What to expect from 9e CSM

[Marshal Loss]

Thanks for all the excellent responses folks - I've edited the OP accordingly. Only including things that we can reasonably surmise based off existing books/GW statements for now. 

 

 

Great thread Marshal!

I have a question, if all the CSM units get +1w, what about the HQ choices? Do they benefit as well?

I would guess no. When DG got the extra wound, just their plague marines and terminators got it. Their various lords, sorcerers and elite characters did not receive the bonus wound.

 

Agreed. These are the units we can safely expect to get the +1W:

 

• Chaos Space Marines
• Chosen
• Terminators
• Havocs
• Cults (PMs, NMs, Rubricae, Berzerkers)
• Raptors
• Warp Talons
• Bikers
• Fallen

 

GW initially said Possessed were going to get +1W before the DG book was released, but that never eventuated (& they edited the quote out of the WHC article in which it appeared). Characters will remain the same, as they did in DG/TS/SM.

 

I'm honestly worried if mortals are included in the CSM dex per the rumours, leaving CSM regulated to a secondary detachment stacked with the top heavy HQ, elites and HS as the optimal list. I don't want a busted soup then nerfed so everything sucks just because its bad doing mono CSM upon release, in comparison to loyalists who have much stronger incentives to mono list. 

 

Mortals will inevitably be restricted like cultists/poxwalkers/tzaangors are in the DG & TS books. Whether our book can stand on its own two feet or not will come down to 1) how powerful our monofaction bonus is and 2) what happens with daemons. Chaos soup is a relic of 8th and may not be viable at all by the time both books are redone (and we don't know which of daemons & CSM will come first). Ideally we'll get a scenario like we have with DG now: the book is viable both when souping and when run mono.

 

In any case, based on how they've treated the busted Dark Eldar & Mechanicus releases - incremental tweaks rather than an 8th-ed Iron Handsesque gutting - I don't think we really need to worry about everything getting knocked into the ground shortly after release.

[Khornestar]

Hmm, interesting. 

 

I think possessed should have received an extra wound, but whatevsies. The 4 attacks base is pretty sweet. Thank the gods they abandoned the random attacks for them, and made spawn 2d3 instead of d6. "Random chaos haha" is cute and all, but it's nice to have the outcome of a combat be less "random chaos haha."

 

The toughness buff would make sense for any possessed, but the fact that they're called Death Guard Possessed doesn't bode well for that +1T, as mentioned in the OP.

 

Everything on the 2W list is just about everything that needs an extra wound. Most of our characters remain pretty easy to kill in all situations (vanilla CSM codex), and I don't think that will change. If the loyalist versions didn't get a wound bump, ours most likely won't. Kinda a lazy copy+paste philosophy that doesn't take into account the various ways loyalists can reduce damage or upgrade their defensive options, but let's not overturn the apple cart here. 

 

The one detail that could indicate a change in this philosophy is the extra wound heretic astartes get over loyalist firstborn in Kill Team. This in no way means it has implications for 40k 9th edition... but it might!

Edited August 23, 2021 by Juggernut

[Doctor Perils]

Does anyone expect to see any news about Dark Mechanicum?

[MegaVolt87]

Does anyone expect to see any news about Dark Mechanicum?

 

Nothing I have heard, though I would be putting on an extra large bowl of popcorn if Dark Mechanicum came for 40k and not 30k near the same time.   How do demon princes look in new TS and DG, they tougher/ more killy with the one cap? relics/ strats that juice them up? I will find it hard to give up my dual lords meta preference. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

How do demon princes look in new TS and DG, they tougher/ more killy with the one cap? relics/ strats that juice them up? I will find it hard to give up my dual lords meta preference.

 

Thanks for the reminder, that's another unit I'd forgotten to add to the OP.

 

TS and DG DPs are:

• 10 points cheaper stock, wings still an extra 35 point upgrade
• Hellforged Axes & Swords gain an extra +1S
• Malefic Talons lose a point of AP and now only give +1 attack per talon (although the second talon is now a free upgrade)
• DG DPs get DR (-1 to wound), 6 attacks, can take a plague spewer if it doesn't have wings, and gain only +2M from wings instead of +4
• TS DPs can cast twice instead of once, get 5 attacks, and a 4+ invul
• Both lose Hateful Assault (meaning that the TS DP effectively +1A in compensation, but the DG DP gets +2A)

In practice, both are very strong. The 4+ invul and second cast on the TS DP is brilliant, and the -1D and 6A on the DG is nothing to complain about. Both have access to some powerful relics and WL traits. The Hellforged Sword is now the best option for a Daemon Prince by a mile, so if anybody is building a DP between now and the release of our book, pick the sword.

 

I'm not sure if our DPs will be as good as theirs because we're presumably not going to get the -1D or 4+ invul/second cast, which go a long way to boosting their survivability and/or flexibility. If we actually get a mark system that offers comparable bonuses then our DPs should be just as formidable.

[WarriorFish]

... if anybody is building a DP between now and the release of our book, pick the sword.

Magnetising isn't too much work for the kit - I've long used the talons but looks like it's time to swap to the sword arm. I knew I painted it up for a reason

[Bulwyf]

I don't understand how WE would get a codex first over EC. Fulgrim has been back in the actual setting in Gathering Storm near the end of 7th edition. He was show in the setting again in 8th edition and also shown in current 40k timeline in the Fabius Bile books. He's literally been running around the galaxy since 7th edition putting the 3rd Legion back together.

 

Angron has been hinted at in 8th and 9th. Hinted. Fulgrim is literally already in the setting. It makes far more sense to have EC with new models, a codex and a Fulgrim 40k model first before WE.

 

As someone that plays an EC army I would be more than a little pissed if WE get a codex/Angron return/new models and EC gets literally nothing in 9th. I've heard from a source I trust in the first year of 8th edition that EC and WE would get their own codex with new models and Fulgrim and Angron models as well for 40k.

[Khornestar]

I don’t think the schedule of new releases has a whole lot to do with blurbs of fluff, for what it’s worth. Even major story stuff. I can see being frustrated about the order but either one could come first, or neither for years yet. Edited August 25, 2021 by Juggernut

[MegaVolt87]

GK have their new book, so WE first instead with Angorn at Armageddon with an accompanying campaign book with new GK units/ unit re-sculpts would be a smart match. Thats honestly how I would do it sorry to say. 

[Marshal Loss]

I'm totally fine with World Eaters coming before EC so long as we don't have to wait another 4-7 years. It's mainly the lack of a plastic noise marine kit that drives me nuts. I'm happy to wait for treats like EC-specific termies/daemon engines/characters etc but at least let me make noise marines without having to use a 20 year old finecast kit that GW isn't even prepared to photograph on the current models.

 

WE coming first isn't a huge surprise. EC have had more fluff hints but Khorne is arguably the most popular god in both fantasy and 40k, berzerkers are the most iconic 40k Chaos unit, a plastic Khârn came out 6 years ago, and there's the major Armageddon hints in the 9th ed rulebook. What is a surprise is that they did an entire AoS line for Slaanesh with no corresponding 40k release (that we've seen anyway), which is a major break from how they handled the TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin releases, which were designed together and released virtually simultaneously. I mean...they must know there's huge demand for EC: just look at the huge success that was the 2018 special edition Noise Marine (model of the year!) and the innumerable 3D printed/third party designs for sonic weapons.

 

It's not the end of the world. I'll inevitably buy and be enthusiastic about a World Eaters release, I just wish we had some noise marines on the horizon.

 

At least, per this topic (), there's probably a lot to look forward to for Chaos Space Marines in 2022.

[Bulwyf]

I'm totally fine with World Eaters coming before EC so long as we don't have to wait another 4-7 years. It's mainly the lack of a plastic noise marine kit that drives me nuts. I'm happy to wait for treats like EC-specific termies/daemon engines/characters etc but at least let me make noise marines without having to use a 20 year old finecast kit that GW isn't even prepared to photograph on the current models.

 

WE coming first isn't a huge surprise. EC have had more fluff hints but Khorne is arguably the most popular god in both fantasy and 40k, berzerkers are the most iconic 40k Chaos unit, a plastic Khârn came out 6 years ago, and there's the major Armageddon hints in the 9th ed rulebook. What is a surprise is that they did an entire AoS line for Slaanesh with no corresponding 40k release (that we've seen anyway), which is a major break from how they handled the TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin releases, which were designed together and released virtually simultaneously. I mean...they must know there's huge demand for EC: just look at the huge success that was the 2018 special edition Noise Marine (model of the year!) and the innumerable 3D printed/third party designs for sonic weapons.

 

It's not the end of the world. I'll inevitably buy and be enthusiastic about a World Eaters release, I just wish we had some noise marines on the horizon.

 

At least, per this topic (), there's probably a lot to look forward to for Chaos Space Marines in 2022.

 

That's what I'm talking about though. Fulgrim isn't hinted at coming back. He's literally ALREADY HERE in the current 40k timeline since Gathering Storm. Angron is the one that has only been hinted at. That's a gigantic difference. 

 

I know that both EC and WE will get their own codex but with how GW has treated Chaos it would completely be right up their alley to only release one for 9th and literally give the middle finger to the other so you are forced to wait until 10th edition for the last Chaos god dedicated legion to maaaaaybe get their codex.

 

Personally speaking WE and fantasy Khorne has no interest for me whatsoever. Slaanesh is at least interesting and something unique to 40k/fantasy. Not hard to find crazy war gods in other settings. I have no problems with WE fans getting their groove on with their codex but it is mind boggling that the one primarch whose been back for THREE EDITIONS now wouldn't come first as a new release along with EC to go with him. 

 

But no one accuses GW of having any common sense so...

[Excessus]

I'm hoping that we get both WE and EC. Sure, the EC camp wants theirs first and the WE camp wants theirs first...however, if one is released the other isn't far behind...since they'd have to do both before the CSM codex would drop. 

 

I'm looking forward to the lovely Red Butchers and Phoenix Terminators that will undoubtly come with those releases... :) 

 

 

 

Back to the CSM codex though, what about the spells. The TS and DG codexes have copies of the hereticus discipline here and there, right? Any differences there? 

[Marshal Loss]

Back to the CSM codex though, what about the spells. The TS and DG codexes have copies of the hereticus discipline here and there, right? Any differences there? 

The DG book doesn't get Dark Hereticus, but the Thousand Sons book has the "Lore of Vengeance", which is basically Dark Hereticus renamed and with some tweaks, which are as follows:

 

Infernal Gaze ("Gaze of Hate"), Witchfire: Unchanged

Death Hex ("Twist of Fate"), Malediction: Unchanged

Gift of Chaos ("Dark Blessing"), Witchfire: No longer sets up a spawn if you kill a character

Prescience ("Presage"), Blessing: Unchanged

Diabolic Strength ("Swelled by the Warp"), Blessing: Unchanged

Warptime ("Temporal Surge"), Blessing: Can now only target infantry, cavalry, and beasts, and is within 6" of the psyker (instead of within 3")

 

Basically no changes at all (EDIT: other than making the keywords TS specific, e.g. so you can't use TS warptime on a non-TS unit), beyond what I think is an appropriate tweak to warptime.

 

The Thousand Sons, however, also get 3 extra powers added to their version of Dark Hereticus:

 

Empyric Guidance (WC4): pick a unit within 6", until next psychic phase, add 6" to the range of rapid fire and heavy weapons

Psychic Stalk (WC5): ick a visible enemy within 18" of the psyker that isn't a character, monster, or vehicle and roll 2d6; if the roll exceeds the unmodified leadership of that unit, one model dies

Desecration of Worlds (WC7): pick one enemy within 24" of the psyker, until your next psychic phase, any time that unit moves or charges, roll a d6 for every model in that unit, on a 6 the unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

 

These three are all new and don't have equivalents in our codex. I don't think we're going to get these three, renamed or not, in the CSM book: they were probably added to compensate for the fact that Thousand Sons don't get the extra powers we do (one Slaanesh/one Tzeentch/one Nurgle), or maybe just so they have the Tzeentchy number of spells (9 in the discipline). Just speculation on my part.

 

I totally dig the name "Desecration of Worlds" though.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Paturabo]

What is a surprise is that they did an entire AoS line for Slaanesh with no corresponding 40k release (that we've seen anyway), which is a major break from how they handled the TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin releases, which were designed together and released virtually simultaneously.

 

 

Don't forget AOS 1st ed launched with Khorne mortals without a mirroring 40k release. They don't always drop both at once.

[Marshal Loss]

 

What is a surprise is that they did an entire AoS line for Slaanesh with no corresponding 40k release (that we've seen anyway), which is a major break from how they handled the TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin releases, which were designed together and released virtually simultaneously.

 

Don't forget AOS 1st ed launched with Khorne mortals without a mirroring 40k release. They don't always drop both at once.

 

 

Khârn was designed alongside those releases, and AoS Khorne was developed before they switched to the TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin model anyway. GW spoke about their change in approach at the time of the Arcanites release, re-using assets across ranges allows them to use their time more efficiently. We've had AoS Khorne in 2015, Khârn in 2016; TS in 2016, Arcanites in 2017; DG in 2017, Maggotkin in 2018; and now Hedonites of Slaanesh in 2019 and 2021. There's the 2018 one-off Noise Marine which may have been worked on at the same time, but if no actual EC release was designed (big if), it's still a demonstrable change in approach.

 

edit: hopefully added some clarity

Edited August 25, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Paturabo]

AoS Khorne was developed before they designed TS/Arcanites and DG/Maggotkin. GW spoke about their change in approach at the time of the Arcanites release.

I forgot they said that. If we are lucky then they have designs completed and we'll get a chaos dex every other month next year (Daemons, Knights, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Vanilla CSM). Provided there are no more major delays.

[firestorm40k]

If the rumours of the new mutant, Traitor Guard and Cultist units are true, I'll be happy (my wallet won't :D :lol:); I've been circling updating my Legion of Taurus using the new Chaos Marine minis since they were released - I've held back, partly as I've been waiting on a new Codex ;) but also because I wanted to go for a more 'Lost and the Damned' feel. A horde of mutants and Cultists forced on by the Traitor Marines. It probably won't be a particularly viable army in game, but at least I can (finally!) update the Legion of Taurus, and maybe not have to paint so many Chaos Marines as I do so (doing 4k points worth over 5th/6th edition kinda broke me :lol:).

[Doctor Perils]

Thinking about it now I’d actually prefer a wider Emperors Children release than a World Eaters one, new plastic berserkers notwithstanding. I just think there’s more to offer with guns, psychic powers, units, etc.

 

I mean really World Eaters tactics can be pretty well replicated by regular Khorne daemon armies, right? Obviously berserkers would be tougher than bloodletters and there’s the possibility for helbrutes and terminators, but even Angron would just be yet another flavor of bloodthirster at this point.

Considering the old khorne Daemon engines and stuff, there's definitely scope for a good amount of Dakka too, and I could quite enjoy a kind of blood sacrifice priest or chainsaw-wheeled bikers

[Excessus]

 

Thinking about it now I’d actually prefer a wider Emperors Children release than a World Eaters one, new plastic berserkers notwithstanding. I just think there’s more to offer with guns, psychic powers, units, etc.

 

I mean really World Eaters tactics can be pretty well replicated by regular Khorne daemon armies, right? Obviously berserkers would be tougher than bloodletters and there’s the possibility for helbrutes and terminators, but even Angron would just be yet another flavor of bloodthirster at this point.

Considering the old khorne Daemon engines and stuff, there's definitely scope for a good amount of Dakka too, and I could quite enjoy a kind of blood sacrifice priest or chainsaw-wheeled bikers

 

 

Heck, the FW Brass Scorpion is called the Greater Brass Scorpion...I think there is room for a lesser version of it... ;) 

 

Khorne has always been big on daemon engines in the lore, even back in Epic I think Khorne was the one with a truckload of vehicles and he's the only one with a proper CSM non-Primarch/FW LoW. Not to speak of the good old Khorne's Teeth dakka havocs, Lheorvine Ukris from ADBs novels is armed with a Hbolter (and don't call him "Firefist"). 

[Slave to Darkness]

Speaking as a Slaaneshii player, I dont mind World Waters coming first. Some of the most iconic artwork ever made for chaos over the years dating back to first edition was World Eaters, they are insanely popular and would be a no brainer cash injection for GW. Then they have longer to work on an Emperors Children dex, and you cant rush perfection after all. ;)

 

As for the mortals vs marines debate, it is weird how trends change over the years, I remember a WD article from just before the 2nd ed dex dropped (or it may be from the random ramblings of Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers in the dex, I dont have a copy here to check), and they mentioned everybody used pure marine armies at the recent tournys, so they cut all the weird stuff from the main list and put it in smaller lists at the back of the dex. Now meatsack heavy armies are popular again, whilst I like my Chaos Marine armys to have Marines in them I do like to run bullet sponges now and again. Id be happy with a 1 mortal per 1 marine restriction, It doesnt mean we cant get a full Lost and the Damned book further down the line with Guard Tanks, Spiky Ogryns and Artillery. 

[Irate Khornate]

Something to honestly expect would be the conversion of the start collecting box into the combat patrol. Same exact models but with higher price.

[Excessus]

Speaking as a Slaaneshii player, I dont mind World Waters coming first. Some of the most iconic artwork ever made for chaos over the years dating back to first edition was World Eaters, they are insanely popular and would be a no brainer cash injection for GW. Then they have longer to work on an Emperors Children dex, and you cant rush perfection after all.

 

As for the mortals vs marines debate, it is weird how trends change over the years, I remember a WD article from just before the 2nd ed dex dropped (or it may be from the random ramblings of Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers in the dex, I dont have a copy here to check), and they mentioned everybody used pure marine armies at the recent tournys, so they cut all the weird stuff from the main list and put it in smaller lists at the back of the dex. Now meatsack heavy armies are popular again, whilst I like my Chaos Marine armys to have Marines in them I do like to run bullet sponges now and again. Id be happy with a 1 mortal per 1 marine restriction, It doesnt mean we cant get a full Lost and the Damned book further down the line with Guard Tanks, Spiky Ogryns and Artillery. 

You remember correctly, the WD mentioned that the majority of armies people built were marine-centric so they focused on that in the (bestest ever) codex. 

 

The daemonworld armylist at the back of the book where you could take chaos knights (the horse-riding kind) and beastmen was very flavourful. :)

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

The daemonworld armylist at the back of the book where you could take chaos knights (the horse-riding kind) and beastmen was very flavourful.

 

I cant wait to finish my backlog of stuff for playing 1st ed games, then I can play about with the appendix lists as I never got round to that back in the day. Agreed on the 2nd ed dex being the best, Realms of Chaos not included (2 books covering 3 systems are a different beast to a codex book imho). 

 

++EDIT++

 

I realised I still have some fantasy chaos knights and other bits kicking about, I may bump up a small Daemon World army up my to do list actually. Will make a nice change from Guardsmen. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Slave to Darkness

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 We've had AoS Khorne in 2015, Khârn in 2016; TS in 2016, Arcanites in 2017; DG in 2017, Maggotkin in 2018; and now Hedonites of Slaanesh in 2019 and 2021.

 

Most of the Nurgle mortals are from Endtimes: Glotkin, only the rotly riding cavalry and a hero came out with the Nurgle Daemons in January 2018. Some of the AoS Khorne also came out with the last Endtime book and the plastic Bloodthirster. Khorne also got the plastic Flesh Hounds at the same time as the Slaanesh plastics.

[Marshal Loss]

Mortals and daemons have been worked on concurrently since at least the TS/Arcanites release, and e.g. Maggotkin only receiving a handful of mortal kits is irrelevant, as the ET kits were not designed alongside them (it's not a case of "wave 1" and "wave 2" of the same release like we've seen with numerous factions in recent years). Both the DG and Maggotkin releases were completed in c. 2.5 years from start to finish. There will inevitably be releases unconnected/only tangentially connected to major revamps, that's not news.

 

When I have time, I'll add sources, quotes & a section on this to the front post, as it is somewhat related to the main CSM book and some confusion seems to exist in certain quarters.