What to expect from 9e CSM

[Iron Inspirit]

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

 

Your point about elite vs troops is obviously wrong.  Tactical marines can take multimeltas, lascannons, grav etc etc.  Aggressors, terminators, reivers, company vets, and honour guard cannot.  

 

Since you were playing a house rules "beta" test game I can't be too critical but your choice to let your chosen use chaincannons is an obvious example of cherry picking for advantage.  Since most of the info we have is from this thread you choose to ignore what has been posted in favour of your opinion.  That's fine but don't pretend your choice had any objective basis to it.     

Sturngaurd Vets can carry 2 heavy weapons. Come on, "cherry picker" xD What an absurd notion when I was playing a 300 point handicap game, based on leaks. 

[TheGodOfHammers]

 

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

But the leaks here, which you seem to be using for the game, show that Chosen do NOT have access to heavy weapons, at all?? That seems to be where the confusion is coming from

 

I don't agree with that given all the evidence against it, especially with the new killteam showing off a chaincannon, and now even the chaos knights have an Avenger Chaincannon. GW is clearly leaning one way with this and I seem to be the only one willing to think it might be credible.

 

 

The new killteam is an upgrade kit for Legionaires though, not Chosen? How does one kit getting access to a weapon mean that another kit, which has not been rumoured to get it at all, receives it also? Being the "only one willing to think it might be credible" isn't a valid argument when the credibility of these leaks gets more concrete by the day, and nothing about them show that Chosen get access to the Reaper Chaincannon, let alone heavy weapons. And your Chaos Knights comparison is very strange, because it's two different armies?

[Deffrekka]

 

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

 

Your point about elite vs troops is obviously wrong.  Tactical marines can take multimeltas, lascannons, grav etc etc.  Aggressors, terminators, reivers, company vets, and honour guard cannot.  

 

Since you were playing a house rules "beta" test game I can't be too critical but your choice to let your chosen use chaincannons is an obvious example of cherry picking for advantage.  Since most of the info we have is from this thread you choose to ignore what has been posted in favour of your opinion.  That's fine but don't pretend your choice had any objective basis to it.     

Sturngaurd Vets can carry 2 heavy weapons. Come on, "cherry picker" xD What an absurd notion when I was playing a 300 point handicap game, based on leaks. 

 

 

Sternguard come with a heavy bolter and a heavy flamer in their kit and also any unit from the Space Marine codex is kind of beyond comparison seeing as they where the first codex of the edition, and unit restrictions based on whats in the kit only started with Deathguard. Chosen based off the leaks and the kits dont has access to the chaincannon and most likely wont has access to the chaincannon. The killteam upgrade set is for Legionnaires whether or not if the arms are cross compatible. None of us are cherry picking. I wouldnt even suggest playing with rumoured rules as we dont even know the pts values for these changes. Are Chosen 20ppm, 25ppm, 30ppm who knows. Is the theorical chaincannon the same cost on Legionnaires as it is on Chosen. Whats if chaincannons are now str 4, or 12 shots, or whatever else.

 

We are all frothing at the bit to get our grubby warped hands on the new codex or actual leaks (eldar/nid codex style) and rightfully so, but making unit assumptions isnt the way to do it. Im sure we can all wait 2 (or 6) more months to have our 9th ed codex.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now. 

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

 

Your point about elite vs troops is obviously wrong.  Tactical marines can take multimeltas, lascannons, grav etc etc.  Aggressors, terminators, reivers, company vets, and honour guard cannot.  

 

Since you were playing a house rules "beta" test game I can't be too critical but your choice to let your chosen use chaincannons is an obvious example of cherry picking for advantage.  Since most of the info we have is from this thread you choose to ignore what has been posted in favour of your opinion.  That's fine but don't pretend your choice had any objective basis to it.     

Sturngaurd Vets can carry 2 heavy weapons. Come on, "cherry picker" xD What an absurd notion when I was playing a 300 point handicap game, based on leaks. 

 

You claimed that no codex in the current game contains a troops selection with superior weapon options to its elite section.  This is objectively false as I pointed out earlier.  Sternguard having access to heavies does not make your claim true.  Tactical marines have superior weapon options to many of the elite section in Codex Space Marines.  So when you use this claim as the basis for giving yourself extra options in a game you were CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY doing so in a SELECTIVE manner.  Selective, often more casually articulated as "cherry picking".  Given that you played a house rules game with leaked rules THAT IS FINE.  Trying to pass off your interpretation of the leaks as a likely outcome based on nothing is also fine but do not expect anyone here to take it seriously and be prepared for criticism.     

[Hathor42]

Chosen are more like vanguard vets then sternguard.

[Khornestar]

Cool that you mixed and matched some rules that may or may not be real, but there really isn’t much meaning in terms of what is coming in the codex and how the army will play. We can believe what we want to believe, it makes little difference until we see the codex. Just currently, based on the same rumored leaks used, there is no option for chosen to take any heavy weapons. Essentially home brewing some rules on the fly, which in and of itself is neat but for funsies only.

 

The topic of this thread is what to expect from the 9th edition CSM codex. Please folks, stay on topic. We don’t have a heck of a lot of content going on right now so would prefer to keep this one on track.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Khornestar

[Deffrekka]

Chosen are more like vanguard vets then sternguard.

 

They are more like Company Veterans  we wish they were more like Vanguard Veterans.

[Gene]

They are more like Company Veterans  we wish they were more like Vanguard Veterans.

Company Veterans die for their Captains, Chosen backstab their Lords when they have a chance to take over the warband

[Dr_Ruminahui]

As Khornestar said, but this time with orange text, please stay on topic and discuss the rumored changes, not whether one member's use of those rumours was reasonable.  Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Toldavf]

Chosen in their suggested format are generalist bullies, except that their ability to shoot is mediocre at close range a full unit can manage 12 plasma shots something they can already do, 4 of those shots come from pistols though so at range it drops to 4 shots. In the melta gun stakes we get 4 shots instead of 6 and we need to buy 5 more marines to get the full 4 otherwise its a mighty 2 shots which is kinda trash compared to what they are right now.

Chosen are loosing all the melee weapon access so if for some reason you wanted lightning claws or power fists then you can whistle. The accursed weapon is generally worse than a single claw with some exceptions like 1+ save models however you will still be able to demolish a 1 wound unit, however you encounter problems when you encounter other units that have an elite melee status you just lack the damage to be effective there and your own lack of invun means you wont trade very well at all, so that's a weakness to be aware of.

3 wounds is good but if a unit can demolish nid warriors then chosen are not much tougher and in reality are in some situations more squishy, sure you will soak small arms better but I can think of a few examples where you will be swept from the board quickly. 

All in all chosen have no redeeming qualities over terminators beyond the additional trait they can take (which will have to be big) oh and the ability to ride in a rhino (lol). They have a very set role on the battlefield and can't be set up to take on a different one easily any more and that is the crux of the matter. The new format feel like a side grade rather than anything else, I am waiting to see how our firepower is supplemented to compensate.  

[Marshal Mittens]

Chosen seem to be an excellent choice for adding excellent elite melee that are not as tough as termies but deal more damage, point for point. If I had to guess, they will likely be about 24 or 25 points base each, which should make them pretty decent for their price, melee wise. Maybe even 22 points per model, since they have a nice new kit GW wants to sell. Edited April 5, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[Toldavf]

Chosen seem to be an excellent choice for adding excellent elite melee that are not as tough as termies but deal more damage, point for point. If I had to guess, they will likely be about 24 or 25 points base each, which should make them pretty decent for their price, melee wise. Maybe even 22 points per model, since they have a nice new kit HW wants to sell.

 

20-22 is reasonable. 25 is nid warrior range and these guys aren't anywhere near as good as nid warriors. As for them being elite melee, well they are melee in the elite slot but that's about as elite as they get. They can't face most other marine elites on even terms and you can forget about, anything more scary. 

[techsoldaten]

Chosen in their suggested format are generalist bullies, except that their ability to shoot is mediocre at close range a full unit can manage 12 plasma shots something they can already do, 4 of those shots come from pistols though so at range it drops to 4 shots. In the melta gun stakes we get 4 shots instead of 6 and we need to buy 5 more marines to get the full 4 otherwise its a mighty 2 shots which is kinda trash compared to what they are right now.

 

Chosen are loosing all the melee weapon access so if for some reason you wanted lightning claws or power fists then you can whistle. The accursed weapon is generally worse than a single claw with some exceptions like 1+ save models however you will still be able to demolish a 1 wound unit, however you encounter problems when you encounter other units that have an elite melee status you just lack the damage to be effective there and your own lack of invun means you wont trade very well at all, so that's a weakness to be aware of.

 

3 wounds is good but if a unit can demolish nid warriors then chosen are not much tougher and in reality are in some situations more squishy, sure you will soak small arms better but I can think of a few examples where you will be swept from the board quickly. 

 

All in all chosen have no redeeming qualities over terminators beyond the additional trait they can take (which will have to be big) oh and the ability to ride in a rhino (lol). They have a very set role on the battlefield and can't be set up to take on a different one easily any more and that is the crux of the matter. The new format feel like a side grade rather than anything else, I am waiting to see how our firepower is supplemented to compensate.  

 

Perfect example of why these rumors are a poor substitute for the actual Codex.

 

Totally agree with this assessment of Chosen, the pistol / combi-weapon combo severely limits their shooting and transport remains an issue. Also, if Terminators are actually limited to what's on the sprue, they just become another anti-infantry unit with a mixed loadout.

 

However, if Chosen have a deep strike Stratagem, or something similar to the old Infiltrate rules, that changes things. But we don't know because the constant drip of rumors just teases what's coming. It doesn't answer questions about synergies or special rules that might redeem the units.

 

I know GW has a release schedule and suspect the rumors originate from a marketing firm, given the message discipline. But this might be reaching the point of diminished returns, we're piecing enough together to make a case for why *not* to buy the product. If this is an effort to build hype, it's failing.

[Toldavf]

 

Chosen in their suggested format are generalist bullies, except that their ability to shoot is mediocre at close range a full unit can manage 12 plasma shots something they can already do, 4 of those shots come from pistols though so at range it drops to 4 shots. In the melta gun stakes we get 4 shots instead of 6 and we need to buy 5 more marines to get the full 4 otherwise its a mighty 2 shots which is kinda trash compared to what they are right now.

 

Chosen are loosing all the melee weapon access so if for some reason you wanted lightning claws or power fists then you can whistle. The accursed weapon is generally worse than a single claw with some exceptions like 1+ save models however you will still be able to demolish a 1 wound unit, however you encounter problems when you encounter other units that have an elite melee status you just lack the damage to be effective there and your own lack of invun means you wont trade very well at all, so that's a weakness to be aware of.

 

3 wounds is good but if a unit can demolish nid warriors then chosen are not much tougher and in reality are in some situations more squishy, sure you will soak small arms better but I can think of a few examples where you will be swept from the board quickly. 

 

All in all chosen have no redeeming qualities over terminators beyond the additional trait they can take (which will have to be big) oh and the ability to ride in a rhino (lol). They have a very set role on the battlefield and can't be set up to take on a different one easily any more and that is the crux of the matter. The new format feel like a side grade rather than anything else, I am waiting to see how our firepower is supplemented to compensate.  

 

Perfect example of why these rumors are a poor substitute for the actual Codex.

 

Totally agree with this assessment of Chosen, the pistol / combi-weapon combo severely limits their shooting and transport remains an issue. Also, if Terminators are actually limited to what's on the sprue, they just become another anti-infantry unit with a mixed loadout.

 

However, if Chosen have a deep strike Stratagem, or something similar to the old Infiltrate rules, that changes things. But we don't know because the constant drip of rumors just teases what's coming. It doesn't answer questions about synergies or special rules that might redeem the units.

 

I know GW has a release schedule and suspect the rumors originate from a marketing firm, given the message discipline. But this might be reaching the point of diminished returns, we're piecing enough together to make a case for why *not* to buy the product. If this is an effort to build hype, it's failing.

 

I agree with your third paragraph we just don't know enough, I am of course only speculating off what I can see in a vacuum. 

 

I'm going to shut up about chosen now because I've ragged on them enough. 

[Mike8404]

 

 

Chosen can currently take a heavy weapon, right now.

 

GW has confirmed by their own leaks that legionaires have a reaper chaincannon in the box set.

 

I do not see them losing that option, so an Elite infantry has less and weaker weapons than a Troop choice. Thats opposite of every codex in the game.

Your point about elite vs troops is obviously wrong. Tactical marines can take multimeltas, lascannons, grav etc etc. Aggressors, terminators, reivers, company vets, and honour guard cannot.

 

Since you were playing a house rules "beta" test game I can't be too critical but your choice to let your chosen use chaincannons is an obvious example of cherry picking for advantage. Since most of the info we have is from this thread you choose to ignore what has been posted in favour of your opinion. That's fine but don't pretend your choice had any objective basis to it.

I want to point out Company Veterans can take all manner of heavy weapons. Also, what comes in the Eldritch Omens box for Chosen doesn't mean they're limited to that loadout. Edited April 5, 2022 by Mike8404

[Special Officer Doofy]

Also, what comes in the Eldritch Omens box for Chosen doesn't mean they're limited to that loadout.

Well all the evidence and recent codexes indicate otherwise with limiting wargear selections to what comes in the box. I doubt when chosen get stand alone release they will get a heavy weapon sprue added.

[DesuVult]

My problem I see with chosen, and to an extent melee legionnaires, is that we can see pretty comparable units like assault intercessors, vanguard veterans, and bladeguard veterns from loyalist marine codices.  We can see what makes these units good or bad in the marine codices and I am not seeing what would make them good in the CSM rules so far.  Chosen in particular seem to not have a role except for clearing out 1 wound T3/4 models that lack invuls and are relatively expensive.  Loyalist marine melee elites with invul access reduce chosen damage output rather significantly and then have multi-damage weapons that trade well into chosen. Tyranid Warriors can lack invuls most turns but can get access to one easily as well as rather liberal access to other defensive buffs before retaliating with exception marine killing melee profiles. Custodes, harlequins, and tau are sitting at a 4+ invuls and -1 to hit for harlequins on anything chosen may have any interesting in stabbing.

 

Tactical marines are currently 18ppm, assault intercessors are 19ppm, vanguard veterans are 22ppm with a power weapon, bladeguard veterans are 35ppm.  Looking at the point range for loyalist marines I don't see how chosen will be priced in a way that will make them particularly effective unless CSM rather noticeably undercut loyalists.  Something GW doesn't tend to do with how CSM units have had points tied to loyalist point values even if the CSM unit does not have the same buff or rule access.

 

Chosen have neither the offensive nor defensive profile comparable to anything currently reasonably good and instead have profiles pretty comparable to existing units that aren't good.

 

5 man unit of BL chosen in doctrine with Khorne mark and icon attacking;

 

Custodes Guard: 2 dead, 90 points

Harlequin Troupe: 8 dead, 104 points

Astartes Bladeguard Veteran: 2 dead, 70 points

Crusher Stampede Tyranid Warrior: 3 dead, 75 points

Tau Crisis Battlesuits: 2 dead, 100 points

 

The best target is the harlequins and you need chosen to cost the same as an intercessor when they have icons and marks to clear their point value on the charge.  Harlequins are also the least likely to be chargeable for chosen given the troupe's threat range.  This is also using the doctrine buff in it's best state for the chosen and discounting any doctrine buff for the other factions.  I don't see any way to cut through the reactionary defensive rules other armies have access to either.  One of the most efficient targets I have found for the chosen profile is fire warriors as even with a guardian drone you kill enough of them which to warrant 25 ppm for the chosen in value.  Unfortunately this also involves overkilling the firewarriors by 5 over their max unit size so you need to charge 2 units of fire warriors at the same time and split your attacks between both units.

[BrainFireBob]

Chosen in their suggested format are generalist bullies, except that their ability to shoot is mediocre at close range a full unit can manage 12 plasma shots something they can already do, 4 of those shots come from pistols though so at range it drops to 4 shots. In the melta gun stakes we get 4 shots instead of 6 and we need to buy 5 more marines to get the full 4 otherwise its a mighty 2 shots which is kinda trash compared to what they are right now.

 

Chosen are loosing all the melee weapon access so if for some reason you wanted lightning claws or power fists then you can whistle. The accursed weapon is generally worse than a single claw with some exceptions like 1+ save models however you will still be able to demolish a 1 wound unit, however you encounter problems when you encounter other units that have an elite melee status you just lack the damage to be effective there and your own lack of invun means you wont trade very well at all, so that's a weakness to be aware of.

 

3 wounds is good but if a unit can demolish nid warriors then chosen are not much tougher and in reality are in some situations more squishy, sure you will soak small arms better but I can think of a few examples where you will be swept from the board quickly.

 

All in all chosen have no redeeming qualities over terminators beyond the additional trait they can take (which will have to be big) oh and the ability to ride in a rhino (lol). They have a very set role on the battlefield and can't be set up to take on a different one easily any more and that is the crux of the matter. The new format feel like a side grade rather than anything else, I am waiting to see how our firepower is supplemented to compensate.

Dreadclaw, Termite (to take other HQs with).

[MegaVolt87]

 

Chosen in their suggested format are generalist bullies, except that their ability to shoot is mediocre at close range a full unit can manage 12 plasma shots something they can already do, 4 of those shots come from pistols though so at range it drops to 4 shots. In the melta gun stakes we get 4 shots instead of 6 and we need to buy 5 more marines to get the full 4 otherwise its a mighty 2 shots which is kinda trash compared to what they are right now.

 

Chosen are loosing all the melee weapon access so if for some reason you wanted lightning claws or power fists then you can whistle. The accursed weapon is generally worse than a single claw with some exceptions like 1+ save models however you will still be able to demolish a 1 wound unit, however you encounter problems when you encounter other units that have an elite melee status you just lack the damage to be effective there and your own lack of invun means you wont trade very well at all, so that's a weakness to be aware of.

 

3 wounds is good but if a unit can demolish nid warriors then chosen are not much tougher and in reality are in some situations more squishy, sure you will soak small arms better but I can think of a few examples where you will be swept from the board quickly.

 

All in all chosen have no redeeming qualities over terminators beyond the additional trait they can take (which will have to be big) oh and the ability to ride in a rhino (lol). They have a very set role on the battlefield and can't be set up to take on a different one easily any more and that is the crux of the matter. The new format feel like a side grade rather than anything else, I am waiting to see how our firepower is supplemented to compensate.

Dreadclaw, Termite (to take other HQs with).

 

 

Unpopular opinion- while I love my FW units, must we suffer another codex that needs to be propped up by them vs being a complementary, non essential part of our army? I realize the way we have been talking over this, it seems we are already seemingly bolting on FW units already. 

[Abaddon303]

Not seen anything in the codex rumours except night lords +1" to charge so melee out of a dreadclaw or drill is dead on arrival.

With no inv save I really can't see chosen having any significant comp relevance.

If you're gearing them for melee you might as well take possessed instead with their 9" move and inv. If you're gearing them for special weapon shooting, how many times do you see sternguard/hellblasters etc in even casual marine lists and they can't even take those levels of shooting output.

The thing they have is a bit of versatility and that is very rarely a bonus in modern 40k

[Plague _Lord]

I can see merit of 5man chosen squads of Iron Warriors working and depending on their extra trait they might be decent, especially if one of the traits is infiltration.

 

The 3 wounds seem nice... but possessed also will be 3 wounds, have more attacks, damage 2 weapons, T5, 9'' move and an invul. Even if possessed are 10ppm more, they still seem better as an assault unit.

 

We just have to wait and see the whole rules leak :)

 

Also don't you think it weird that regular legionaries get a sorceror upgrade and chosen don't? Especially when taking under account that back in the 3.5 days it was chosen that had the sorceror upgrade...

[Deffrekka]

I can see merit of 5man chosen squads of Iron Warriors working and depending on their extra trait they might be decent, especially if one of the traits is infiltration.

 

The 3 wounds seem nice... but possessed also will be 3 wounds, have more attacks, damage 2 weapons, T5, 9'' move and an invul. Even if possessed are 10ppm more, they still seem better as an assault unit.

 

We just have to wait and see the whole rules leak

 

Also don't you think it weird that regular legionaries get a sorceror upgrade and chosen don't? Especially when taking under account that back in the 3.5 days it was chosen that had the sorceror upgrade...

 

Chosen might be good in small squads to trade on to objectives that you cant really rely on Legionnaires to take but that is all dependent if Chosen have any ways to be obsec, which im assuming they will looking at most of the 9th ed codexes. Its whether or not they can compete with Raptors in that role who are naturally quicker and still put out a respectable amount of attacks.

[ApulianAbaddon]

News about Black Legion relics and traits pleasE?

[stayduned]

News about Black Legion relics and traits pleasE?

oh yeah, would be awesome :)

[techsoldaten]

 

Also, what comes in the Eldritch Omens box for Chosen doesn't mean they're limited to that loadout.

Well all the evidence and recent codexes indicate otherwise with limiting wargear selections to what comes in the box. I doubt when chosen get stand alone release they will get a heavy weapon sprue added.

 

 

Not all the evidence.

 

The rumor is Havocs keep their existing datasheet, which allows for 4 of any heavy weapon.

 

The box comes with a single Chaincannon, the datasheet states they can take 4.

 

Will be surprised if the rumor is true, and will be disappointed if it's not true.