What to expect from 9e CSM

[stayduned]

Yes, that's exactly what I think. The new rules are nice but where are our railguns? Where are our ignoring invul weapons? Where are our luck dices? We also need more vehicles/demon machines that stand out from those of the ts or dg.

Everything we have, they have too. Even our iconic land raiders, predators are worse than those of the thousand sons (5++).there is nothing that makes us unique. Wow we have now chosen

...

[Gene]

 

You're confusing rules with models. Not a single person in here is complaining about the models or range refresh, just the alleged rules. And the closest faction to compare chaos marines to is loyalist marines, not genestealer cult. [...] When you compare chaos marines to their closest counterparts, loyalist marines, they still have less of everything. Less strats and relics than the full supplements, no legion locked characters short of Abby, haarkon, Bile, Huron and Lucius (only 3 of which go to a main legion, the other two have their own more limited warbands). 

 

Loyalist marines are the most popular army in the game, with a big chunk, if not the majority of players having a Loyalist army. This is the reason they are the most supported faction in the game. They are the poster boys. We are always going to lose that comparison, like every other faction in the game. But every other faction in the game is going to lose the comparison to us. Because we are the second most supported faction in the game, receiving more rules than a few factions combined. 

 

We are already treated extremely well by GW. The implication that they keep us bad on purpose is just ridiculous.

 

 

Genestealers are the least played faction in the game and was largely absent for a majority of editions of the game. That's kind of a strawman argument. 

 

Genestealer Cults are treated the same as every other faction in the game except for Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines. Replace them with any other army and the argument stays the same. The closest thing is the Sisters of Battle who received a full supplement in a separate book for one of their orders. We are getting that for eight factions in our main Codex.

 

 

They are gaining units but losing some, no more greater possessed, mutilators, no more jump pack characters, units losing wargear options like on the chaos lord.

 

Like I said earlier, the wargear and jump pack options genuinely anger me. But it's pretty clear the reason for it is GW's new moronic "approach" to kitbashing rather than any animosity. We are hit the most because we've been tied to the Firstborn's options till now, who are slowly going the way of the Dodo.

 

Losing units always sucks, but at least with GPs, Possessed might become a powerhouse if in return. Losing Cult marines is is more annoying to me - not every Plague Marine or Berzerker is from Death Guard or World Eaters respectively, not gaining Legion Traits just doesn't make any sense. 

 

I really hope most of the limitations, if not all of them, won't end up in the released Codex. But you know the quote about hope...

 

 

But again, no one in here is complaining about new models, just alleged rule leaks.

 

I don't mind fair criticism, obviously, I'm just tired of the constant "GW hates us, they just want us to be a punching bag", when it's clearly not case. My post was mainly a response to this: 

 

 

 

 

That's frustrating. Big missed opportunity there if true, and a shame considering the TSons had upgrades.

It's CSM, I'm not really surprised that we're not getting stuff the loyalists have. It's been like that for decades. GW gives loyalist captains fighting styles but removes options from chaos lords...business as usual in 40k...

[Klamoor]

Fair points, although Space Marines got upgrade tables and I believe they have more choice than we do. That said, I agree it makes sense Marks are our upgradeable abilities. 

 

Not looking to gripe with my previous comment, but I was hoping for more Legion than Warband vibes with the codex. Still, I agree it is fluffy that the degenerate bands of CSM have long lost their old legion structures. I suppose with TSons there are so few actual Legionnaries left that it is maybe easier to maintain the old ways. At least, there's nothing preventing house rules for it in friendly and narrative games.

 

Will be interesting to see if Sergeants can take relics! A nice relic on a Chosen or Terminator Champion could be clutch, and would feel pretty fluffy. Can definitely see Champions jealously guarding relics from their squadmates/subordinates, as well as their commanders.

I would honestly be very surprised if we did not get a Champion relics strat. Loyalists, Death Guard, and TSons all got one.

[Special Officer Doofy]

@Gene

 

I agree with some of that, we don't know if the leaks will be what makes it into the books, we don't see the whole picture, we don't know the point costs, etc... People are prematurely casting doubt. But I think some of the complaining is just coping or in jest. Excessus is not one to complain for the sake of complaining, he was one of the only admin's here until very recently.

 

But that argument is weak comparing chaos to xenos factions. Chaos has lots of rules compared to genestealers or other xenos. But not alot when compared to loyalist marines. Are we not allowed to compare them to the bigger more supported faction? Just the smaller lesser factions? That's issue with that argument. I get the sentiment, that it could be worse, but the other half of that coin is it could be better.

 

I think the thing that upsets people isn't the quantity of rules, it's the quality. I play DG and there is about 4-6 strats worth a damn, the rest are pretty much garbage. Same with the relics. People are seeing codexes with tau railguns and tyranid monsters gaining -1D, T8, 2+ armor save with better shooting for about the same points and they are looking at these leaks and getting worried.

[techsoldaten]

Yes, that's exactly what I think. The new rules are nice but where are our railguns? Where are our ignoring invul weapons? Where are our luck dices? We also need more vehicles/demon machines that stand out from those of the ts or dg.

Everything we have, they have too. Even our iconic land raiders, predators are worse than those of the thousand sons (5++).there is nothing that makes us unique. Wow we have now chosen

...

 

Based on the rumors, Chaos does appear to be outclassed. Specifically, I'm not seeing any effective counters to Custodes, Orks, Dark Eldar and Mechanicus. Daemon Engines and mid-range PA infantry with exploding attacks are not the answer to these factions. There's a very real possibility CSM end up in a worse spot with the 9th edition Codex.

 

Then again, I was saying the same thing about Deathwatch. Despite a cold reception at the time the Codex was released, they've performed very well for me in 9th edition.

 

Some facts that bear repeating: the game is 5 turns, primaries and secondaries matter more than kill points, and tables are shorter. We have very little insight into how well CSM will perform in these areas and will not until we see the actual Codex. Much of their success will rest on Stratagems and interaction between different units, and there's not much discussion of these aspects in this rumor thread.

Edited April 4, 2022 by techsoldaten

[stayduned]

 

Yes, that's exactly what I think. The new rules are nice but where are our railguns? Where are our ignoring invul weapons? Where are our luck dices? We also need more vehicles/demon machines that stand out from those of the ts or dg.

Everything we have, they have too. Even our iconic land raiders, predators are worse than those of the thousand sons (5++).there is nothing that makes us unique. Wow we have now chosen

...

 

Based on the rumors, Chaos does appear to be outclassed. Specifically, I'm not seeing any effective counters to Custodes, Orks, Dark Eldar and Mechanicus. Daemon Engines and mid-range PA infantry with exploding attacks are not the answer to these factions. There's a very real possibility CSM end up in a worse spot with the 9th edition Codex.

 

Then again, I was saying the same thing about Deathwatch. Despite a cold reception at the time the Codex was released, they've performed very well for me in 9th edition.

 

Some facts that bear repeating: the game is 5 turns, primaries and secondaries matter more than kill points, and tables are shorter. We have very little insight into how well CSM will perform in these areas and will not until we see the actual Codex. Much of their success will rest on Stratagems and interaction between different units, and there's not much discussion of these aspects in this rumor thread.

 

 

I play Orks and Deathwatch, I'm extremely disappointed with both codices (except Speedmob). If it's similar with the CSM Codex, maybe it's my fault :D

 

Yes, of course we have to wait and see what synergies there are. Stratagems can do a lot, Orcs and Deathwatch Stratagems are mostly junk.

[Montford]

So far from the leaks it looks like Alpha Legion has kept the items, strats etc that I was hoping they would. I am looking forward to the Codex. Thanks for the info updates Clockworkchris!

[Grand_Master_Alpharius]

 

Some facts that bear repeating: the game is 5 turns, primaries and secondaries matter more than kill points, and tables are shorter. We have very little insight into how well CSM will perform in these areas and will not until we see the actual Codex. Much of their success will rest on Stratagems and interaction between different units, and there's not much discussion of these aspects in this rumor thread.

 

I agree with this 100%, I've been playing Alpha Legion pretty much solely for the better part of a year now and I win fairly often. I do this by denying the death of my units to my opponent and holding doggedly onto objectives, so pretty much how you are supposed to do it. I mean, I learned very early on that I was never gonna outshoot anyone, so I had to make some adjustments. To be fair, the Alpha boys have some awesome tricks that really help in this regard, but I win more than I lose purely by playing with all the toys, not by trying to outgun anyone, if that makes sense?

[Clockworkchris]

 

 

 

Some facts that bear repeating: the game is 5 turns, primaries and secondaries matter more than kill points, and tables are shorter. We have very little insight into how well CSM will perform in these areas and will not until we see the actual Codex. Much of their success will rest on Stratagems and interaction between different units, and there's not much discussion of these aspects in this rumor thread.

 

I agree with this 100%, I've been playing Alpha Legion pretty much solely for the better part of a year now and I win fairly often. I do this by denying the death of my units to my opponent and holding doggedly onto objectives, so pretty much how you are supposed to do it. I mean, I learned very early on that I was never gonna outshoot anyone, so I had to make some adjustments. To be fair, the Alpha boys have some awesome tricks that really help in this regard, but I win more than I lose purely by playing with all the toys, not by trying to outgun anyone, if that makes sense?

Same way i play my night lords, you look at the rules 2 seconds and its pretty clear that they are aimed at disruption and not elimination.

 

They really want to play the mission way more then killing stuff. AL & NL are scapels, not sledgehammers.

[danodan123]

I'd love to have a good demon summoning toolkit to adapt during the game for the same reason

[Excessus]

I'd love to have a good demon summoning toolkit to adapt during the game for the same reason

 

Speaking of which, have we gotten any info on the daemonic summoning yet? I can't find anything in the recaps but might have missed it. 

[danodan123]

 

I'd love to have a good demon summoning toolkit to adapt during the game for the same reason

 

Speaking of which, have we gotten any info on the daemonic summoning yet? I can't find anything in the recaps but might have missed it. 

 

 

I don't believe so :( 

[Iron Inspirit]

So, i've now played 5 matches with give or take, the new leaks. I've played with 1700 points against 2k matches in part to handicap myself for using leaks and in part for not knowing point increases. Last night, was 2k vs a good Thousand Sons list, which sported 2 contemptors with multi melta's, missiles and chainfists, a leviathan with dual storm cannons and volkites, and mutliple thousand son predator tanks. 

I brought the Fire Raptor Gunship for funsies, a land raider Achillies, 2 5 man chosen of tzeentch with reaper chaincannon. One had 3 combi melta, the other just combibolters. A 30 man of cultists sat in the backline with a Noctilith Crown on an objective all game. I imagine they drank and sang and danced as the battle went on. 

Fire raptor is god awful for its 400 points. Don't take it unless you are going fluff.

That aside, the standouts of the match were the 2 five man of chosen, who tanked, shot, and melee'd all better than T-son rubrick marines, beating them out in every engagement, and killing most of the 20 tzaangors running around as well. The 1 save from tzeentch was very clutch when the enemy was trying to remove them with mutli-melta's, on two separate occasions. I didnt even play chosen with a 3rd chosen trait at all and they still were walking badass's all match.

-1 ap from 1/2 ap weapons from the iron warriors trait is goddamn S-tier, and S+ when you are in cover and your enemy can't ignore it like you can. 

The match was a bloodbath, but in the end 1 chosen with the reaper chaincannon was alive in one squad, and the other was at full strength. I won 90-40 on VP. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Iron Inspirit

[Dr_Ruminahui]

 

I'd love to have a good demon summoning toolkit to adapt during the game for the same reason

 

Speaking of which, have we gotten any info on the daemonic summoning yet? I can't find anything in the recaps but might have missed it. 

 

 

Given that its in neither of the other 9e chaos marine codexes (Death Guard and Thousand Suns) in my opinion it is unlikely to be in the 9e CSM codex.

 

That doesn't mean its gone away, though, as the daemons codex contains identical summoning rules as the current CSM codex.  It does mean, however, that the summoning rules are unlikely to see any improvement until there is a new daemons codex, when they could possibly go away.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

The match was a bloodbath, but in the end 1 chosen with the reaper chaincannon was alive in one squad, and the other was at full strength. I won 90-40 on VP. 

I dont think Chosen can take a reaper chaincannon.  Did you mean havocs?

 

Shame about the Fire Raptor.  Got any pics of mechanized 1ksons?  

[Iron Inspirit]

 

 

The match was a bloodbath, but in the end 1 chosen with the reaper chaincannon was alive in one squad, and the other was at full strength. I won 90-40 on VP. 

I dont think Chosen can take a reaper chaincannon.  Did you mean havocs?

 

Shame about the Fire Raptor.  Got any pics of mechanized 1ksons?  

 

Chosen can take a heavy weapon, and even normal csm can take a Reaper Chaincannon. They can take it now as well. 

 

I had 1 each in each 5 man squad.

 

Pics are difficult to post here without a third party, sorry!

 

 

[stayduned]

 

Chosen can take a heavy weapon, and even normal csm can take a Reaper Chaincannon. They can take it now as well. 

 

I had 1 each in each 5 man squad.

 

Pics are difficult to post here without a third party, sorry!

 

 

 

 

 

what makes you think that chosen one can carry heavy weapons? 

Chosen (5-10)

• 3w
• Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
•  WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
• can take icon
• Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of  traits from the list of build a warband traits
• Loadout:
• everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
• 1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

[Iron Inspirit]

 

 

Chosen can take a heavy weapon, and even normal csm can take a Reaper Chaincannon. They can take it now as well. 

 

I had 1 each in each 5 man squad.

 

Pics are difficult to post here without a third party, sorry!

 

 

 

 

 

what makes you think that chosen one can carry heavy weapons? 

Chosen (5-10)

• 3w
• Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
•  WS 3+/BS 3+/ 3A (champion 4a)
• can take icon
• Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of  traits from the list of build a warband traits
• Loadout:
• everyone comes with a bolter, bolt pistol and accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolt pistol with a plasma pistol
• 2 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with a combi-weapon
• 1 per 5 chosen can replace their bolter with an additional accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1A)

 

I literally just posted what makes me think it and you quoted it. I think you people are willingly dense. 

[stayduned]

so you think because normal CSM legionnaires can use them, Chosen can too? Makes no sense to me.

 

< Dr. Ruminahui - deleted needlessly repetitive and provocative text >

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

The match was a bloodbath, but in the end 1 chosen with the reaper chaincannon was alive in one squad, and the other was at full strength. I won 90-40 on VP. 

I dont think Chosen can take a reaper chaincannon.  Did you mean havocs?

 

Shame about the Fire Raptor.  Got any pics of mechanized 1ksons?  

 

Chosen can take a heavy weapon, and even normal csm can take a Reaper Chaincannon. They can take it now as well. 

 

I had 1 each in each 5 man squad.

 

Pics are difficult to post here without a third party, sorry!

 

 

 

Oh, I thought you were using the rules leaks from this thread in your game.  

[Iron Inspirit]

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

[TheGodOfHammers]

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

But the leaks here, which you seem to be using for the game, show that Chosen do NOT have access to heavy weapons, at all?? That seems to be where the confusion is coming from

Edited April 4, 2022 by TheGodOfHammers

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

 

Your point about elite vs troops is obviously wrong.  Tactical marines can take multimeltas, lascannons, grav etc etc.  Aggressors, terminators, reivers, company vets, and honour guard cannot.  

 

Since you were playing a house rules "beta" test game I can't be too critical but your choice to let your chosen use chaincannons is an obvious example of cherry picking for advantage.  Since most of the info we have is from this thread you choose to ignore what has been posted in favour of your opinion.  That's fine but don't pretend your choice had any objective basis to it.     

[Iron Inspirit]

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

But the leaks here, which you seem to be using for the game, show that Chosen do NOT have access to heavy weapons, at all?? That seems to be where the confusion is coming from

 

I don't agree with that given all the evidence against it, especially with the new killteam showing off a chaincannon, and now even the chaos knights have an Avenger Chaincannon. GW is clearly leaning one way with this and I seem to be the only one willing to think it might be credible.

[acrozatarim]

The new Chosen miniatures from Eldritch Portents *not* having any heavy weapons does rather imply that Chosen won't have them in the new codex.