What to expect from 9e CSM

[Excessus]

 

 

 

This is a...dubious claim, at best, which really only has support from product photography rather than any actual background. 

 

 

and the lucky dip blister packs, it was so hard getting a whole unit equipped with the weapons you wanted unless you used mail order. 

 

that's why you converted them :)

[Verbal Underbelly]

I for one love conversion work. It's an aspect of the hobby that doesn't have the support it once had as far as GW seems to be concerned. I think the apparent removal of options removes a touch of nuance and creativity from a project. Perhaps it's a decision intended to make the hobby more accessible which is okay, but is shouldn't have to be at the expense of the afore mentioned hobby aspects.

 

I am excited for the codex, and hopeful. Let the design decisions fall where they may. I'm sure there'll be some great elements in there, such as the doctrines. Finally getting some parity with loyalist marines is a must.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I played in 3rd and 4th ed., when there was no differentiation between power weapons (other than lightning claws, thunder hammers, fists and chainfists) and didn't mind much.  Indeed, it was the proliferation of a million special rules that basically made me quit from the hobby for the 6 and 7th edition.

 

So, I wouldn't cry over the removal of the power sword, axe and maul and simply have them all become power (or accursed) weapons again.  Be kind of strange to only do it for one unit though (and to include chainswords in the mix for that unit seems doubly odd) - seems more like something that would be part of an edition reboot than a partway through codex.

 

That said, I'm not going to get all up arms about any of these potential changes at this point - not only go we not know if they are correct, but we also don't know the rules surrounding  them... if the rules are otherwise awesome, I (for one) would likely be willing to overlook many minor faults. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[techsoldaten]

I won't fully quote the above, when someone says Chaos works like "this", it's an oxymoron to me. Your vision of Chaos works the way you see fit.

 

Variety used to be one of Chaos' strengths. As late as 5th edition, you could do a Berzerker Rhino Rush, there were viable Biker / DP builds, you could still get some work done with Raptors. I played a Spawn Rush army late in 6th and it was very, very tough to beat.

 

While that's not entirely gone, the emphasis seems to be for skew lists. In 8th, I ran lascannon gunline, Bloodletter Bomb and Daemon Primarch lists. Pure range, pure melee, and pure elites seemed to be the answer to the what the meta was serving me.

 

Your point that there's no one way for Chaos to work makes sense. But more and more I see Chaos being defined by what's in other Codexes. There's times I think the Codex needs to be renamed "Obliterators and Chaos Fodder," because that's what most lists use to beat other armies.

 

 

What concerns me more is losing the ability to put combi-plasma on every model. It's so annoying when I magnetized it for all the models. The biggest problem though is that this totally changes terminators. It used to be that terminators were good because they filled a dual role of being a melee threat and a shooting threat (especially with deep strike and then rapid fire at 12"). You could double-shoot the plasma and also use it on top of stripping an invul with death hex. 

 

Not they are basically reduced to bolter and maybe a few dudes with plasma at which point you might as well be all combi-bolters which are worthless for anything but clearing hordes. It's a major blow to the unit. This will be on top of VOTLW probably going from 1 to 2 CP (despite Custodes getting an avalanche of great 1 CP strats in their new book) and maybe losing shoot twice. 

 

 

Terminator flexible loadouts is part of what made them a stand out in previous editions. My concern is they will just be generalists with no specific role in an army. 

 

Deep strike, the wounds and toughness make them useful even without pure combi-plasma. But else are they supposed to be able to do?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I don’t agree with your assessment, nor do I particularly think the fluff is well represented in rules most of the time, nor do I think an army book’s comparative balance should be beholden to such things. In a system where these two units in particular are highly customizable everyone has the ability to equip and play their units how they like.

 

 

There's a rule system, a model range and a set of target audiences.

 

Everyone who complained about the Chaos Terminator kit not allowing load out optimisation was making a claim that they were the legitimate primary target audience for a Chaos Terminator kit and that the designers had failed by not making a kit tailored to list optimisation.

 

I'm defending the kit as targeting the currect target audience and in doing so I'm making a claim that caring about theme over list building optimisation makes you the real chaos core target audience. I'm not claiming that other players are wrong or have no legitimacy, I'm only arguing about priority.

 

I don't like 9th ed's silly datasheet loadouts and I didn't like 8th ed's either. This change just doesn't hurt me.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Closet Skeleton

[DesuVult]

 

 

I don’t agree with your assessment, nor do I particularly think the fluff is well represented in rules most of the time, nor do I think an army book’s comparative balance should be beholden to such things. In a system where these two units in particular are highly customizable everyone has the ability to equip and play their units how they like.

 

 

There's a rule system, a model range and a set of target audiences.

 

Everyone who complained about the Chaos Terminator kit not allowing load out optimisation was making a claim that they were the legitimate primary target audience for a Chaos Terminator kit and that the designers had failed by not making a kit tailored to list optimisation.

 

I'm defending the kit as targeting the currect target audience and in doing so I'm making a claim that caring about theme over list building optimisation makes you the real chaos core target audience. I'm not claiming that other players are wrong or have no legitimacy, I'm only arguing about priority.

 

 

It is not optimization I am aiming for, I want to be able to give my chaos terminators 5 power fists.  My IW siege tyrants have power fists, my IW cataphractii have power fists, my IW dominators have chainfists, my IF tartaros have thunder hammers.  I have a theme I like, standardized hard hitting weapons on my terminators.  That has previously been a possibility, now that option appears to be going away.  Chaos terminators are 2 sprues for $60 USD.  Primaris Sword Brethren are 3 sprues for $55 USD.  I find it hard not to see this as being short changed on modelling and rules following that modelling shortening.

[Closet Skeleton]

It is not optimization I am aiming for, I want to be able to give my chaos terminators 5 power fists.  My IW siege tyrants have power fists, my IW cataphractii have power fists, my IW dominators have chainfists, my IF tartaros have thunder hammers.  I have a theme I like, standardized hard hitting weapons on my terminators.  That has previously been a possibility, now that option appears to be going away.  Chaos terminators are 2 sprues for $60 USD.  Primaris Sword Brethren are 3 sprues for $55 USD.  I find it hard not to see this as being short changed on modelling and rules following that modelling shortening.

 

Primaris SB also have annoying arbitary load rules.

 

Primaris Bladeguard are three sprues too and only have a pistol option on the sergeant.

 

The new Chaos Terminator rules don't even make sense on their own logic because if a lightning claw is just a weapon there are a ton of other weapons in that kit that can be paired for a pure melee warrior.

[Lexington]

I'm defending the kit as targeting the currect target audience and in doing so I'm making a claim that caring about theme over list building optimisation makes you the real chaos core target audience.

 

The problem with the claim is that there's no real basis for the idea that non-optimized loadouts and scavenging are a specific "theme" of Chaos. It's true in certain individual instances of writing, sure, but not universally. It's like saying that wolf iconography is a core thematic element of loyalist Marines.

[Khornestar]

 

 

I don’t agree with your assessment, nor do I particularly think the fluff is well represented in rules most of the time, nor do I think an army book’s comparative balance should be beholden to such things. In a system where these two units in particular are highly customizable everyone has the ability to equip and play their units how they like.

 

 

 

Everyone who complained about the Chaos Terminator kit not allowing load out optimisation was making a claim that they were the legitimate primary target audience for a Chaos Terminator kit

 

 

Still wouldn't necessarily agree, but I appreciate the elaboration.

[Marshal Loss]

Busy few days in my absence. Overall I'm not against the introduction of "accursed weapons" and preferred the days when power weapons were a cosmetic rather than a rules choice. I like the Chosen models and would like them a lot more if I didn't have to worry about giving them a loadout that's not going to render them an expensive paperweight on the tabletop. Same goes for Terminators. It's a band-aid that wouldn't be necessary if GW hadn't shot some of these kits in the foot to begin with as a cost-saving measure, but it's still better than no fix.

 

The lack of consistency across unit entries (assuming the above is correct and only Chosen and Terminators receive them) is less positive; I don't really want e.g. a lightning claw to mean one thing on one model and another thing on another model. It's silly, and consistent visual language is important.

 

Tyranids coming before us is a disappointment but not a huge deal given that they are likely to be a small release. Hopefully we're out in April because I want to get my hands on some new Possessed already.

[MegaVolt87]

The codex is likely going to be decent but it's going to have enough annoyances with it that will spoil it for CSM vets in the end. Thats my prediction.

[Verbal Underbelly]

 

The lack of consistency across unit entries (assuming the above is correct and only Chosen and Terminators receive them) is less positive; I don't really want e.g. a lightning claw to mean one thing on one model and another thing on another model. It's silly, and consistent visual language is important.

 

 

Precisely this. I don't mind if all power weapons army wide get rolled into a single rule-set but it needs to be applied army wide. Now it would be a shame if lightning claws did get rolled into power weapons because of how visually different they are to a traditional, single handed weapon. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

The codex is likely going to be decent but it's going to have enough annoyances with it that will spoil it for CSM vets in the end. Thats my prediction.

That's how I felt about the Death Guard codex. By the end of 8th edition death guard had the second lowest mono army win rate at like 30%, only ahead of a pure inquisition force. So their new codex was bound to be better but was full of unnecessary annoyances:

 

DR changing from 5+++ to -1D, getting a new legion trait that doesn't apply to every unit unlike loyalist and from the sounds of it the new chaos marine codex, they got -1T mono bonus but nerfed the strength on mower drones, death shroud and flails to compensate (our best melee short of Mortarion and Daemon Princes). Lost death to the false emperor and the damage rollover on the flails (went to strat). Wargear restrictions changed to what's in the box limited plague marines and blight lord loadouts. Nothing game breaking but alot of annoying changes.

 

But the DG codex is better overall than the last one. As I'm 99.9% sure this new chaos space marines codex will be stronger than their last one (better army wide traits, mono bonus, Daemon engines going to 3+ to hit and of course the long overdue wounds increase), that doesn't mean it won't have it's fair share of annoyances / nerfs such as load out restrictions to what's in the box.

 

I'm curious to see what changes from play testing (which the leaks are based off of?) to the actual codex when it comes out. I feel indifferent about the one weapon profile on the power weapons / lightning claws, let's you model them however and speeds things up, but also seems strange and as Marshal Loss pointed out kind of weird that the same weapon has a different name and profile between different units if true.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Putrid Choir

[techsoldaten]

The codex is likely going to be decent but it's going to have enough annoyances with it that will spoil it for CSM vets in the end. Thats my prediction.

 

Similar thought from a few months ago.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/page-5?do=findComment&comment=5763930

 

Pessimism comes with benefits. Either you're right or pleasantly surprised when things work out a little better than expected. Knowing these are the possible outcomes eliminates uncertainty.

 

We're hearing about rules but without info on points / datasheets / relics / etc and have no basis to judge their relevance.

 

What really matters is how CSM are going to compete in the greater meta. My guess is there will be a lot of new, interesting models like the Chosen, but the actual rules will favor Daemon Engines / Monstrous Creates / Armor builds.

 

Right now, it's hard to envision:

 

- how a Cultist HQ would operate in an army that has limitations on the number of Cultist units you can take

- how Legion Traits will be significant in armies composed of units that don't really benefit from them

- how the powerful HQs we've relied on in past editions will offer value given the current structure of detachments and Core restrictions

- any kind of synergy between CSMs and Daemons / other Legion armies

- how this will compete in a Meta dominated by AdMech shooting / Ork Buggies / Drukhari poison weapons / Imperial Knights and other things CSM's have never had great answers for

- how the restrictions on mixed detachments will 'silo' Chaos builds into a specific Codex at the expense of the creativity and flexibility we've enjoyed in the past

- what an actual World Eater's army would look like and what's going to happen with my beloved Khârn / Berzerkers

 

These leaks only explain the upside, learning about updates is always refreshing. The leaks don't give much insight into issues related to actual play, and won't until the book is actually released.

 

The later is what matters.

Edited February 4, 2022 by techsoldaten

[Clockworkchris]

New info

 

Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)

 

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

 

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout

[WrathOfTheLion]

Maybe there's an upgrade sprue for Chaos Space Marines for Kill Team? I know that's been postulated.

 

Those loadout options (the book, etc.) sound exactly like something they would stick in a sprue like that.

Edited February 4, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Clockworkchris]

My source gave me his gut feeling about this and said the same thing that he thinks these upgrades will be coming in the kill team box vs corsairs.

[ApulianAbaddon]

Can we have any proof, even a blurry pic?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

New info

 

Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)

 

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

 

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout

While on the subject of CSM troops.....is their max squad size still 20 or have they been cut down to 10 like many other units (TSons, Plague Marines, etc.). Are Raptors still max 15?

[WrathOfTheLion]

My source gave me his gut feeling about this and said the same thing that he thinks these upgrades will be coming in the kill team box vs corsairs.

I would certainly agree on that, just looking at things like the SoB novitiates with the chalices and stuff, I expect weird things to stick in their hands (like books to make them psykers), and some new melee weapons.

 

I know people have mentioned cultists for Kill Team, but I feel like a KT box with Cultists is just a bit too much in price for them. I'd expect something more on the line of cost of like 10 for $45 or like 20 for $50/55 like the zombies/skeletons for Soulblight in AoS.

Edited February 4, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Clockworkchris]

Can we have any proof, even a blurry pic?

No proof for you

[Warsmith sargos]

New info

Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout

I think icons will be only available to troops like now.

 

I think the gifts of chaos will be same like crytek arcana, so you can use each one of them once and ofc they cost points.

The book idea sound so cool , keep the rumors flooding! If its truth or not! Its better to enjoy it now then to look at my necron army push back each codex release

[Khornestar]

New info

 

Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)

 

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

 

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout

 

My jaw dropped. If you're messing with me I will... be sad. Because that alone would make me a very happy skull collector. The psyker upgrade would make my filthy witch-loving Word Bearers happy.

 

Makes me think of 3 possibilities:

1.) This is just outright untrue, because it's something I've wanted for years. Second only to chosen/HQs on juggernauts making a comeback

2.) This is one of the rare exceptions to the no model/sculpted bit = no wargear option

3.) An upgrade kit for CSM will come out that contains such things.

 

 

 

New info

Helbrutes cannot have icons (i am guessing it is the same for daemonic gifts)

Chaos terminator sorcerer now has a familiar

Csm troops can now purchase a book that makes the unit a psychic unit. Also they can have a 2 handed chainaxe option (im asking what it does and the rest of their loadout

I think icons will be only available to troops like now.

 

I think the gifts of chaos will be same like crytek arcana, so you can use each one of them once and ofc they cost points.

The book idea sound so cool , keep the rumors flooding! If its truth or not! Its better to enjoy it now then to look at my necron army push back each codex release

 

 

When you say troops do you mean infantry or the actual troops role? As chosen, terminators, possessed, raptors, bikers and whatever else can take icons despite not being in the troops role.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Khornestar

[Plaguecaster]

I love the sound of that psyker book

Would be fun playing with pskyer troops in a Nurgle Word bearer list even more so If possessed can do so too

Edited February 4, 2022 by Plaguecaster

[WrathOfTheLion]

I was going to build a third squad of Chaos Marines for my Word Bearers, but I might build the extra box I have to supplement Black Legion or get like a little Red Corsairs patrol going.

 

Psyker troops for my Word Bearers would be pretty damn awesome. I can imagine like a little sorcerer in each one.