What to expect from 9e CSM

[Clockworkchris]

Obliterators not being core sounds like a real gutpunch to an already-suffering unit, especially combined with what sounds like the removal of the malefic power to reroll 1s to hit and to wound. Maybe it will work out anyway? Black Legion Obliterators with +1 to hit versus nearest unit could be good.

I mean they get exploding shots turn 1 as well, and pretty sure daemonkin will have stratagem support

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Obliterators not being core sounds like a real gutpunch to an already-suffering unit, especially combined with what sounds like the removal of the malefic power to reroll 1s to hit and to wound. Maybe it will work out anyway? Black Legion Obliterators with +1 to hit versus nearest unit could be good.

I mean they get exploding shots turn 1 as well, and pretty sure daemonkin will have stratagem support

 

Perhaps but it does seem like a rules oversight to give core to broadsides and not oblits.  

[Gene]

Perhaps but it does seem like a rules oversight to give core to broadsides and not oblits.  

 

I know fluff and balance are two completely different things, but CORE was supposed represent the core units of the faction. Broadsides are commonly used by Tau, while Obliterators are not really that common, they are more numerous in Iron Warriors, but it's still a pretty rare monster. Especially since the Marines inside aren't human anymore, they are just mindless, hulking monstrosities that follow the orders of their masters. 

[Lagrath]

 

Perhaps but it does seem like a rules oversight to give core to broadsides and not oblits.  

 

I know fluff and balance are two completely different things, but CORE was supposed represent the core units of the faction. Broadsides are commonly used by Tau, while Obliterators are not really that common, they are more numerous in Iron Warriors, but it's still a pretty rare monster. Especially since the Marines inside aren't human anymore, they are just mindless, hulking monstrosities that follow the orders of their masters. 

 

 

Core really seemed to be introduced as a balance function compared to interaction in previous editions. Fluff has little to do with it except they had to come up with a category that made some sense. 

[Aarik]

Thank you to Clockworkchris for all this info!

 

Is there any word on a new obliterators kit?  Their currently only being available in the start collecting box (and being on the same sprue as the venomcrawler), which is now being replaced by a different combat patrol box, makes it seem like they might be due for a separate release.  I haven't seen anything about it in the leaks about future releases, but i'm hopeful because I don't like the current sculpts  .  If they're not getting a separate box, GW would have to sell them along with the venomcrawler in a GSC broodcoven-style box, which seems a bit cumbersome.

[tinpact]

I guess I do like the way they've partitioned the units, at least from a design perspective.

 

A lot of codices boil down to mashing together the best units into a "goodstuff" list. I guess this is sort of an inevitable product of competitive play, but it still bugs me. Here it seems like if you want Daemon Engines, you take Warpsmiths, if you want Daemonkin, you take MoP, etc.

 

Assuming there's decent internal balance between the various options, I can see potentially a lot of list diversity.

Edited March 10, 2022 by tinpact

[Lagrath]

I guess I do like the way they've partitioned the units, at least from a design perspective.

 

A lot of codices boil down to mashing together the best units into a "goodstuff" list. I guess this is sort of an inevitable product of competitive play, but it still bugs me. Here it seems like if you want Daemon Engines, you take Warpsmiths, if you want Daemonkin, you take MoP, etc.

 

Assuming there's decent internal balance between the various options, I can see potentially a lot of list diversity.

 

Where I am hoping they knock it out of the park, after completely wetting the bed for several editions worth of CSM codexes and supplements, is unlocking a lot of strong options and combos for people to customize their CSM armies which is really the core appeal of the army. Marks, icons, and legions can be mixed and matched to really change the performance and role of different CSM datasheets in different ways that are all powerful on the tabletop. 

[Clockworkchris]

Ok final leak of the day

 

2 more custom warband traits, and they are god specific!

 

-After charging, in melee 6s to hit autowound (khorne specific)

 

-in melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (tzeentch specific)

 

Real quick, WB chosen with the khorne custom warband trait is mui caliente.

 

Also NL melta chosen with the tzeentch custom warband trait will flatout wipe the floor in their doctrine.

[Khornestar]

Oooooh yes those are tasty indeed and are a great example of what can be done with chosen. Thanks for sharing.

[Silas7]

 

Terminators

• Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
• 1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
• 3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
• 1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

 

The following weapon options are included in the kit.

 

- 1 chain axe

- 1 chainfist

- 1 power sword

- 1 power axe

- 1 power maul

- 2 power fists

- 2 lightning claws

- 1 heavy flamer

- 1 reaper autocannon

- 5 combi-weapons

 

So why 3 per 5 get power fists? LC losing re-rolls wound removes the weapon identity, why even have chain axes if it's going to be the same as the power weapons.

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

Anyway thanks Chris for sharing

[Cheex]

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

 

Let's wait until we see the actual book, rather than secondhand information from an early playtest copy, before declaring things like this.

[MegaVolt87]

Dark gods forgive me- bought the Tau codex on my lunch break.

:(

[Llagos_Tyrant]

Dark gods forgive me- bought the Tau codex on my lunch break.

 

Regardless of how the CSM codex turns out, the Tau will be fun to play with! Looks like there's lots of interesting options.

 

Agree with the general trepidation. Thinking a lot about these rumours, but without the full book it's hard to judge.

 

Personally I'm really interested in Chaos' Crusade rules. I'm really hoping we get rules for a chaos revolt (similar to Genestealer Cults but more Alpha Legion) or rules for launching a Black Crusade (maybe similar to the Black Templar or Custodes Crusade rules? or the Tau rules for conquering planets?). Kind of wondering if just rules for ascending to Daemonhood and maybe turning a planet into a demon world are more likely (but then the Necron book was a huge missed opportunity for rules to awaken Tomb Vaults and entire Tomb Worlds). Preparing to be disappointed though, unfortunately.

[Toldavf]

Dark gods forgive me- bought the Tau codex on my lunch break.

:(

Having a comander with a jump pack to much of a temptation eh?

[Silas7]

 

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

 

Let's wait until we see the actual book, rather than secondhand information from an early playtest copy, before declaring things like this.

 

I understand your call for tolerance and I won't stir anymore negativity on the codex but to ignore the years of prior design choices and make chaos even more homogenized . It's also not hard to see that plenty of players have been upset with GW for a long time when it comes to design parity (SM vs CSM) and this seems like a step back. (I admit it is pre-mature but I don't think it's uncalled for or wrong)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Ok final leak of the day

 

2 more custom warband traits, and they are god specific!

 

-After charging, in melee 6s to hit autowound (khorne specific)

 

-in melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (tzeentch specific)

 

Real quick, WB chosen with the khorne custom warband trait is mui caliente.

 

Also NL melta chosen with the tzeentch custom warband trait will flatout wipe the floor in their doctrine.

The tzeetch trait seems ok but i dont see any floor wiping happening with 2 melta shots.  The Khorne trait seems kind of lame.  Is it just me or is "6s to hit auto wound" all over the place in these rumours?  I suppose these traits are good for chosen since they are free buffs but the ones you shared here are really bland and fairly weak relative to the rules we are seeing for the most recent releases.    

[Clockworkchris]

Clockworkchris, great work as always putting the master list of rumours together and your continuing rumour drops - helps keep enthusiasm up in these between codex days, though I know I won't be building another melee noise marine unit until I see what the codex does to them.

 

Some clarifications about your list of rumours, though - and if you don't know, you don't know:

 

1.  You refer to some legion traits as "super doctrines" - what does this mean? 

 

2.  For the disco lord, you put that instead of healing vehicles, he can harm enemy vehicles - does this mean he can't heal friendly vehicles, or that he can do one or the other in a turn (like the current warpsmith)?

 

3.  Does the warpsmith retain his ability to do both, or can he now only heal?

 

4.  When you refer to the exalted champion as being a "lieutenant", do you mean only in terms of its aura or is it 2 per slot like a space marine lieutenant?

 

5.  Cult troops can no longer get legion traits - am I correct in assuming Emperor's Children noise marines are an exception to this?  You had mentioned earlier that Emperor's children can take them as troops rather than elites - you might want to put that in your summary under the entry for Cult Troops.

 

6.  Interesting that the accursed weapon on the chosen/termies is different from the daemon weapon on the legionnaires.  Is the chose one weapon from the melee list for the legionnaire champion in addition to the pistol or demon weapon, or instead of one or the other?

 

7.  Do we know if the units with the -1 to leadership ability stack?

1. So ill use space marines as an example, their doctrine level ability are actual doctrines (+1ap to weapons depending on the game turn), but if you play mono chapter you gain a super doctrine ability, example iron hands in the devastator doctrine can ignore the heavy modifier and reroll 1 to hit (calculated fury). CSM is going to be similar, our doctrine is exploding 6s and each legion has a super doctrine that will unlock in a certain doctrine phase. Example, NL getting +1 to wound with assault, pistol and melee in the slaughter doctrine level.

 

2. My source was very clear, warpsmith is for healing, disco lord is for hurting ennemy vehicules. I believe the warpsmith is losing his ability to do MW to vehicules & the disco lord is losing the ability to heal vehicules upon killing vehicules.

 

3.Warpsmith can only heal.

 

4. I am refering to the lieutenant aura, though I wouldnt be surprised that we get some sort of FOS manipulation.

 

5. Yes, NM in EC are going to be troops and still gain access to legion traits, but they are the exception.

 

6. I will ask, but I am guessing it replaces something.

 

7. He told me that he see nothing that says that they cannot stack, this makes sense since raptors and chaos spawn already have the ability to -1LD @6'' and they currently stack (because they have different names)

 

Furthermore, there is a correction, warpsmiths and discolords +1 to hit is for VEHICULES and not just daemon engines.

 

Also there are no boons of chaos. (sad)

[Volgon]

Thank you Clockworkchris for all the rumors, fun to read and speculate about the future. I have two questions:

1) How does the Build a Warband super doctrine work? Perhaps able to select a canon Legion's super doctrine + 2 warband traits?

2) Any information on the "customization upgrades", ala Chapter Command for Loyalist Marines, Pathogens for Death Guard, etc? Perhaps that is what the Mark system is.

[Hathor42]

Oh great and powerful clockworkchris thank you for the CSM leaks.

 

I was wondering if you might also have some Tyranid info that hasn't been revealed yet and if so if you might post it in the tyranid forum since they are so close to release?

[Slave to Darkness]

Dark gods forgive me- bought the Tau codex on my lunch break.

[Balthamal]

 

Dark gods forgive me- bought the Tau codex on my lunch break.

 

That's a call back

[Waaagh?]

 

 

 

Terminators

• Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
• 1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
• 3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
• 1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

The following weapon options are included in the kit.

 

- 1 chain axe

- 1 chainfist

- 1 power sword

- 1 power axe

- 1 power maul

- 2 power fists

- 2 lightning claws

- 1 heavy flamer

- 1 reaper autocannon

- 5 combi-weapons

 

So why 3 per 5 get power fists? LC losing re-rolls wound removes the weapon identity, why even have chain axes if it's going to be the same as the power weapons.

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

Anyway thanks Chris for sharing

 

You are incorrect. You get three power fists in the kit.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Waaagh?

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

 

 

Terminators

• Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
• 1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
• 3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
• 1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

The following weapon options are included in the kit.

 

- 1 chain axe

- 1 chainfist

- 1 power sword

- 1 power axe

- 1 power maul

- 2 power fists

- 2 lightning claws

- 1 heavy flamer

- 1 reaper autocannon

- 5 combi-weapons

 

So why 3 per 5 get power fists? LC losing re-rolls wound removes the weapon identity, why even have chain axes if it's going to be the same as the power weapons.

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

Anyway thanks Chris for sharing

You are incorrect. You get three power fists in the kit.

No, they're right. it's 2 power fists and a chainfist in the kit. Edited March 11, 2022 by Irate Khornate

[Clockworkchris]

There are 3 powerfists in the terminator kit, I just counted them myself.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

 

So why 3 per 5 get power fists? LC losing re-rolls wound removes the weapon identity, why even have chain axes if it's going to be the same as the power weapons.

 

There is some serious design flaws in GW's production pipeline.

 

Anyway thanks Chris for sharing

You are incorrect. You get three power fists in the kit.

No, they're right. it's 2 power fists and a chainfist in the kit.

 

 

*sigh*

 

The new CSM Terminator kit comes with 3 power fists and 1 chainfist. You can see the sprues on the GW webstore.

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marine-Terminators-2019

 

The old CSM Terminator kit comes with 2 power fists and 1 chainfist. You can see the sprues in this thread.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/190710-chaos-sprue-compendium/

 

Clear?