What to expect from 9e CSM

[Verbal Underbelly]

The accursed weapon thing doesn't sit right with me either, I could perhaps understand making all power weapons the same profile but there seems to be an indication that lightning claws are being rolled into that weapon type as well. Lightning claws have been a thing for space marines of all stripes forever.

 

Seems strange to tar a loads of different equipment types with the same rules brush. Especially when visually they're the same as their loyalist counterparts. 

 

It's like calling all havoc weapons "bad boy big guns" and giving them an identical profile. 

[Clockworkchris]

Let’s assume that the whole accursed weapons thing comes true. Why does the kit comes with 5 chainswords? Are the accused weapons a paid upgrade? If so, does the combi-gunner gets a chainsword, accursed weapon or none of the above? Why the kit contains more accursed weapons than necessary? Was the kit made with new rules in mind? Or is it a hang over from past. If so, why didn’t release it earlier? So many questions…

The reason is the ecosystem. Its financially a way to force you to buy otger kits to be able to complete other kits. Csm troops can take an autocannon and RCC but only the havocs kit has it. You want chainaxes, look the chosen kit comes with 2. Havocs comme with 2 lascannons guess youll have to pick up a second havoc kit.

 

Its an ecosystem that forces you to buy other kits. Except the warptalon and raptor kit. That kit is perfection.

[Dhar'Neth]

So I assume Warp talons have two accursed weapons?

[Toldavf]

 

Well night lords with a slanesh banner could be 2+ to hit 2+ to wound vs meq with 40+ attacks, that's not inconsiderable. 

where are you getting this from, also there is a hard cap on to hit and to wound rolls at 1

 

an icon on excess (assuming they can have one) and Nl doctrine on str 5 accursed weapons. If my math is wrong or I missed something I apologies. 

 

Really really hate those terminator options. Get the play tester to say its aweful :P

Edited February 1, 2022 by Toldavf

[MegaVolt87]

Just lol at accursed weapons. I would play fantasy/AoS warriors of chaos if I wanted things like that. Hopefully its just for possessed or a strat or something. Killing our MSU efficiency for chosen and potentially losing the extra heavy/special is pretty rough. We don't follow the codex astartes for that sort of thing. GW robbing us further of our OG legion organizations smh. 

[Clockworkchris]

So I assume Warp talons have two accursed weapons?

Litterally the only with accursed weapons are chosen and terminators.

[TheGodOfHammers]

Let’s assume that the whole accursed weapons thing comes true. Why does the kit comes with 5 chainswords? Are the accused weapons a paid upgrade? If so, does the combi-gunner gets a chainsword, accursed weapon or none of the above? Why the kit contains more accursed weapons than necessary? Was the kit made with new rules in mind? Or is it a hang over from past. If so, why didn’t release it earlier? So many questions…

 

From what I've heard (no way to confirm this), but a lot of people have been saying that this kit was made at the same time as the old refresh, so that's why it probably has all those options. To answer the question of why it wasn't released earlier, GW's release schedule is an enigma mate lol

[Cheex]

If "accursed weapons" only appear on the Chosen and Terminator datasheets, then I think this is purely a playtest thing. Most likely a case of: "here's an interesting idea, let's see if it works on these two units first before we rewrite every datasheet".

 

Personally, I'm not against the idea as long as it is applied consistently across the codex. Having distinctions between power swords, axes and mauls has always struck me as unnecessary bloat. It's a shame to lose the distinction with lightning claws, but it's always kind of sucked that they were just better power weapons.

 

It'll open up modelling and conversion options, too. Already equipped all your termies with lightning claw + combi bolter? Cool, still legal. Want to model your Chosen champion with a pair of wicked axes? Great, it has rules now.

 

The thing I don't like is limiting options like combi-weapons or "twin accursed weapons" to X-per-5. I get the concern that players who are unfamiliar with the kits want to buy a box and be able to build all the options straight out of that box, but as long as you list on the box what it contains then you should be fine. If I buy two Chosen kits (and surely GW wants that), then I should be able to give one squad 4x combi-plasmas and the other squad a bunch of "twin accursed weapons".

Edited February 1, 2022 by Cheex

[dice4thedicegod]

I like the accursed weapons - actually makes me more likely to pick up a set of these guys. Powersword with a bonus attack is pretty good (and doesn’tlose out too much compared to blade guard considering all the -1 damage that’s out there)

[Hathor42]

I wanna see special character rules especially Lucius.

[MegaVolt87]

I wanna see special character rules especially Lucius.

 

True, though my money is on Huron + Red Corsairs being the dark horse of the dex for some reason. 

[DesuVult]

While for modelling the accursed weapons thing is acceptable I don't agree they are mechanically fine because of how limited options are.  Without the ability to fill up on plasma or take heavy weapons chosen are pretty much dedicated melee now.  The proliferation of -1 damage is annoying but multi-wound infantry without it are still extremely common.  Chosen don't have storm shields, LCs, or jump packs.  They are foot slogging into units like terminators and bladeguard with a power sword profile and being hit with power fists and master crafted swords.  If a 10 man unit hit a unit of vanguard veterans that do not have shields the chosen need their doctrine up to clear 8 kills on average.  Vanguard veterans with hammers do that without doctrines and clear 10 with fists.  With these rumors so far chosen are still trying to punch up against peer units in a currently lagging codex.

 

Terminators without full fists are also looking at issues.  Sending chaos terminators into a unit like th/ss terminators would give an average result of the th/ss terminators killing more than they lost when they swing back. 

 

The rumor of being able to pick and choose additional rules will need to have some noteworthy options to put chosen over their peers mechanically.  Elite melee marines is a traditionally rough area to be competing in given the capability of staples like vanguard veterans and more and more armies are getting options to deal with this kind of unit.

[Sersi]

While for modelling the accursed weapons thing is acceptable I don't agree they are mechanically fine because of how limited options are.  Without the ability to fill up on plasma or take heavy weapons chosen are pretty much dedicated melee now.  The proliferation of -1 damage is annoying but multi-wound infantry without it are still extremely common.  Chosen don't have storm shields, LCs, or jump packs.  They are foot slogging into units like terminators and bladeguard with a power sword profile and being hit with power fists and master crafted swords.  If a 10 man unit hit a unit of vanguard veterans that do not have shields the chosen need their doctrine up to clear 8 kills on average.  Vanguard veterans with hammers do that without doctrines and clear 10 with fists.  With these rumors so far chosen are still trying to punch up against peer units in a currently lagging codex.

 

Terminators without full fists are also looking at issues.  Sending chaos terminators into a unit like th/ss terminators would give an average result of the th/ss terminators killing more than they lost when they swing back. 

 

The rumor of being able to pick and choose additional rules will need to have some noteworthy options to put chosen over their peers mechanically.  Elite melee marines is a traditionally rough area to be competing in given the capability of staples like vanguard veterans and more and more armies are getting options to deal with this kind of unit.

 

While technically true would you really send Chosen to fight Vanguard, Terminator to fight Terminators?  Chop the shooty and shoot the choppy, right.  

[Irate Khornate]

To be perfectly honest, if that's the route terminators are going, then I'll just use obliterators. Problem solved.

[DesuVult]

 

 

While for modelling the accursed weapons thing is acceptable I don't agree they are mechanically fine because of how limited options are. Without the ability to fill up on plasma or take heavy weapons chosen are pretty much dedicated melee now. The proliferation of -1 damage is annoying but multi-wound infantry without it are still extremely common. Chosen don't have storm shields, LCs, or jump packs. They are foot slogging into units like terminators and bladeguard with a power sword profile and being hit with power fists and master crafted swords. If a 10 man unit hit a unit of vanguard veterans that do not have shields the chosen need their doctrine up to clear 8 kills on average. Vanguard veterans with hammers do that without doctrines and clear 10 with fists. With these rumors so far chosen are still trying to punch up against peer units in a currently lagging codex.

 

Terminators without full fists are also looking at issues. Sending chaos terminators into a unit like th/ss terminators would give an average result of the th/ss terminators killing more than they lost when they swing back.

 

The rumor of being able to pick and choose additional rules will need to have some noteworthy options to put chosen over their peers mechanically. Elite melee marines is a traditionally rough area to be competing in given the capability of staples like vanguard veterans and more and more armies are getting options to deal with this kind of unit.

While technically true would you really send Chosen to fight Vanguard, Terminator to fight Terminators? Chop the shooty and shoot the choppy, right.

Yes, I would absolutely send chosen to fight veterans and terminators to fight terminators. Why would I not?

[Khornestar]

Terminators have a chance of surviving attacks from other terminators. Chosen get splattered by things with an invuln save unless they manage to wipe the target on the charge, which, if that target is terminators, with this rumored weapon profile is pretty unlikely to happen unless things are skewed.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Khornestar

[Prot]

This is why I prefer my Chosen to be shooty. Possessed (should) be up to the task of melee meat grinder. 
 

That said being a Black legion dude, it makes Termies more attractive being able to handle close range engagement a little better than chosen. 
 

I really hope Abaadon still has the adjusted DTTFE rule, which would make sense since it changed to suit their new ability. 
 

Oblits are a bit weird to me. I still think the random shots of D3 is going to be super swingy…. But while our Havocs have no access to Meltas I feel I may be stuck with them. It was different with VotLW but we all assume that is gone. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

To be perfectly honest, if that's the route terminators are going, then I'll just use obliterators. Problem solved.

I agree in principle but there's a slot question. A Battalion Detachment has six Elites slots but only three Heavies. That has to weigh in your composition.

[dice4thedicegod]

I would assume that Chosen would be cheaper than blade guard/terminators (at least, assuming not plasma or melta) and would therefore not be expected to go toe to toe with them.

 

Assuming the points are aggressive enough, there’s still going to be room for them.

[Toldavf]

I'm wondering where our fire support infantry will be now, I mean sure we will have obliterators/havocs (generaly only 3 heavy slots) but them aside we have no heavy ranged damage or unit that can take alot of plasma or melta. It's a thing that lots of other armies just have, I'd really rather not see the army become to melee focused purely because that is all that's effective. 

With the addition of newer tougher monsters (nids are next and I would be surprised to see half damage reduction on the swarm lord) we need a bit more firepower on our elites than a couple meta guns. 

At the end of the day delivering chosen seems like a tall order they are going to be move 6 with no resilience to speak of. In a world of fusion guns, cyclic ion blasters, hammernators,  weapons from the dark age plasma, ect, ect 3 wounds doesn't mean as much as it used to. 

Unless there is a super reliable way to make them charge out of a pod i would be wary of them. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Toldavf

[Special Officer Doofy]

It was different with VotLW but we all assume that is gone.

I don't think it will be gone. DG and TS still have it, just now the cost is double and cultist type infantry can't use it. I'm not a gambling man but I would put money down that they still have it.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

I'm wondering where our fire support infantry will be now, I mean sure we will have obliterators/havocs (generaly only 3 heavy slots) but them aside we have no heavy ranged damage or unit that can take alot of plasma or melta. It's a thing that lots of other armies just have, I'd really rather not see the army become to melee focused purely because that is all that's effective. 

 

With the addition of newer tougher monsters (nids are next and I would be surprised to see half damage reduction on the swarm lord) we need a bit more firepower on our elites than a couple meta guns. 

 

At the end of the day delivering chosen seems like a tall order they are going to be move 6 with no resilience to speak of. In a world of fusion guns, cyclic ion blasters, hammernators,  weapons from the dark age plasma, ect, ect 3 wounds doesn't mean as much as it used to. 

 

Unless there is a super reliable way to make them charge out of a pod i would be wary of them. 

To be honest I am wondering the same thing. I keep reading that this is all to do with balance, but where is the balance being created here? If you ask me, all it is doing is putting Chaos in a really wierd limbo world where they are disadvantaged at every turn.

[Clockworkchris]

 

I'm wondering where our fire support infantry will be now, I mean sure we will have obliterators/havocs (generaly only 3 heavy slots) but them aside we have no heavy ranged damage or unit that can take alot of plasma or melta. It's a thing that lots of other armies just have, I'd really rather not see the army become to melee focused purely because that is all that's effective. 

 

With the addition of newer tougher monsters (nids are next and I would be surprised to see half damage reduction on the swarm lord) we need a bit more firepower on our elites than a couple meta guns. 

 

At the end of the day delivering chosen seems like a tall order they are going to be move 6 with no resilience to speak of. In a world of fusion guns, cyclic ion blasters, hammernators,  weapons from the dark age plasma, ect, ect 3 wounds doesn't mean as much as it used to. 

 

Unless there is a super reliable way to make them charge out of a pod i would be wary of them. 

To be honest I am wondering the same thing. I keep reading that this is all to do with balance, but where is the balance being created here? If you ask me, all it is doing is putting Chaos in a really wierd limbo world where they are disadvantaged at every turn.

 

Every faction upon release has brought something to the meta. Space marines was the power armored semi elite gameplay. Drukhari and admech brought anti elite gameplay and so on. I feel like CSM will be the faction to bring back vehicules, with the way the army is shaping up and looking at the legion traits/doctrines/superdoctrines, daemons engine are looking spicy as hell. This is what our shooting is going to be coming from.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

 

 

I'm wondering where our fire support infantry will be now, I mean sure we will have obliterators/havocs (generaly only 3 heavy slots) but them aside we have no heavy ranged damage or unit that can take alot of plasma or melta. It's a thing that lots of other armies just have, I'd really rather not see the army become to melee focused purely because that is all that's effective. 

 

With the addition of newer tougher monsters (nids are next and I would be surprised to see half damage reduction on the swarm lord) we need a bit more firepower on our elites than a couple meta guns. 

 

At the end of the day delivering chosen seems like a tall order they are going to be move 6 with no resilience to speak of. In a world of fusion guns, cyclic ion blasters, hammernators,  weapons from the dark age plasma, ect, ect 3 wounds doesn't mean as much as it used to. 

 

Unless there is a super reliable way to make them charge out of a pod i would be wary of them. 

To be honest I am wondering the same thing. I keep reading that this is all to do with balance, but where is the balance being created here? If you ask me, all it is doing is putting Chaos in a really wierd limbo world where they are disadvantaged at every turn.

 

Every faction upon release has brought something to the meta. Space marines was the power armored semi elite gameplay. Drukhari and admech brought anti elite gameplay and so on. I feel like CSM will be the faction to bring back vehicules, with the way the army is shaping up and looking at the legion traits/doctrines/superdoctrines, daemons engine are looking spicy as hell. This is what our shooting is going to be coming from.

 

You know what, You're probably not wrong. the team to bring back vehicles, in front of D12 tau weapons, all the ignore invuls around and the weapons that burn through ceramite like rice paper. Yeah and no sarcasm here at all, I can totally see GW doing this to Chaos. Chaos, the faction the GW not only forgot, but marginalised first.

[Clockworkchris]

 

 

 

I'm wondering where our fire support infantry will be now, I mean sure we will have obliterators/havocs (generaly only 3 heavy slots) but them aside we have no heavy ranged damage or unit that can take alot of plasma or melta. It's a thing that lots of other armies just have, I'd really rather not see the army become to melee focused purely because that is all that's effective. 

 

With the addition of newer tougher monsters (nids are next and I would be surprised to see half damage reduction on the swarm lord) we need a bit more firepower on our elites than a couple meta guns. 

 

At the end of the day delivering chosen seems like a tall order they are going to be move 6 with no resilience to speak of. In a world of fusion guns, cyclic ion blasters, hammernators,  weapons from the dark age plasma, ect, ect 3 wounds doesn't mean as much as it used to. 

 

Unless there is a super reliable way to make them charge out of a pod i would be wary of them. 

To be honest I am wondering the same thing. I keep reading that this is all to do with balance, but where is the balance being created here? If you ask me, all it is doing is putting Chaos in a really wierd limbo world where they are disadvantaged at every turn.

 

Every faction upon release has brought something to the meta. Space marines was the power armored semi elite gameplay. Drukhari and admech brought anti elite gameplay and so on. I feel like CSM will be the faction to bring back vehicules, with the way the army is shaping up and looking at the legion traits/doctrines/superdoctrines, daemons engine are looking spicy as hell. This is what our shooting is going to be coming from.

 

You know what, You're probably not wrong. the team to bring back vehicles, in front of D12 tau weapons, all the ignore invuls around and the weapons that burn through ceramite like rice paper. Yeah and no sarcasm here at all, I can totally see GW doing this to Chaos. Chaos, the faction the GW not only forgot, but marginalised first.

 

wouldnt want CSM to be to powerful upon release, now would we. when they released admech and drukhari, their natural counter wasnt out yet. This time around they made sure the natural counter was out first. Good thing hammerheads are not lining up to be meta.