What to expect from 9e CSM

[Khornestar]

Well, there was a discussion about Forgefiend shooting, which isn't the worst shooting unit but certainly doesn't seem in the same league as anything previewed in the Tau or Eldar arsenal. The defiler is ok but do a battle cannon and lascannon sound any more destructive? If we add the reaper autocannon and heavy flamer? Heldrakes happen to have a gun. Venomcrawlers, maybe?

 

So havocs, leviathan, contemptors, and obliterators will probably make up the bulk of my shooting, based on my collection. I'm thinking in terms of my lists and not anything beyond that, for what it's worth.

 

A renegade warband trait that makes core and thus chosen objective secured could spice things up.

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

I got some confirmations

 

No strat for accursed weapons

 

The terminator info below has been corrected following confirmation

 

terminator loadouts:

Base loadout, combibolters + accursed weapons

 

For every 5

1 can replace combibolter with autocanon or heavy flamer

 

1 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon

 

3 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist

 

1 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist

 

2 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers

 

2 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi flamers

 

1 can replace combibolters with combi plasma

Just out of curiosity, where are these confirmations coming from?

[Verbal Underbelly]

I think for games amongst my friend group I'm simply going to ignore artificial restrictions and maybe even rules I regard as wonky. It's different for pick-up games perhaps, and certainly very different for tourney players.

 

Ultimately, once I've bought my toy soldiers they belong to me and I'll use them as I see fit. I'd always rather have official rules support but 40k can be used as a sandbox to simply have fun in.

[Agrest_IW]

If Chaos have ability to split squad for two , you canb take 4 combimeltas in 10 squad and split 2x5 and DS 5 terminators with 4 combimeltas (try kill some dred or something hard  , and second 5 with combibolters DS on something else (some infantry) but OFC dont think GW give CSM ability to split squads , 

[Vanger]

Tonight i will math out the accursed weapons vs the other weapons (including relic blades). Ill post the results.

Um... maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread, but what is the profile of "Accursed weapons"?

 

And then based on your source, Chosen are M 6" WS 3+ BS 3+ S4 T4 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv 3+? Do they still have a champion? A4 Ld9?

 

Edit:

 

If you could ask your source, what is the basic loadout of the standard CSM? (I'm hoping for bolter+bp+astartes chainsword)

Edited February 2, 2022 by Vanger

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

Tonight i will math out the accursed weapons vs the other weapons (including relic blades). Ill post the results.

Um... maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread, but what is the profile of "Accursed weapons"?

 

And then based on your source, Chosen are M 6" WS 3+ BS 3+ S4 T4 W3 A3 Ld8 Sv 3+? Do they still have a champion? A4 Ld9?

 

Edit:

 

If you could ask your source, what is the basic loadout of the standard CSM? (I'm hoping for bolter+bp+astartes chainsword)

 

 

Leak about chosen.

 

In the new book, their base loadout is boltgun & accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)

 

I believe this is the comment you're after

[Closet Skeleton]

Why on earth are they removing the fun, and strategic element of these squads? Terminators (and chosen) used to be the squads that harkened back to the pre-heresy with cool, unique weapon loadouts. And is this an error, but I don't see Combi Melta, which is quite huge to me. (I mean they are in the boxset!)

 

So if it's not a fist/chainfist, it's an Accursed Weapon. Claws are gone. This is not only disappointing, but I better see Vanguard vets lose them too.

 

 

There's a conflict between list building and modeling. The ability to make min-maxed no brainer superior units that are aesthetically cookie cutter and boring isn't 'creative' to me.

 

Chaos terminators have been 'units of unique load out individuals' since 2nd ed and vastly predates the idea of cookie cutter Horus Heresy squads, all 'in the box' limitations do is force you to apply to the theme that everyone ignored over non-fliuffy list building optimisation.

 

There's nothing thematic for chaos about the ability to form units of specialised cookie cutter dudes. Chaos elites are bands of weirdos who lived as long as they did by having enough other wierdos around them to catch bullets for them and only fight in groups for that reason. Chaos Lords are charismatic leaders who maintain control only as long as they can hand out the loot and maintain awe and respect for their power, not careful team managers who go around optimising everything.

 

Pre-heresy marines were all about long term strategic planning, supply chains and organised resource bases. Chaos marines are all about looting what you can get your hands on and then trafding for whatever daemon engines the Dark Mechanicum happen to have on sale while you're in the area. Their equipment options shouldn't overlap at all.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[Clockworkchris]

The other info we are missing is bikers, maybe they will be more shooty this edition?

[Abaddon303]

I kind of never expected chosen to be great. The most obvious comparison to loyalists is sternguard. No point dumping expensive shooting on squishy marine bodies.

[Khornestar]

 

 

 

Why on earth are they removing the fun, and strategic element of these squads? Terminators (and chosen) used to be the squads that harkened back to the pre-heresy with cool, unique weapon loadouts. And is this an error, but I don't see Combi Melta, which is quite huge to me. (I mean they are in the boxset!)

 

So if it's not a fist/chainfist, it's an Accursed Weapon. Claws are gone. This is not only disappointing, but I better see Vanguard vets lose them too.

 

There's a conflict between list building and modeling. The ability to make min-maxed no brainer superior units that are aesthetically cookie cutter and boring isn't 'creative' to me.

 

Chaos terminators have been 'units of unique load out individuals' since 2nd ed and vastly predates the idea of cookie cutter Horus Heresy squads, all 'in the box' limitations do is force you to apply to the theme that everyone ignored over non-fliuffy list building optimisation.

 

There's nothing thematic for chaos about the ability to form units of specialised cookie cutter dudes. Chaos elites are bands of weirdos who lived as long as they did by having enough other wierdos around them to catch bullets for them and only fight in groups for that reason. Chaos Lords are charismatic leaders who maintain control only as long as they can hand out the loot and maintain awe and respect for their power, not careful team managers who go around optimising everything.

 

Pre-heresy marines were all about long term strategic planning, supply chains and organised resource bases. Chaos marines are all about looting what you can get your hands on and then trafding for whatever daemon engines the Dark Mechanicum happen to have on sale while you're in the area. Their equipment options shouldn't overlap at all.

I don’t agree with your assessment, nor do I particularly think the fluff is well represented in rules most of the time, nor do I think an army book’s comparative balance should be beholden to such things. In a system where these two units in particular are highly customizable everyone has the ability to equip and play their units how they like.

 

I agree with you that having a random mishmash of equipment is more fitting to their background narrative. I build my units this way too, but actually equipping them with that wargear in a list intentionally neuters them, and makes the unit ineffectual at whatever it tries to do. I don’t need to pick stuff that’s broken, but I certainly want to build the most potent/dangerous army list I can.

 

I don’t even particularly object to change. I just want more thought out into the rules for our units. Of course I admit we haven’t seen any actual info, nor is the sky falling, but unless Clockworkchris is trolling us these rumors seem par the course for chaos books. I don’t think GW “hates chaos” so much as doesn’t know what to do with them, and outside of a few standouts mediocrity has been the name of the game in every edition I’ve played seriously (6th-9th).

 

My gripe has always been that design philosophy is not some equally implemented thing across an edition among all codices. It’s already evident in 9th. I’m still in the mindset of wait and see, but since we’re discussing these leaks, that’s kinda what we have to go on. Chosen have been mediocre and not impressive that entire time, but terminators were one of our standouts. Reliable and dangerous, in shooting and melee. It would be disappointing to see them too fade into mediocrity.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Khornestar

[ChazSexington]

 

So the Chosen changes are apparently non-existent. Still the same rules, so we're probably worrying about nothing. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Think that was already brought up that those may be for the 8E book and not the unpublished 9E book, so no guarantees on that.

[Prot]

I won't fully quote the above, when someone says Chaos works like "this", it's an oxymoron to me. Your vision of Chaos works the way you see fit.

 

You can't bring up a pre-heresy example to support it. You can't bring up a 'noob' Chaos chapter (IE: Crimson Slaughter) to support it. Why? Because it's all relevant. This isn't Macragge, where you get your new blue helmet and the same training as the guy behind you.

 

This is an army of noobs, specialization, modern warfare, daemon worshipping, well equipped (stolen?), predated weapons, army that doesn't fit any one way of killing loyalists. It's all of the above.

 

The point I was trying to make is something like Vanguard vets existing, allowing some pretty old (not to mention potent) options, while stripping something like Chaos Chosen/Termies of some of those (even more limited) options is just not cool with me. It doesn't fit the background, and certainly nobody like losing options, right?

 

This doesn't mean I believe you should be able to put together some rag tag termies with "accursed weapons" but also retain the flexibility they have now.

 

I don't know how long most of you have played Chaos, but we've lost a LOT over the last decade plus. The infinite customization might not suit today's 'primaris culture' but it is all but gone... not diminished, or diluted... it's gone.

 

Moving from facts, to my personal opinion.... we don't really have a studio 'champion' of our cause. We haven't since... Pete Haines. I'm not asking for those days back, but we've slid pretty darn far since then. This is what we lack. I don't think anyone in the studio really has a clue what to do with the army. I don't think it sells really well, I don't think it has been particularly well written about (until recently) and is a hot potato in the studio. 

 

Some of us have been around Chaos 40K since those Pete Haines days, and I feel comfortable saying most of us miss the customization and options... not being broken. 

[TheGodOfHammers]

 

So the Chosen changes are apparently non-existent. Still the same rules, so we're probably worrying about nothing. 

 

The rules in the Eldritch Omens booklet, for Chaos, are from their 8th Edition codex still, they're not the 9th Edition rules. You can tell because the Warpsmith has an option for the hammer on the sprue, but not in the rules. The Forgefiend is also unchanged, even though we know that it will have a few changes thanks to the Thousand Sons codex.

 

Why the booklet doesn't have the new rules but has the new models is beyond me though.

[DesuVult]

10,000 years ago traitor astartes sacrificed everything, their very souls even, to wage war against the a man who proclaimed himself Emperor of Mankind. Some of those warriors still fight today. Warriors who fought beside and against primarchs, some even present when a primarch fell. They fought as legions with weapons so grand and dangerous they are lost to the Imperium of today. Chosen and imbued with dark powers by capricious gods they still wage war on the Imperium. Throwing their all into the war. Vast dark foundries have been constructed and pacts forged to create malign weapons impossible within normal space.

 

What was all of that for?

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

Look team, I just want my squads the way I have them so they can do their jobs well. A squad of x5 combi-melta and x5 chainfist, and a squad of x5 dual lightening claws. My lawnmower squad and my anti tank squad, they're still easily beatable. Just give me this one thing that actually works and don't take it away. For the love of all the ruinous powers, please!

Edited February 24, 2022 by Grand_Master_Alpharius

[Danielatar]

10,000 years ago traitor astartes sacrificed everything, their very souls even, to wage war against the a man who proclaimed himself Emperor of Mankind. Some of those warriors still fight today. Warriors who fought beside and against primarchs, some even present when a primarch fell. They fought as legions with weapons so grand and dangerous they are lost to the Imperium of today. Chosen and imbued with dark powers by capricious gods they still wage war on the Imperium. Throwing their all into the war. Vast dark foundries have been constructed and pacts forged to create malign weapons impossible within normal space.

 

What was all of that for?

It was to have good old S4 AP0 bolters and og 1 wound marines. Blessed be the Pantheon.

[Irate Khornate]

 

To be perfectly honest, if that's the route terminators are going, then I'll just use obliterators. Problem solved.

I agree in principle but there's a slot question. A Battalion Detachment has six Elites slots but only three Heavies. That has to weigh in your composition.

I've been building Word Bearers for a while now for Horus Heresy, my elites are looking to be possessed. Plus Obliterators are daemons and I have the feeling the MoP spell designed for them might be tweaked a little.

[Clockworkchris]

 

 

To be perfectly honest, if that's the route terminators are going, then I'll just use obliterators. Problem solved.

I agree in principle but there's a slot question. A Battalion Detachment has six Elites slots but only three Heavies. That has to weigh in your composition.

I've been building Word Bearers for a while now for Horus Heresy, my elites are looking to be possessed. Plus Obliterators are daemons and I have the feeling the MoP spell designed for them might be tweaked a little.

I could fully expect it to just become they get max shots if the spell works.

[Lagrath]

The melee weapon changes are not ideal but it's better than me having to break and swap the weapon arm on all 10 terminators for the 3rd time in 15 months. The new weapon is not as good as lightning claws but not that much worse.

 

What concerns me more is losing the ability to put combi-plasma on every model. It's so annoying when I magnetized it for all the models. The biggest problem though is that this totally changes terminators. It used to be that terminators were good because they filled a dual role of being a melee threat and a shooting threat (especially with deep strike and then rapid fire at 12"). You could double-shoot the plasma and also use it on top of stripping an invul with death hex. 

 

Not they are basically reduced to bolter and maybe a few dudes with plasma at which point you might as well be all combi-bolters which are worthless for anything but clearing hordes. It's a major blow to the unit. This will be on top of VOTLW probably going from 1 to 2 CP (despite Custodes getting an avalanche of great 1 CP strats in their new book) and maybe losing shoot twice. 

 

I hope that the points cost at 3 wounds and the daemon upgrades and the new Legion stuff are all good enough to make up for what terminators are losing. CSM in general need to be way improved, and so I hope terminators have an upgrade overall rather than a sidegrade or even a downgrade from where they are at. 

 

Edit: though if the rumors so far are true and we are understanding them correctly, I do like the idea of Iron Warriors Nurgle Terminators with an Icon of Despair. Stick them in cover, have light cover +1 to armor saves with reduce ap 1/2 by 1 so you 2+ save into most ap2 shots, -1 to wound them, 40 bolter shots at 24" with 6s to hit autowound, ignoring enemy cover. With -1 to wound, str 5-7 only wounds them on 4s which is the same as transhuman. If their rule is truly ignore all cover (rather than just ignore light cover), they can wash away the -1 to hit dense as well. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lagrath

[Iron Inspirit]

Iron Warrior Wishlist:
Dour Duty is completely unchanged and stacks with our new -1 ap for -1/-2ap so we can reduce -3 ap to -1ap. 
Methodical Annihilation adds +1 to the damage of all heavy weapons (That 4 damage forgefiend, this would also fix Obliterators for IW)
Cannon Fodder works with the new T4 cultists.

Access to double warlord traits and double relics on characters.

Ways to increase the toughness of vehicles.

Thats about it.

[Lexington]

Chaos terminators have been 'units of unique load out individuals' since 2nd ed

 

This is a...dubious claim, at best, which really only has support from product photography rather than any actual background. As others have said, it's Chaos. There's a big, big range of how well-equipped they are.

 

Heck, if you want a unit that's absolutely got backing for more individualized loadouts, look no further than Ork Nobz, who can all be armed with just about any way you like, including the exact same equipment across an entire squad. Chaos Terminators deserve the same treatment.

 

Why the booklet doesn't have the new rules but has the new models is beyond me though.

Between the bizarre timing of the Tyranid Codex release and other little hints, I'm fairly convinced that Chaos has been hit by some hefty supply/distribution problems, and it'll be a minute before the Codex and attached release wave actually hits shelves. This booklet likely ended up getting a last-minute reprint with old rules to reflect that.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lexington

[spessmarine]

It's why I don't like the complaints about having to convert weapon options. Most factions will not have a host of releases to represent every possible loadout imaginable.

For a bunch, they've got kits that are old and when designed the loadouts were a scattershot of choices. Which is fine, but when trying to retrofit rules onto whatever designers were thinking 5+ years ago it gets messy. I hate looking at some of the paragraph-sized wargear options with all sorts of caveats.

Broadsides for Tau in example got tweaked a bit apparently due to how some bits are shared on the sprue which is annoying.

[TrawlingCleaner]

10,000 years ago traitor astartes sacrificed everything, their very souls even, to wage war against the a man who proclaimed himself Emperor of Mankind. Some of those warriors still fight today. Warriors who fought beside and against primarchs, some even present when a primarch fell. They fought as legions with weapons so grand and dangerous they are lost to the Imperium of today. Chosen and imbued with dark powers by capricious gods they still wage war on the Imperium. Throwing their all into the war. Vast dark foundries have been constructed and pacts forged to create malign weapons impossible within normal space.

 

What was all of that for?

Patience brother! Our time will come, we're all champing at the bit for the book together.

It's called the Long War for a reason

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

This is a...dubious claim, at best, which really only has support from product photography rather than any actual background. 

 

 

and the lucky dip blister packs, it was so hard getting a whole unit equipped with the weapons you wanted unless you used mail order.