new book. Did I mention my jump pack lord and dual LC termies are now gone? Fun stuff. Thanks GW! Weird that there is no way to get below LD6 if unit leadership is based on highest model for anything other than Morale Tests. Right now it doesn't seem to say either way in the core rules (highest or lowest to determine unit) and Night Lords + Fearsome maxes out at -3 due to auras not stacking with themselves. Hopefully they clarify whether highest or lowest is used for this. Hoping lowest. If I got any of that wrong, anyone please feel free to jump in. Edited June 30, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch BitsHammer 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toldavf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 1 hour ago, GreaterChickenofTzeentch said: Weird that there is no way to get below LD6 if unit leadership is based on highest model for anything other than Morale Tests. Right now it doesn't seem to say either way in the core rules (highest or lowest to determine unit) and Night Lords + Fearsome maxes out at -3 due to auras not stacking with themselves. Hopefully they clarify whether highest or lowest is used for this. Hoping lowest. If I got any of that wrong, anyone please feel free to jump in. The problem with allot of the fearsome units is support, only a prince and the disco lord can keep up both of which are just shy of 200 points. The problem after that is if you run into any ld 9 things then fearsome means nothing and that's generally where you need the buff most. Terminators/marine vetrans, any chaos marines, tau suits, ect to say nothing of custards or necrons (against them you are just blank till they are at half str). In 8th we could easily manage -3/-4 ld and it didn't even cap there. Now it caps at -4 and realistically you can only get -3 but generally you get at -2 which vs the vast majority of units isn't enough to make any defiance. Out of the melee focused legions it is fair to say that we are the weakest. We also got reemed a bit in the stratagem section there are some nice things in there, but we lost allot of our best strats too. Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 To be fair, though, Lord of Terror, the Legion Trait, One Piece at a Time, and Fearsome can detonate many enemy units that they hit as a combo (On a Disco Lord + a Daemon Prince, maybe). They're almost certain to fail the Morale Test (can be insured further with 1CP for Terrifying Phenomena on one important target), then they're losing any model that rolls a 4 or worse (1 fails normally + 1 for Lord of Terror counting them as half strength + 1 for Legion Trait + 1 for One Piece at a Time) if Mr. Lord of Terror is standing within 6 inches and Mr. One Piece at a Time was the one who made combat. Whether that works against a broad field of opponents will be determined by how you play stratagems against their relics, auras, etc., but still interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Toldavf said: The problem with allot of the fearsome units is support, only a prince and the disco lord can keep up both of which are just shy of 200 points. The problem after that is if you run into any ld 9 things then fearsome means nothing and that's generally where you need the buff most. Terminators/marine vetrans, any chaos marines, tau suits, ect to say nothing of custards or necrons (against them you are just blank till they are at half str). In 8th we could easily manage -3/-4 ld and it didn't even cap there. Now it caps at -4 and realistically you can only get -3 but generally you get at -2 which vs the vast majority of units isn't enough to make any defiance. Out of the melee focused legions it is fair to say that we are the weakest. We also got reemed a bit in the stratagem section there are some nice things in there, but we lost allot of our best strats too. True, but a Terminator Lord/Sorcerer could also possibly help at an important point of attack. I already use a Terminator Sorcerer, plus a Disco Lord to team with my Heldrakes, and it gives me other benefits, so maybe I'm just forgetting that not everyone rolls that way. I also own a few Dreadclaws, so that occurs to me too. However, there really is no rule in 9th that says what a "Unit's Leadership" is, just one that says you use the highest for Morale. In some past editions, the highest model determined it, but in that case, some debuff effects also specified "lowest." I hope they either clarify that it IS lowest or maybe majority across the board except for Morale (like how majority Toughness works) or specify "lowest" for us in an FAQ. Edited June 30, 2022 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toldavf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 I feel like that is clutching at straws :/ Slave to Darkness and Bulwyf 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 28 minutes ago, GreaterChickenofTzeentch said: True, but a Terminator Lord/Sorcerer could also possibly help at an important point of attack. I already use a Terminator Sorcerer, plus a Disco Lord to team with my Heldrakes, and it gives me other benefits, so maybe I'm just forgetting that not everyone rolls that way. I also own a few Dreadclaws, so that occurs to me too. However, there really is no rule in 9th that says what a "Unit's Leadership" is, just one that says you use the highest for Morale. In some past editions, the highest model determined it, but in that case, some debuff effects also specified "lowest." I hope they either clarify that it IS lowest or maybe majority across the board except for Morale (like how majority Toughness works) or specify "lowest" for us in an FAQ. You use the highest LD in a unit like a squad sarge. The +1 to wound on LD5 is worthless. There is no other way to say it. Good luck trying to get LD5 on a LD 9 or LD 10 units which is the majority of units in the game. Very few armies will be affected by our legion trait which makes it worthless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toldavf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 43 minutes ago, Bulwyf said: You use the highest LD in a unit like a squad sarge. The +1 to wound on LD5 is worthless. There is no other way to say it. Good luck trying to get LD5 on a LD 9 or LD 10 units which is the majority of units in the game. Very few armies will be affected by our legion trait which makes it worthless. 1 in 3 custodes are effected by our trait, I assume they still come in squads of 3 :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) For the record half armies or more in the game is LD8 on dudebro Joe’s Sgt (Marines), Battle Sisters, Tau, the Dark Eldar, Harlequins Other half is mostly Ld7 Gaurd, Admech CW Aeldari are LD7 or LD8 (Gaurdians & Aspects Respectively), Chaos Daemons, etc Then you Nids, whose LD all over the place and Orks Mob rules. Edited June 30, 2022 by Schlitzaf Clarity Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Schlitzaf said: For the record half armies or more in the game is LD8 on dudebro Joe’s Sgt (Marines), Battle Sisters, Tau, the Dark Eldar, Harlequins Other half is mostly Ld7 Gaurd, Admech CW Aeldari are LD7 or LD8 (Gaurdians & Aspects Respectively), Chaos Daemons, etc Then you Nids, whose LD all over the place and Orks Mob rules. Don't forget Necrons are Ld10 army wide. Bulwyf 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 4 hours ago, Toldavf said: 1 in 3 custodes are effected by our trait, I assume they still come in squads of 3 :P This is where GW needs to clarify what "unit leadership" actually means. If it follows the same rules for Morale phase then you take the highest model in the unit. Which for most armies are either L10 or L8 or L9. So for space marines for example that means you won't see your legion trait actually do anything. I hope GW clarifies it to go by the lowest morale model in the unit but let's be honest, you even said it before, this is clutching at straws. NL has never had good rules in the history of the game. The tradition continues with this codex. stayduned 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 As I was working on building a Spartan I was mulling over this book and I really feel like if they just put Accursed Weapons on the melee list (and maybe even gave the weapon +1 attack if a model has two) a lot of the frustration would be gone because we'd have the freedom to do a lot with melee weapons on a number of models without any major issue to the rules. Do that and let the Chosen Champion take a Power Fist and I feel like a good chunk of my frustration with this book would be sorted. Still wouldn't be thrilled about not having jump packs, but I'd be happier about modelling. As it stands I'm starting to look at taking lighting claws on my Legionnaire Champs and running them as Daemon Blades. Sure, they won't get shred, but they'll basically have rending and will shank people at -2AP, 2 Damage which is good enough for me. That said, I have to say the thing I'm starting to dislike the most about the NL rule is that the bonus to wound only works on melee weapons, which is a real shame honestly because that's such a flavorful thing from HH that shows how they'll fight dirty rather than just try and get into a straight up fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metzombie Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 4 hours ago, Fulkes said: (and maybe even gave the weapon +1 attack if a model has two) You get +1 attack for each accursed weapon you have. stayduned and darkseren1ty 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5839974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Metzombie said: You get +1 attack for each accursed weapon you have. Yeah, I forgot about that while thinking about how to represent a pair lighting claws even if they don't want to give everyone lighting claws. Metzombie 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophet of the Despoiler Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 Thoughts on this list for a random pairings doubles tournament. Vanguard Traitoris Astartes - Incursion - Eternal War ( 3CP - 1000PT - 0PT ) Traitoris Astartes Vanguard Detachment ( 3CP - 1000PT ) SUB-FACTION: Black Legion HQ WARLORD: Master of Possession (120) MARK OF CHAOS: Tzeentch TRAITS: Roll for 1 random trait PSYCHIC POWERS: Pact of Flesh, Warp Marked RELICS: Eye of Tzeentch TROOPS Cultists Mob (50) 9x Chaos Cultist 1x Cultist Champion ELITES Chaos Terminator Squad (180) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 4x Terminator 1x Terminator Champion Chosen (165) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 2x Chosen 1x Chosen Champion : Chaos icon 2x Chosen: Combi-plasma Chosen (165) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 2x Chosen 1x Chosen Champion : Chaos icon 2x Chosen: Combi-plasma Possessed (140) 4x Possessed 1x Possessed Champion HEAVY SUPPORT Obliterators (180) 2x Obliterator Total Command Points: 3/6 Reinforcement Points: 0 Total Points: 1000/1000 Khornestar 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Prophet of the Despoiler said: Thoughts on this list for a random pairings doubles tournament. Vanguard Traitoris Astartes - Incursion - Eternal War ( 3CP - 1000PT - 0PT ) Traitoris Astartes Vanguard Detachment ( 3CP - 1000PT ) Spoiler SUB-FACTION: Black Legion HQ WARLORD: Master of Possession (120) MARK OF CHAOS: Tzeentch TRAITS: Roll for 1 random trait PSYCHIC POWERS: Pact of Flesh, Warp Marked RELICS: Eye of Tzeentch TROOPS Cultists Mob (50) 9x Chaos Cultist 1x Cultist Champion ELITES Chaos Terminator Squad (180) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 4x Terminator 1x Terminator Champion Chosen (165) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 2x Chosen 1x Chosen Champion : Chaos icon 2x Chosen: Combi-plasma Chosen (165) MARK OF CHAOS: Nurgle 2x Chosen 1x Chosen Champion : Chaos icon 2x Chosen: Combi-plasma Possessed (140) 4x Possessed 1x Possessed Champion HEAVY SUPPORT Obliterators (180) 2x Obliterator Total Command Points: 3/6 Reinforcement Points: 0 Total Points: 1000/1000 That's a lot of 3W infantry. Were it me, I'd drop one of the Chosen and double up on Possessed. Then I'd give the remaining Chosen plasma pistols. The Cultists are a good screen, but you might benefit from the additional melee. But that's just a quibble. Let us know how it goes. Khornestar 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophet of the Despoiler Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 45 minutes ago, techsoldaten said: That's a lot of 3W infantry. Were it me, I'd drop one of the Chosen and double up on Possessed. Then I'd give the remaining Chosen plasma pistols. The Cultists are a good screen, but you might benefit from the additional melee. But that's just a quibble. Let us know how it goes. I only have one squad sadly and don’t want to over commit until the new box is out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 Makes sense. We're all in the mushy stage where it's too hard to settle on anything and need more information. Looking forward to a batrep after the tournament. GreaterChickenofTzeentch and Khornestar 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
danodan123 Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 I'd love to know if the possessed box allows you to have two units (or one unit of 10?) without them looking the same as each other before I add more then one unit to a list! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophet of the Despoiler Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 I remember them saying it was a multi part kit but the accursed cultists is not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 5 hours ago, danodan123 said: I'd love to know if the possessed box allows you to have two units (or one unit of 10?) without them looking the same as each other before I add more then one unit to a list! I would put money down that, like the Chosen, there's five unique bodies and you can mix and match arms for a little variety. If you have or can get the two Possessed from the old Start Collecting box, they can be used for a little variety too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 Gal Vorbak are the same size, yes/no? Maschinenpriester 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 I've been told they're the same approximate size as the new Possessed, but I haven't seen a comparison shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschinenpriester Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 1 hour ago, BrainFireBob said: Gal Vorbak are the same size, yes/no? I own the old greater possessed from the start collecting, and they have a similar size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Anarax Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 On 7/1/2022 at 11:23 AM, danodan123 said: I'd love to know if the possessed box allows you to have two units (or one unit of 10?) without them looking the same as each other before I add more then one unit to a list! The book shows some arm and head swaps. You can't change the pose but you can change some arms and heads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
danodan123 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Warsmith Anarax said: The book shows some arm and head swaps. You can't change the pose but you can change some arms and heads. Ah good stuff, I've not had a chance to get the book yet but I'd love to see these differences, same with chosen, not sure how many variations of the standard 5 marines you can get, although I know there's different heads and a few weapon options but I don't think you get any more then the 5 backpacks and 10 shoulder plates Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page/126/#findComment-5840602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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