What to expect from 9e CSM

[Clockworkchris]

Its in the command phase

[Slave to Darkness]

Any idea what the max unit size is for non HQ mortal units? 

[Clockworkchris]

Any idea what the max unit size is for non HQ mortal units?

Asking for the accursed cultistncaus normal cultists will still be the same as TS and DG

[Toldavf]

Night lord stratagems:

-no fall back strat (seems unchanged)

-fall back and charge(seems unchanged)

--1 to hit if fired upon (seems unchanged)

- rerolls to hit if Ld is higher then ennemies (used to be +1 to hit)

-there are no more stratagems that influences moral

-lost the stratagem that gives +2 to the charge and +1 to hit in melee from terrain

Ok so our strats seem mostly solid (they already where) loosing from the night is hit and miss as we are getting army wide +1 to charge anyway. 

 

Rerolls on higher leadership seems good as most of the army is ld 9, it will probably be limited to core units but may include characters if we are lucky. 

 

still 6 out of our 8 strats (vox scream and the turn 1 deep strike) seem more than just useable (night lords remain cp heavy yaaaay) and that is pleasing to me. 

 

Plasma bikes are going to be low risk/high reward with "prey on the weak" 8-9 overcharged shots with re-roll to hit will ruin meq. 

 

 

[Prophet of the Despoiler]

Any black legion rumours ?

[Warsmith Anarax]

Some clarification on some datasheets, the crown is supposed to give a 4++ but does the range expand every turn like it does now? And does the disco give +1 to hit rolls for daemon engines in close combat only?

[Warsmith sargos]

Some clarification on some datasheets, the crown is supposed to give a 4++ but does the range expand every turn like it does now? And does the disco give +1 to hit rolls for daemon engines in close combat only?

Hello fellow warsmith!

1) Yes

2) and yes

 

Based on leaks so far

Well just wait for Clockworkchris confirmation

[Clockworkchris]

4++ is expanding, and the disco lord is +1 to hit in melee to VEHICULES so good for dreads as well.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Bit unreasonable to expect a basic troops choice to efficiently deal with tank level units on their own.

Never said efficiently, and I never said on their own, of course its gonna be a challenge but should be achievable if you throw enough firepower or hit it with enough chainswords. Hell I have steamrolled Deathwing armies in combat with Guard by throwing enough bodies at them. 

 

One of the charms of 8th edition was 10 man CSM squads with double lascannons. They could get some work done against light tanks / dreads and presented a ranged threat that was cheaper than Havocs / Obliterators.

 

Versatility has been one of the traditional arguments in favor of CSM over Loyalists. While they may have been sub-optimal points-wise on their own, they were terrific in a gunline role alongside other lascannon / autocannons / missile units.

 

The 9th ed rumors have them with a more limited range of uses. While I could see using them for mid-range anti-infantry / melee, I'm not sure how they compete with a Discolord / DE list, or big Possessed blobs, or whatever the Mutant option turns out to be. It sounds like these would be effective against infantry and light armor along with some other qualities that make them attractive. 

 

Which makes me wonder, what should we expect from basic troops? Bolters and PA don't seem to be particularly useful in comparison, nor do they seem to present any particular threat to AdMech / DE / Custodes. 

[Warsmith Anarax]

4++ is expanding, and the disco lord is +1 to hit in melee to VEHICULES so good for dreads as well.

Does the 4++ apply to the crown itself?

Edited March 28, 2022 by Warsmith Anarax

[Lord_Valorion]

I am very concerned. The leaks sound...OK, so...normal. A nice codex with normal rules. But we live in a world full of devastating Tau firepower, clowncar spam and Custodes shenanigans. What can we do against this? I am afraid that with the new book we stay at punching bag level, just with another flavor. Edited March 28, 2022 by Lord_Valorion

[Clockworkchris]

 

4++ is expanding, and the disco lord is +1 to hit in melee to VEHICULES so good for dreads as well.

Does the 4++ apply to the crown itself?

My guess is yes

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

4++ is expanding, and the disco lord is +1 to hit in melee to VEHICULES so good for dreads as well.

Does the 4++ apply to the crown itself?

My guess is yes

 

DoA if it doesn't. :(

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It currently does. In fact, the aura applies to *any* CHAOS unit -- it's not LEGION locked or even limited to friendlies. I imagine that won't change.

[Warsmith Anarax]

It currently does. In fact, the aura applies to *any* CHAOS unit -- it's not LEGION locked or even limited to friendlies. I imagine that won't change.

That's why I asked. It's got a very broad application as of now.

[Clockworkchris]

Update post, no new info just a complete compilation

 

CSM doctrine:

• Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
• Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
• Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault
• Slaughter ''Doctrine'': pistol/melee

Marks:

• Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS
• cost points
• Marks provide the keyword and a daemonic gift

''Daemonic Gifts'': (Included with mark)

• Khorne: +1S on the charge
• Nurgle: -1 to wound, IF S=T or S/2>=T
• Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save (this is per unit per turn)
• Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase

 

Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)

• vengeance +1 CA
• wrath +1ap melee
• flame +1ap shooting
• excess +1 to hit melee
• despair 6s to hit = autowound

Hereticus discipline:

• Tzeentch 4++
• Slaanesh 5+++
• Nurgle -1 to hit
• Warptime: unit affected by warptime cannot charge afterwards

Malefic discipline:

• DAEMONKIN unit: warptalon, MoP, possessed, obliterators
• +1 to wound
• Bring back a DAEMONKIN model
• 4+ inv to DAEMONKIN units and enemy's take mortals if they charge
• Beat the models toughness on d6 destroy it
• 6's to hit auto wound for a DAEMONKIN unit
• +1 str or toughness (or both if rolled high on test)

 

• All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)
• Each chaos god is getting a couple stratagems, 1 relic & 1 daemon weapon each

 

Legion rule:

 

NL

• -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
• +1 to advance & +1 to charges
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT

• 6" aura that cancels obsec

Relics

• FLY relic (daemon prince only it seems): moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+ 

Stratagems

• Vox scream: cancels AURAS
• Jump pack DS turn 1
• no fall back strat (seems unchanged)
• fall back and charge(seems unchanged)
• -1 to hit if fired upon (seems unchanged)
• rerolls to hit if Ld is higher then ennemies (used to be +1 to hit)
• there are no more stratagems that influences moral
• lost the stratagem that gives +2 to the charge and +1 to hit in melee from terrain

IW

• Ignores cover
• Reduce ap1/2 by 1
• Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

WLT

• Some way to give +1 damage to certain units

 

WB

• Charges/HI = reroll hits
• 5+++ vs MW
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

 

BL

• ignore CA
• +1  to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
• Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)

Stratagem

• strat that lets you change a units legion for a turn.

 

Alpha legion

• -1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
• Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
• Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

Emperor's children

• Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
• Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
• wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6
• Side note, this matches up with a 4chan leak that said TH chosen could hit on 2s with EC (legion trait+icon of excess)
• Noise Marines are troops

Red corsairs

• Charge if they advanced
• Models count as 2 for obsec; Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
• wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

Creations of bile

• +1 str/move
• Fight after death in melee
• wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

''Build a warband'' renegade traits

• +4" to range other than grenade and relic
• After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game
• After charging, in melee 6s to hit autowound (khorne specific)
• In melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (tzeentch specific)
• +1 to wound vs half strength unit (nurgle specific
• +1ap on a 6 to wound unmodified (slaanesh specific)
• +1 to advance and charge rolls
• +1 to hit when targetting clossest ennemy unit
• +1 movement & strength
• Ignore CA/Fallback and shoot/fallback and charge; but with -1 to hit for the rest of the turn (All uncompassing; unmarked specific, so no marks allowed)

WE

• Not in the codex

 

 

Datasheet info:

 

Chaos lord

• base loadout is thunderhammer and plasma pistol
• has access to all melee weapons

 

Abbadon

• 8A s10 ap4 d3, 6+ to wound cuases d3 MW (drachnyen pierce)
• 16A s7 ap4 d1 (drachnyen sweep)
• always fights first
• -1 to wound
• first failed save reduced to 0 damage
• +1s on the charge
• can only take max 3 damage per phase
• full rerolls
• charge bonus
• supposedly very pricy (would be around 300 ish points)

 

Disco lord

• +1 to hit VEHICULES in melee
• Bs2 ws2 s4 t6 9w 6A LD9 2+/5++
• Limited to 1 and cant get multiple boosts (i don't understand what this means yet)
• Techno virus injector: in engagement range all weapons get +1 damage vs VEHICULES
• impaler chainglaive: Suser ap3 d2; on the charge +1 to wound
• the melta mouth weapon is a melta pistol
• claws and tail are 4 additional attacks @ S6 ap2 d2
• mechadentritees: 4x s4 ap0 d1
• ability to wound vehicules: you can corrupt a vehicule: roll a d6 for every wound that a vehicule has on a 6s=1MW (maximum of 6); if you kill an ennemy vehicule in melee you can corrupt 2 different vehichles instead of just 1. The double corruption ability is gained for the rest of the game. Happens in the command phase.

Warpsmith

• Can heal vehicules
• +1 to hit for VEHICULES for shooting

MoE (elite slot)

• Rerolls wounds v char
• 6" heroic intervene
• Hits of six does two mortals and the attack ends 
• Axe got worse Doesn't reroll hits Doesn't explode (does with legion)
• Gains a wound and an attack

Dank Apostle

• all god specific prayers are entirely new
• cast 1 prayer (stratagem to cast another prayer)
• no longer has illusionory supplication

MoP

• Has a staff that causes perils in combat with a psyker
• Cast 2 deny 1
• When casting, can cause d3 mortals to a friendly non daemonkin unit to gain +2 to cast
• Enemy psykers suffer one additional wound if they peril within 12"

Sorcerer in terminator armor

• can have a chaos familiar

Cultist HQ squad

• its a squad, with a banner, a priest and a psyker, + some extra bullet catchers
• The banner:rerolls 1s to hit for cultists & +2Ld to cultists
• psyker: cast 1 deny 1
• priest: knows the basic prayer and another, always lands prayer on a 3+
• squad of 5 models

Lucius

• gains 3 additional attacks
• +1 damage if fighting a unit with a 3+ WS

Harken

• can make a raptor unit reroll hit and wound

Huron

• Gains a toughness,wound, attack & leadership
• His claw doubles his attacks instead of being a powerfist.

Cypher

• In the codex
• can only be hit on a 4+

CSM legionaries (5-10)

• legionaries is the new name for the csm troop unit choice
• same profile as before but 2W and 2a (3a on the AC) 
• Ld9
• loadout:
• AC gets a daemon blade (S user ap2 d2; 6s to wound= 1MW); plasma pistol; can choose 1 weapon fron the melee weapons list
• Any of all legionaires can replace bolter for chainswords
• 1 legionaire can take a special weapon
• 1 legionaire can take a heavy weapon
• 1 legionaire can take balefire tome (cast 1/deny 1)
• 1 legionaire can take a heavy chainaxe (S+4 ap4 d2; -1 to hit)
• 1 legionaire can take a chaos icon

Accursed cultists

• a squad made of a mix of big mutant and small mutants
• big mutant at S5 t4 & ap2 in melee
• small mutant are S4 t4 & ap1 in melee

 

Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

• Are no longuer in the codex
• Act like harlequins in CWE army,  or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
• Always Elites
• can benefit from army rules
• Cannot gain a legion trait

Fallen

• No in the codex

Exalted Champion

• Same loadout as the model (power axe, combi melta & pistol)
• Is elite and is now a lieutenant (rerolls 1 to wound @6")
• Cannot change loadout
• Hits better, more wounds, more attacks

Chosen (5-10)

• 3w
• Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
•  WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
• can take icon
• Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of  traits from the list of build a warband traits
• Loadout:
• everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
• 1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

Terminators (5-10)

• Base loadout combi-bolters, accursed weapons (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolter with autocannon or heavy flamer
• 1 per 5 can replace combi bolter with an extra accursed weapon
• 3 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a powerfist
• 1 per 5 can replace accursed weapon with a chainfist
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolters with up to 2 combi flamers
• 2 per 5 can replace combi bolter with 2 combi melta
• 1 per 5 can replace combibolters with 1 combi plasma

Greater possessed

• Not in the codex (my guess is the models are the new regular possessed models)

Possessed (5-10)

• 9'' s5 t5 3w 5a 3+/5++
• Melee Suser ap2 d2
• Take 2 slots in transports
• Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit

Mutilators

• no longer in the book

 

Warp talon (unit 5 to 10)

• lost cancel overwatch
• gained no fallback
• 5a (these are total with claws)

 

Raptors (unit 5 to 10)

• still have the -1LD aura
• +2a
• Chainsword and pistol
• Up to 2 special weapons
• Up to 2 plasma pistols
• Champ
• Can take plasma pistol
• Power sword or fist

Venomcrawler

• is now FA
• 12" bs3 ws2 s7 t7 9w 6a 3+/5++ (no longer degrades)
• Assault 3 s6 ap2 d2
• Melee Suser ap3 d2
• now gives +1 to psychic tests

Bikers (unit 3 to 9)

• 14" bs3 ws3 t5 3w 3a ld9 3+
• Replace pistol for chainsword
• Up to 2 special weapons
• Up to 2 replace combi weapons with combi plas/melt/flam
• Icon
• Champ
• Plasma pistol
• 1 weapon from Melee weapon

Obliterators (1-3)

• 5" bs3 ws3 t5 5w 4a ld9 2+/5++
• have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
• Not core
• ignore modifier for heavy weapons
• armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
• 24'' range
• Has 3 shooting profiles:
• Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
• Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
• Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4

 

Havocs (5)

• exactly the same as right now but 2w

Noctilith Crown

• T8 14w
• Lash has 8 shots and improved strength but degrades
• Increasing aura every turn of -1l/4++ vs shooting
• PRIEST & PSYKER within 9" can perform an ACTION: perform leadership test, if equal or below, gain 1 CP, can also replace 1 prayer or 1 spell

Other:

• Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits (build a warband)
• The combat patrol is Legionaries/Havocs/Helbrute/Dank apostle
• Stratagem  for JUMP unit : Mw on the charge
• Stratagem  for JUMP unit : -1 attack
• Stratagem daemonforge: +1 BS/WS for daemon engines
• Stratagem : biker strat, if they advance -1 to hit
• Stratagem for nurgle only transhuman physiology 4+
• Stratagem Legionnaires can shoot or fight twice (only source of fight/shoot twice strats)
• Stratagem +1 to hit to CHOSEN or TERMINATORS
• Stratagem fire frenzy: HELBRUTE at the end of the shooting phase, if it was hit, can fire at the unit that shot at it or shoot at the nearest ennemy unit
• No way of giving jump pack to characters
• No murdersword
   

Now for icons, here is a list of markable units who can have icons:

• Legionaires
• Chosen
• Possessed
• Bikers
• Terminator

Here is a list of markable units that cannot get icons:

• Raptors
• Warptalons
• Helbrute
• Havocs

Finally here are the units that have a native -1ld @6" aura (these stack among each other):

• Daemon prince
• Accursed cultists
• possessed
• Chaos spawn
• Raptors

[TrawlingCleaner]

Has your Source said much about Red Corsairs? They seem similar to Farsight in that they'll be present in the Codex to be expanded on later in a Supplement?

Both of Huron's models have gone LCTB and his increase in toughness also makes it seem like a new model is on the way? We've seen a Rumour engine picture originally thought to be a Chaos knight part.

They usually don't include images of models in the Playtest pack but it would be interesting ig your guy has heard anything

[Clockworkchris]

Has your Source said much about Red Corsairs? They seem similar to Farsight in that they'll be present in the Codex to be expanded on later in a Supplement?

Both of Huron's models have gone LCTB and his increase in toughness also makes it seem like a new model is on the way? We've seen a Rumour engine picture originally thought to be a Chaos knight part.

They usually don't include images of models in the Playtest pack but it would be interesting ig your guy has heard anything

Any info I know, you guys know the same except a couple point costs i promised not to share. All info posted above in the recap post is what we know so far.

 

My source does not have images.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

Has your Source said much about Red Corsairs? They seem similar to Farsight in that they'll be present in the Codex to be expanded on later in a Supplement?

Both of Huron's models have gone LCTB and his increase in toughness also makes it seem like a new model is on the way? We've seen a Rumour engine picture originally thought to be a Chaos knight part.

They usually don't include images of models in the Playtest pack but it would be interesting ig your guy has heard anything

Any info I know, you guys know the same except a couple point costs i promised not to share. All info posted above in the recap post is what we know so far.

 

My source does not have images.

 

No worries, I thought I'd ask just in case! The thought of a new Huron model has gotten my Red Corsairs cap firmly on

[WarriorFish]

I'm hoping the Legionary squads still have a plasma pistol option, as aside from being different it has helped my CCW squads out a fair bit against harder targets.

 

The most important thing here is the Dank Apostle though, I'm sure we can all agree he needs to stay :P

[Clockworkchris]

Accursed cultists

- 3-6 big models per unit

- 5-10 small models per unit

 

Vanilla cultists

- 10-20

 

IW stratagem

-5+++ vs MW

-from our short discussion a lot of their stratagems have changed.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Accursed cultists

- 3-6 big models per unit

- 5-10 small models per unit

 

Vanilla cultists

- 10-20

 

IW stratagem

-5+++ vs MW

-from our short discussion a lot of their stratagems have changed.

Could you ask about Black Legion stratagems?  In particular, World Killers.  Im curious if that stratagem is still around and in what form.  

[TheGodOfHammers]

Accursed cultists

- 3-6 big models per unit

- 5-10 small models per unit

Any chance you could ask what the wounds are for these guys? Or at least the small ones? That or a save would be appreciated!

[Clockworkchris]

Accursed cultists

-T4 1w

 

IW stratagem

--1 damage for core infantry & daemonkin.

 

NL stratagem

So i got clarification on the forst turn deepstrike strat

-units in deepstrike or strategic reserves count themselves as 1 turn earlier. 1cp fo infantry & bikers; 2cp for daemonkin

[Iron Inspirit]

Accursed cultists

-T4 1w

 

IW stratagem

--1 damage for core infantry & daemonkin.

 

NL stratagem

So i got clarification on the forst turn deepstrike strat

-units in deepstrike or strategic reserves count themselves as 1 turn earlier. 1cp fo infantry & bikers; 2cp for daemonkin

Now we're :cussin talkin! -1 damage for obliterators, terminators, chosen. *Chefs kiss* 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Iron Inspirit