What to expect from 9e CSM

[MDops]

Glad he's moved to elites, might be an option if you have some points spare but as a HQ he's dead in the water

Probably just as dead there considering how much we have in that slot

[Hathor42]

I needs some noise marine leaks since they're the only cult troop left.

[Sersi]

I needs some noise marine leaks since they're the only cult troop left.

 Well, he's only been reporting changes to the existing codex. We do know that their troops for EC and troops for everyone else. I don't expect any other changes beyond +1 wound and +1 Attack. They probably change Music of the Apocalypse to remove shooting with 1" of enemy units. They could change to sonic weapons profile, as that changes randomly every other edition it seems. But new weapons and any other options would have to wait for a new kit.  

[Sersi]

Hi Clockworkchris,

 

Do you know anything about the Exalted Champion's or Noise Marines rules? For the Champion at least I hope their were no changes to his rules.

 

Thank you for you efforts.

[helterskelter]

Something I'd like to know is will legionaries keep lascannon/autocannon as a heavy weapin choice and will the havocs/legionaries be limited to box contents or no.

The design of the minis leads me to think there'll still be options, and while not as extensive as before perhaps, there would still be flexibility

[Lexington]

I believe CWC has said that Havocs will be exactly the same as they are now except for an added wound, so they’ll be able to be armed with any combo of heavy weapons.

[Khornestar]

Though I believe to Helterskelter’s point, for the CSM-now-Legionary squads, autocannon/missile launcher/heavy bolter were the only guns that could be found outside of the havoc kit.

 

Wouldn’t be surprised if they lost the ability to take lascannons as a result, with the way things are rumored to be going. Not the end of the world with every other gun remaining an option (in a very sloppy way: linked to 3 separate kits), but not being able to hang back and blast tanks with csm squads would be yet another way the play style of the army is changing.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Khornestar

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, kitwise the chaincannon is on the new upgrades sprue(s) that will be coming with the new CSM killteam, so it is a heavy weapon that is also available outside of the havocs kit.  That said, it is not yet clear how that/those sprue(s) will be available.

[Khornestar]

Yeah as far as I can tell it's just lascannons that aren't part of a CSM/Legionary kit. 

 

I am curious though, whatever the new loadouts are based on kits (or not), if the loyalist codex is going to follow similar restrictions based on their own kits. 

[MegaVolt87]

In the end, I hope most of these equipment restrictions are false. GW going in circles with its design of open ended weapon choices. Will be interesting to see the online store descriptions change because-

 

"Optional components let you build up to two Aspiring Champions, giving you the freedom to build the set as a single squad of 10 or two squads of 5. A Chaos icon, interchangeable components and optional grenades offer you even more choice, ensuring no two units need look alike. The set is even designed to be compatible with the Havocs, allowing you to mix and match heavy weapons for even more choice."- CSM GW online store description. 

 

CSM kit is out of stock apparently (in OZ GW site). Cutting options is dumb.

 

Player- "Oh I want an autocannon, its not in the CSM troop box."

GW- "Buy the havoc box or  its with the start collecting box for one unit you want to equip that way." *

Player-"Oh, there is a lascannon in the havoc box, why is this the only weapon I can't have in a CSM squad?"

GW- "Its not available in the CSM troop box."

Player- ... "I bought the Havoc box to use the autocannon though and have these spare lascannons now."

GW- ... 

 

*spend x2-x3 times the price for the unit you want. 

 

If anything, its more plausible for a new combat patrol CSM box to double down on fixed loadouts. So, lascannon and autocannon should not be options going forward for CSM troops by that logic. Plus the existing start collecting box is due to move to a proper combat patrol, those SC kits are due to be separate by now surely at some point. 

 

I think I am at the acceptance stage at this point with all this. I have plenty of options besides CSM at this point. (My DIY primaris chapter, Custodes, 30k IW's, maybe 40k knights). 

[TrawlingCleaner]

If we go by what we've seen so far and what ClockworkChris has mentioned the logical part of me says: if it's not in the kit/upgrade sprue, the option is likely gone i.e Lascannons, combis and Claws are likely to be gone for Legionnaries.

 

This does give the idea that the Legionnaries are truly more general purpose than more specialist roles with Havocs getting more of the same heavy weapons and access to the Lascannon and Chosen/Terminators get access to combiweapons and Claws.

 

It's not something I'm overly fond of if it's only applied sparingly, especially to factions that have had the options for a long time

[techsoldaten]

If we go by what we've seen so far and what ClockworkChris has mentioned the logical part of me says: if it's not in the kit/upgrade sprue, the option is likely gone i.e Lascannons, combis and Claws are likely to be gone for Legionnaries.

 

This does give the idea that the Legionnaries are truly more general purpose than more specialist roles with Havocs getting more of the same heavy weapons and access to the Lascannon and Chosen/Terminators get access to combiweapons and Claws.

 

It's not something I'm overly fond of if it's only applied sparingly, especially to factions that have had the options for a long time

 

If accurate, that's truly regrettable.

 

Lascannons were a spectacular upgrade for CSM (Legionnaires) in 8th edition, they provided tactical versatility along with a sorely needed ranged option. As Black Legion, they could daisy chain around Abaddon for full rerolls to hit and drop back along the table edge to force opponents to come to us. Along with Havocs / Predators / Scorpius Whirlwinds / certain Dreads, LC CSM were an important part of Chaos gunlines and that kind of list probably goes away in their absence.

 

Starting to question whether we're getting an accurate view of the Codex from these rumors. Not that I doubt what's been shared, or that GW would limit datasheets to what's on the sprue. But I'm looking at Tau and Custodes and wondering "how would CSM stack up against these armies?" Even with Doctrines, our line troops are still Bolter infantry with a couple specials. They will be advancing up the board to face superior shooting / melee / defensive options, which isn't new except that the differential is more extreme than in previous editions. Based on what we've heard, the best lists for CSM are probably Possessed / Daemon Engine rush lists, which would suffer from the decreased mobility on our HQs.

 

There's got to be something more. This shouldn't be a step down from the 8th edition Codex.

[AxeC]

@ClockworkChris one thing I haven't seen brought up yet that's surprising is HQ customisation. We all know 9th is an edition where we get various paid for upgrades for HQ choices. Of all the factions, you'd assume CSM is THE faction that could dial this up to 11.

 

Is there anything around this? Pimping out your demon prince? Ascending your lord with various 'gifts'? Etc etc

Edited March 7, 2022 by AxeC

[Voodoom]

@Clockworkchris : Hello, first of all thanks a lot for the leaks !

I have two small questions :

- Are Icons mark locked ? For example if you want Icon of Wrath do you have to take Mark of Khorne ?

- If you play as Creations of Bile, do you have to take Fabius Bile as your Warlord ?

 

Thanks !

Edited March 7, 2022 by Voodoom

[Lord_Valorion]

No jumppack characters.

 

Now I can throw 4 of my models in the trash.

 

Thanks GW.

 

These rumours ALL sound so :cussty, I thinking about to kick out all my 20k points of CSM. I love Chaos and even have 10 shirts and think about to get a tattoo with the eight pointed star...but I am so fed up. So incredibly fed up...

[techsoldaten]

No jumppack characters.

 

Now I can throw 4 of my models in the trash.

 

Thanks GW.

 

These rumours ALL sound so :cussty, I thinking about to kick out all my 20k points of CSM. I love Chaos and even have 10 shirts and think about to get a tattoo with the eight pointed star...but I am so fed up. So incredibly fed up...

 

Roger that. But getting too upset is premature.

 

Even with these rumors, there is still a great deal to be revealed about the new Codex. We still don't know much about:

 

- Datasheets

- Stratagems

- Relics

- Warlord Traits

- Psychic Powers

- Points

- Faction-specific FOCs

- Interaction with other Codexes (Daemons, Chaos Knights, Cult Legions, etc)

 

So I would not call it a lost cause. Overall, 9th edition Codexes have been improvements over what came before. 

 

Initially, the Deathwatch Codex seemed like warm dog vomit after GW removed SIA from all units other than Veterans. After getting past that change, I came to regard DW as one of the strongest Codexes. It meant getting a lot of new (expensive) models, but I do have a cohesive army that does a lot more than let me pick ammo. 

 

We need to know the rest of the story. Right now, we're mostly hearing about downside changes. When we have more info, could very well be trading JPs for Rebreathers makes sense. 

[Bulwyf]

No jumppack characters.

 

Now I can throw 4 of my models in the trash.

 

Thanks GW.

 

These rumours ALL sound so :cussty, I thinking about to kick out all my 20k points of CSM. I love Chaos and even have 10 shirts and think about to get a tattoo with the eight pointed star...but I am so fed up. So incredibly fed up...

 

I feel this so much. My NL army has almost all jump back characters because that's their fluff. My NL termies are double LC because that's their fluff. Not having jump pack characters would be crippling.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

No jumppack characters.

 

Now I can throw 4 of my models in the trash.

 

Thanks GW.

 

These rumours ALL sound so :cussty, I thinking about to kick out all my 20k points of CSM. I love Chaos and even have 10 shirts and think about to get a tattoo with the eight pointed star...but I am so fed up. So incredibly fed up...

 

I feel this so much. My NL army has almost all jump back characters because that's their fluff. My NL termies are double LC because that's their fluff. Not having jump pack characters would be crippling.

 

This might be GW telling you to buy new models.  

[Marshal Mittens]

While leaks for a lot of stuff has been pretty accurate, I think we should wait to see the new dex and rules before judging.

[MegaVolt87]

Thinking more in 30k, legion vets only have access to HB and ML, stack of special choices and melee options, tac and despoiler squads basically not much of anything. So legionaries do make sense from a continuity standpoint. Though in 40k with such a basic loadout, the rules will have to pump them up to compensate for the lost firepower and melee changes rumoured. They won't be cheap either like their 30k predecessors, they will be at least 18 pts to match SM tac marine. Maybe CSM need to be 16pts and under in the 9th meta in reality even with the buffs. 

[Petitioner's City]

Also as long as you aren't going to tournaments, something that is "no more" is legendsable and house-ruleable - I doubt your friends won't let you use a legends profile for anything. And on house rules, while a book says X, you can justify Y as a continuing option based on decades of options and it working just "fine" (or sub-optimal) in 8th to 9th.

 

I know that's not always a person's approach but legends exists and works "fine", with a bit of TLC and discussion. You have the minis, you can use them :)

[Balthamal]

I think the main issue with the whole stricter unit load outs route is how badly it contrasts with other armies. Like it's fine having a unit of nothing but heavy bolt weapons for marines because there's another 5 unit data slates where they can load up on meltas or plasmas or lascannons or there's about 8 different vehicles ticking that box. What do chaos have? Oblits (which can end up being more heavy bolter than lascannon) or havocs. If GW were really looking at ways to make chaos unique other than spikey marines this isn't the route they should be going down.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've been hoping they're going to do something with basic bolters. Call them Chaos Boltguns or Corrupted Boltguns or something and then give them a small stat bump: a point of AP, D2, something to make them less useless.

[techsoldaten]

I think the main issue with the whole stricter unit load outs route is how badly it contrasts with other armies. Like it's fine having a unit of nothing but heavy bolt weapons for marines because there's another 5 unit data slates where they can load up on meltas or plasmas or lascannons or there's about 8 different vehicles ticking that box. What do chaos have? Oblits (which can end up being more heavy bolter than lascannon) or havocs. If GW were really looking at ways to make chaos unique other than spikey marines this isn't the route they should be going down.

 

CSM aren't meant to win many shooting matches. There was a moment Chosen seemed like a bridge over the gulf between anti-infantry and (expensive) anti-armor units, but alas. 2 combi-plasmas and a couple plasma pistols won't cut it.

 

The real problem is range. Loyalists have a lot of 30"+ AP- options for infantry. That's greater than the max threat range for most of our units. Totally possible for Loyalists to build a list that just falls back to avoid actual threats. We may have units that can shoot far enough, but they have many more and so can bring greater volume of fire.

 

I've been hoping they're going to do something with basic bolters. Call them Chaos Boltguns or Corrupted Boltguns or something and then give them a small stat bump: a point of AP, D2, something to make them less useless.

 

Legion Traits, Doctrines, Icons and Daemonic Gifts can do some of that. Depending on how precisely their trait works, Black Legion Legionnaires with IoF might be an answer for heavy infantry.

 

But I'm not convinced Legionnaires will be points efficient compared to Daemon Engines / Possessed / other fast melee units. A lot hinges on whether we can realistically make charges turn 2 or have to wait for turn 3. The nerf to Warptime and the mechanics of 9th ed charges makes this murky.

 

Another thing to watch for: if Legionnaires have a deep strike Stratagem, their value would go up. Just being a cheap unit that can clear screens so other units could charge would be a good synergy. But you can't do that without mobility.

Edited March 8, 2022 by techsoldaten

[Gene]

I've been hoping they're going to do something with basic bolters. Call them Chaos Boltguns or Corrupted Boltguns or something and then give them a small stat bump: a point of AP, D2, something to make them less useless.

 

Well, according to these leaks, you'll be able to: the Tzeentch Icon increasing the AP of range weapons by -1. It's nothing amazing, Intercessors have that by default, but I'm still pretty happy with that - it was one of my wishes and it might come true.

Hopefully, we won't be forced to buy Daemonic Gifts to use the Icons though. Forcing players to invest more points for stuff you don't need just so they can have a minor buff like -1 AP is a sure way to kill a fun option.