What to expect from 9e CSM

[Leonite]

Alright, I'm gonna say it.

 

I'm pressing X to Doubt on this one. On the Doctrines, which sound way too organized for what Chaos is supposed to be, on the traits which seem a bit too good to be true, the expanded Cultist stuff which is just wish fufillment, and most specifically on the lack of Jump Lords.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see the viewpoint. But the Jump Lord has only been cycled out recently, and they've flat out said that it's a model that's coming back. That, and wings are such an iconic mutation for our lords, and they choose NOW to limit it? When they could've done so easily by just slapping the Jump Lord with a "Use in Legends" sticker? 

 

Now, if there's some truth to at least some of these? I'll be happy. But the lord stuff especially has me... suspicious.

 

Not even getting into Harkann

Edited April 2, 2022 by Leonite

[Plague _Lord]

Alright, I'm gonna say it.

 

I'm pressing X to Doubt on this one. On the Doctrines, which sound way too organized for what Chaos is supposed to be, on the traits which seem a bit too good to be true, the expanded Cultist stuff which is just wish fufillment, and most specifically on the lack of Jump Lords.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see the viewpoint. But the Jump Lord has only been cycled out recently, and they've flat out said that it's a model that's coming back. That, and wings are such an iconic mutation for our lords, and they choose NOW to limit it? When they could've done so easily by just slapping the Jump Lord with a "Use in Legends" sticker? 

 

Now, if there's some truth to at least some of these? I'll be happy. But the lord stuff especially has me... suspicious.

 

Not even getting into Harkann

 

 

Expanded cultist roster has been rumoured by other sources - specifically the big rumour dump that got the contents of the Eldar v Chaos box correct a few months before release. That rumour stated - cultist hq, cultist standard, new cultists, chaos bikers, new possessed.

 

While narrowing chaos lord loadouts to a very narrow set of weapons/options would be idiotic and anti-fluff, I can see this actually happen - it's very GW like. Of course GW want to add insult to injury with hypercompatible commanders from other armies whereas the army that used to have the most diverse commanders will have the least ammount of options...

 

While I think that most of this is true, probably not all is.

[Mike8404]

Alright, I'm gonna say it.

 

I'm pressing X to Doubt on this one. On the Doctrines, which sound way too organized for what Chaos is supposed to be, on the traits which seem a bit too good to be true, the expanded Cultist stuff which is just wish fufillment, and most specifically on the lack of Jump Lords.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see the viewpoint. But the Jump Lord has only been cycled out recently, and they've flat out said that it's a model that's coming back. That, and wings are such an iconic mutation for our lords, and they choose NOW to limit it? When they could've done so easily by just slapping the Jump Lord with a "Use in Legends" sticker?

 

Now, if there's some truth to at least some of these? I'll be happy. But the lord stuff especially has me... suspicious.

 

Not even getting into Harkann

I'm not surprised with the jump lord going away. I look at the Primaris Line and then at these leaks, Primaris lack a jump HQ so apparently GW things Chaos should too. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpret things.

 

Also, wasn't there a rumor or a statement going around where GW said they were going to cut cultists back for CSM because CSM should be a marine army, not a cultist army? If so, it doesn't look like they meant it

[stayduned]

 

Alright, I'm gonna say it.

 

I'm pressing X to Doubt on this one. On the Doctrines, which sound way too organized for what Chaos is supposed to be, on the traits which seem a bit too good to be true, the expanded Cultist stuff which is just wish fufillment, and most specifically on the lack of Jump Lords.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see the viewpoint. But the Jump Lord has only been cycled out recently, and they've flat out said that it's a model that's coming back. That, and wings are such an iconic mutation for our lords, and they choose NOW to limit it? When they could've done so easily by just slapping the Jump Lord with a "Use in Legends" sticker?

 

Now, if there's some truth to at least some of these? I'll be happy. But the lord stuff especially has me... suspicious.

 

Not even getting into Harkann

I'm not surprised with the jump lord going away. I look at the Primaris Line and then at these leaks, Primaris lack a jump HQ so apparently GW things Chaos should too. I could be wrong, but that's how I interpret things.

 

Also, wasn't there a rumor or a statement going around where GW said they were going to cut cultists back for CSM because CSM should be a marine army, not a cultist army? If so, it doesn't look like they meant it

 

Maybe we get the same limitations as DG? 1 Cultist Unit per Heretic Astartes Unit?

[Sersi]

 

also if the Helbrute with Blastmasters will be a legit thing in the codex

Not a chance. No model, no rules

 

Exactly.  But...it's still legends though so whatever changes are made to Sonic Weapons will be inherited by the Sonic Dreadnought.  

[Plague _Lord]

New squats were in the big rumour dump with the cultists, bikes and possessed so for me pretty much confirmed as true.

[Klamoor]

 

also if the Helbrute with Blastmasters will be a legit thing in the codex

 

Not a chance. No model, no rules

The Legends rules for the Helbrute just say the Helbrute datasheet can purchase two blastmasters and a doom siren if it is Emperor's Children, so they at least future-proofed that. Edited April 2, 2022 by Klamoor

[Sersi]

 

That would be really nice, also if the Helbrute with Blastmasters will be a legit thing in the codex

I doubt it. That's something that happens when a Legion gets a codex. Since EC aren't this edition, I imagine special EC units aren't happening either

 

No worries. They'll get to EC in 10th Edition around 2025-30ish.  

[Cheex]

Hey Clockworkchris, is your source able to provide any information about daemon weapons? Not just the daemon blade that Legionary Champions can take, but the daemon weapons that characters can take as relics?

Edited April 3, 2022 by Cheex

[Toldavf]

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

[Clockworkchris]

Hey Clockworkchris, is your source able to provide any information about daemon weapons? Not just the daemon blade that Legionary Champions can take, but the daemon weapons that characters can take as relics?

I can ask about specifics, but they are confirmed to be in the book.

[Khornestar]

 

Hey Clockworkchris, is your source able to provide any information about daemon weapons? Not just the daemon blade that Legionary Champions can take, but the daemon weapons that characters can take as relics?

I can ask about specifics, but they are confirmed to be in the book.

That would be neat. Their incarnations for the past few editions have been hit or miss, mostly miss. Edited April 3, 2022 by Khornestar

[Clockworkchris]

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

[Cheex]

 

Hey Clockworkchris, is your source able to provide any information about daemon weapons? Not just the daemon blade that Legionary Champions can take, but the daemon weapons that characters can take as relics?

I can ask about specifics, but they are confirmed to be in the book.

 

 

I'd love to hear whatever specifics you can provide. Which ones exist, and are their rules much different to the current daemon weapons?

[Llagos_Tyrant]

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

 

 

That's frustrating. Big missed opportunity there if true, and a shame considering the TSons had upgrades.

[Warsmith sargos]

hey clockworkchris
no new info today? been a few quiet days lately
we need promises of dark gods! to let the galaxy burn 

[Gene]

It seems pretty clear Marks and Icons are supposed to be our upgrade system. Obviously it's not as extensive as other factions' upgrades, but with the stratagems and relics supporting them, Marks will allow for neat customization of our Core and Character units for specific tasks. As long as it's not as braindead as "Slaanesh Tzeentch for shooting, Khorne for melee", even a simple system like that can provide plenty of interesting options. And the current options are already not that obvious: Tzeentch's AP is good and reliable, but Nurgle's autowounding with a Reaper's Chaincannon sounds just nasty. More Daemonic Gifts would be great, sure, but that would also make them one-time upgrades like with other factions - so only one Fight First unit per army, etc.

[Toldavf]

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

 

I guess marks will have to do, less opportunity to play fluffy though for those none chaos legions. 

[Excessus]

 

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

 

 

That's frustrating. Big missed opportunity there if true, and a shame considering the TSons had upgrades.

 

It's CSM, I'm not really surprised that we're not getting stuff the loyalists have. It's been like that for decades. GW gives loyalist captains fighting styles but removes options from chaos lords...business as usual in 40k...

[Hathor42]

 

 

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

That's frustrating. Big missed opportunity there if true, and a shame considering the TSons had upgrades.

Tsons have upgrades because they have very little characters.

[Gene]

Yes, Games Workshop clearly hates us, it's only the second edition in a row in which they are giving us an awesome refresh of our main units and some new ones, along with providing us with supplement-size rules for each subfaction, this time adding them AND custom warbands to the Codex. It's not like every other faction in the game is stuck with one Stratagem, Relic and Warlord Trait for a subfaction, while we are about to get six/eight of each per Legion. Just to compare, GSC have about seventeen Relics. We are about to get at least eighty with unknown number of generic ones.

[Klamoor]

 

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

 

I guess marks will have to do, less opportunity to play fluffy though for those none chaos legions. 

 

 

There are no non-Chaos Legions. We're all Chaos Space Marines. Even if we did get something more like TSons, the abilities would probably all be very Chaos-themed. Daemonic possession, supernatural reflexes thanks to all the Voices in your head, blessings from the gods, etc.

 

 

 

 

Id like to know what hero upgrades we get anything like chapter command?

He said we dont get any of these.

That's frustrating. Big missed opportunity there if true, and a shame considering the TSons had upgrades.

Tsons have upgrades because they have very little characters.

 

To be fair, factions that don't have very little characters got upgrade tables. Death Guard have a pretty large selection of characters. You can even apply some of the Death Guard and TSons ones to squad leaders.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

Fair points, although Space Marines got upgrade tables and I believe they have more choice than we do. That said, I agree it makes sense Marks are our upgradeable abilities. 

 

Not looking to gripe with my previous comment, but I was hoping for more Legion than Warband vibes with the codex. Still, I agree it is fluffy that the degenerate bands of CSM have long lost their old legion structures. I suppose with TSons there are so few actual Legionnaries left that it is maybe easier to maintain the old ways. At least, there's nothing preventing house rules for it in friendly and narrative games.

 

Will be interesting to see if Sergeants can take relics! A nice relic on a Chosen or Terminator Champion could be clutch, and would feel pretty fluffy. Can definitely see Champions jealously guarding relics from their squadmates/subordinates, as well as their commanders.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Llagos_Tyrant

[Special Officer Doofy]

Yes, Games Workshop clearly hates us, it's only the second edition in a row in which they are giving us an awesome refresh of our main units and some new ones, along with providing us with supplement-size rules for each subfaction, this time adding them AND custom warbands to the Codex. It's not like every other faction in the game is stuck with one Stratagem, Relic and Warlord Trait for a subfaction, while we are about to get six/eight of each per Legion. Just to compare, GSC have about seventeen Relics. We are about to get at least eighty with unknown number of generic ones.

You're confusing rules with models. Not a single person in here is complaining about the models or range refresh, just the alleged rules. And the closest faction to compare chaos marines to is loyalist marines, not genestealer cult. Genestealers are the least played faction in the game and was largely absent for a majority of editions of the game. That's kind of a strawman argument. When you compare chaos marines to their closest counterparts, loyalist marines, they still have less of everything. Less strats and relics than the full supplements, no legion locked characters short of Abby, haarkon, Bile, Huron and Lucius (only 3 of which go to a main legion, the other two have their own more limited warbands). They are gaining units but losing some, no more greater possessed, mutilators, no more jump pack characters, units losing wargear options like on the chaos lord.

 

I mean everything is still up in the air. Assuming the leaks are true and not much changed from this version of the playtest, without the point values everything is hard to say. Chaos marines are the largest faction after loyalist marines so they should have the amount of rules, strats and relics to support that. Prior to 8th edition models that came out I would argue chaos marines had the oldest models of any faction bar imperial guard and eldar/DE, so it made the most sense to update their models next. But again, no one in here is complaining about new models, just alleged rule leaks.

[Kaiju Soze]

Having both great miniatures and poor rules at the same time can be true; just look at Howling Banshees before the newest codex.

 

I'm not sure the rumoured rules are bad, aside from the apparently lost options. Most of them seem like improvements. However, so far the rules have lacked any real wow factor and after other recent books that leaves the rumours feeling lackluster to me.