What to expect from 9e CSM

[Toldavf]

Don't forget flamers for Massacre.  On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter.  There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad.  If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

 

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

[ChargingSoll]

Just realised we are in a weird point for chaos. I'm excited for both the 9th edition chaos codex and the new edition of horus heresy and seeing leaks and rumours for both of them. Know they are both different systems but seeing rules for night lords then seeing them again for a different system is slightly mental when both of them ain't officially out yet

[Excessus]

Just realised we are in a weird point for chaos. I'm excited for both the 9th edition chaos codex and the new edition of horus heresy and seeing leaks and rumours for both of them. Know they are both different systems but seeing rules for night lords then seeing them again for a different system is slightly mental when both of them ain't officially out yet

I know the feeling, because I'm the same way. :D

 

 

I'm very excited for getting new rules, and I don't care how mathematically average the legionares are, I will use them anyway, as I always have been. It feels wrong to have a CSM army without any marines in them...

[Hathor42]

I wish csm got more weird weaponry on the troops. All our unique wrapons are on the daemon engines other than the chaingun.

[Hathor42]

Oh could you ask what the weapon options for noisemarines are? Can they take chainswords?

[Khornestar]

This is the sort of thing that 30k does so well that 40k does horribly, and I wished we would see in the 9th edition codex. Just change the :cuss name of something and it becomes brand new, even if it uses an existing model:

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

They stripped down versions of that, like SW frost weapons. Was not a fan of that design choice.

[Warsmith sargos]

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre.  On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter.  There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad.  If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

[Toldavf]

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre.  On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter.  There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad.  If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

 

 

Nope I want our elites to be still capable of threatening something big, under the new rules they wont be any where near as good as they currently are in that role. In short I don't want to see them nerfed which is what is happening. 

 

I apologies for the lack of clarity I was actually referring to a 10 man chosen unit with my math hammer. 

[DesuVult]

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

 

It depends what phase you are referring to.  In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds.  If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.  

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing.  Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.  

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

 

It depends what phase you are referring to.  In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds.  If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.  

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing.  Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.  

 

 

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

 

It depends what phase you are referring to.  In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds.  If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.  

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing.  Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.  

 

 

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

 

It is not since I am not familiar with those things... but i figured it would include a 5++ save since everyone is getting that nowadays.  I presume that chosen will have access to stratagems/abilities that also dial up their damage potential so I wouldnt worry too much about nid warriors being overly durable vs chosen in close combat.  

[DesuVult]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

 

It depends what phase you are referring to.  In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds.  If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.  

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing.  Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.  

 

 

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

 

It is not since I am not familiar with those things... but i figured it would include a 5++ save since everyone is getting that nowadays.  I presume that chosen will have access to stratagems/abilities that also dial up their damage potential so I wouldnt worry too much about nid warriors being overly durable vs chosen in close combat.  

 

Tyranid warriors have access to buffs like permanent transhuman through hive traits and 4++ through synaptic imperative abilities.  Synaptic imperative abilities are the tyranid doctrine equivalent.  Tyranid warriors are also 25 ppm.  MSU chosen are looking to be well over 100 points before any upgrades as legionnaires are 6pl and 5pl units are generally around 20ppm.

[Toldavf]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

It depends what phase you are referring to. In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds. If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing. Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

It is not since I am not familiar with those things... but i figured it would include a 5++ save since everyone is getting that nowadays. I presume that chosen will have access to stratagems/abilities that also dial up their damage potential so I wouldnt worry too much about nid warriors being overly durable vs chosen in close combat.

Chosen probably wont struggle vs a small unit, large ones however will need softening up some what. Still warriors aren't something we will struggle to kill, 3 wounds, T5 and only a 4+ save isn't all that resilient.

 

The nearest analogue I can see to chosen are deathwatch veterans at 20ppm though if the rumours are true chosen will have 1 more attack and wound than them (though they will lack the special issue ammo). I am expecting a price tag of 22ppm.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Toldavf

[HereticalHannibal]

Any word on what the psychic powers will be for the legionary psyker? I’m debating whether to put the psyker in a melee or ranged CSM unit.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

It depends what phase you are referring to. In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds. If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing. Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

It is not since I am not familiar with those things... but i figured it would include a 5++ save since everyone is getting that nowadays. I presume that chosen will have access to stratagems/abilities that also dial up their damage potential so I wouldnt worry too much about nid warriors being overly durable vs chosen in close combat.

Chosen probably wont struggle vs a small unit, large ones however will need softening up some what. Still warriors aren't something we will struggle to kill, 3 wounds, T5 and only a 4+ save isn't all that resilient.

 

The nearest analogue I can see to chosen are deathwatch veterans at 20ppm though if the rumours are true chosen will have 1 more attack and wound than them (though they will lack the special issue ammo). I am expecting a price tag of 22ppm.

 

22ppm for t4 3w seems wildly optimistic.  It is likely to be over 30ppm since going from 2w to 3w is a huge deal and chosen have better default melee weapons and a few special rules.  

[Mike8404]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget flamers for Massacre. On average dice each flamer throws more shots than a bolter. There's no good way to mass them anymore if the weapon limits are correct, which is obviously a bummer, but two flamers throws seven dice on average which isn't bad. If they're combis on, say, Chosen, you can tap those on top of the bolter halves as well for a few extra dice.

I deliberatly discounted flamers because they don't benefit from massacre(no role to hit). We need a dominion style unit or something and an improved anti tank capability. You can't beat nid monsters with the shooting profiles I've seen so far and you certainly can't with the junk melee. 40 damage one attacks is good and all even with +1 to hit and exploding 6's you won't kill a tyranofex or a tyrant, heck all its good for is bullying light infantry.

The Marines are meant to be the stars of the show, but it's looking like cultists and dino bots will steal the lime light and I hate that. In short the design direction is very poor from what I've seen. Of course I don't have the full picture but it's hard to imagine wining the game with lots of mediocre damage.

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. chosens and terminators can still do it also, dont take underestimate the acoursed weapons profile in taking down carnifexs and other infantry units specially with +1 to hit and wound potential

Chosen with the rules revealed so far don't kill tyranid warriors very well.

It depends what phase you are referring to. In close combat, 5 chosen with MoK+icon will rinse 3 warriors(the default unit size) without rerolls averaging around 9 wounds. If the warriors have a 5++ then this goes down to 2 dead warriors but that aint a bad outcome.

 

If you add in a legion trait and factor in doctines then chosen become even more reliable/efficient at nid warrior bashing. Word Bearers with full reroll will on average kill 4 warriors, BL just under 4.

Is that factoring hive traits and synaptic imperative abilities?

It is not since I am not familiar with those things... but i figured it would include a 5++ save since everyone is getting that nowadays. I presume that chosen will have access to stratagems/abilities that also dial up their damage potential so I wouldnt worry too much about nid warriors being overly durable vs chosen in close combat.

Chosen probably wont struggle vs a small unit, large ones however will need softening up some what. Still warriors aren't something we will struggle to kill, 3 wounds, T5 and only a 4+ save isn't all that resilient.

 

The nearest analogue I can see to chosen are deathwatch veterans at 20ppm though if the rumours are true chosen will have 1 more attack and wound than them (though they will lack the special issue ammo). I am expecting a price tag of 22ppm.

Chosen fit more with Company Veterans and, if they're T5 with 3 wounds and a 4+ save, then they're going to cost between Comp Vets and Bladeguard Vets, so around 30ppm

[Toldavf]

I will point out that a nid warrior with dual bone swords and a death spitter has 4 str 7, -2, damage 2 attacks in melee and 3 str 5 shots with-1ap and 1 damage.

 

Statwise the warrior has a strength and toughness of 5 but only a 4+ save he also provides buffs and is obsec.

 

The nid warrior is 25ppm.

 

Likening chosen to blade guard is unrealistic chosen have worse armour, No invu and damage 1 on an individual basis they are much worse than a blade guard.

[Plague _Lord]

Chosen are comparable to swordbrethren - they get a bit better weapon options, have more attacks and a special rule. Powerwise they will be around SB level I guess.

[Hathor42]

Nid warriors will be the first to get nerfed when the FAQ comes out if the points stay from that leaked book(every weapon being free besides cannons).

They can get transhuman in leviathan and a 5++invul from Zoans not 4++ that's monsters.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Chosen are comparable to swordbrethren - they get a bit better weapon options, have more attacks and a special rule. Powerwise they will be around SB level I guess.

They gotta cost more since SB are only 2w.  3w vs 2 is a huge deal given how much dmg 2 is in the meta.  

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I feel like Possessed are going to be more the equivalent to BGV. More wounds, attacks, and damage with a built in Invulnerable save.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

That cultist HQ better have some cool rules because I just cant see anyone giving up a high value spot for a cultist. If all it does is buff cultists it'll never see the tabletop

 

 

Narrative non WAAC people will, Im itching to see what goodies the Cultists get, sick of the sight of marines of all flavours and want to use something different with my chaos. Will it make me a top table tourny player? :cuss no, will I have fun using my thematic army for once, you bet your shiny ass I will. :tu:

[Slave to Darkness]

 

You want our normal legionnaires troop choice to kill nids monsters? Its a job for the dino,oblitz and havoks.. 

What if the player has no intention of buying dinobots or obliterators? Bit crappy if they are the only suitable options. Marines are made out to be the best of the best and can deal with anything, they should be able to deal with anything.