What to expect from 9e CSM

[techsoldaten]

 

Terminators seem to follow the trend of pushing more for melee, they will still be lethal at shooting, just not DS and annihilate a tarfet, which gamewise is better. You want game to play 4 to 5 turns and no insta win.

 

Not sure I agree with that take. From the standpoint that they will be lethal at shooting, and maybe also with points efficiency.

 

Helps to remember Plasma Termicide was a product of 6th edition, where DS units were subject to scatter dice. They were expensive, one wound models that lacked the loyalist options like storm shields - meaning they were not very useful for tarpitting. For Terminators to ever be considered points efficient, they needed to do something the turn they arrived. They also had to deal with the armor table, which meant sometimes crippling but not destroying a target.

 

The new rumors put Terminators with 3 W and a mixed loadout. Instead of dropping and shooting up, say, a Dreadnought, or a Wave Serpent, or a Crisis Suit, their ideal target would now be infantry / characters and to get into combat. Which makes me wonder:

 

- How do we deal with a Repulsor / Riptide / Gargant / other shooty, high T tank with a decent save and long-ranged guns? The shooting options are Obliterators (expensive), Havocs (fragile), Predators (outclassed) and Land Raiders (overpriced.) The footslogging options are going to take time to get there, and the delivery options for them - Rhinos and Drills - are expensive.

 

- How does this affect the rest of the list? Chaos armies tend to be mid-range shooting, melee oriented, who need time to get into position. The benefit to Plasma Termicide was flexibility, you could reliably damage just about anything in your opponent's force. Losing an option for targeting tanks in the backfield means more pressure on other units for more turns.

 

There's a push / pull to lethality. Sure, Terminators will be able to destroy some units, but are they the right units? I don't know how much a deep-striking, high durability anti-infantry squad really adds to the force.

[DesuVult]

I know having models being made redundant sucks, really does, but if the problem is having minis from 20+ years ago is the bugbear with this, is it really such a bad thing to maybe get some new minis?

It is when the minis are bad like the new chaos lord.

[Gene]

No Overwatch for Warp Talons was practically unusable for other Legions though, good luck making that deepstrike charge when you don't have Icons or dedicated stratagems. Now with Overwatch being a stratagem it's even more irrelevant against most factions. No Fallback is just much more useful for everyone AND still great for Night Lords, assuming it's only active after deepstrike. And if the ability is active all the time/after charging, that's just an amazing unit for any Legion. 

 

(Though No Overwatch is extremely fluffy, those guys literally just appear in existence)

 

Terminator changes definitely suck, though it's not that horrible: most people will still be able to play with their models. If you have a squad with only Combi-plasmas or power fists, you most likely have a bunch of other Terminators lying around. The people most hurt are those who went for Dual LCs squad and some of the owners of the HH Terminators, though it's still can be salvageable. 

 

Terminator Characters are still around and kicking, why the hell wouldn't they? Chris' source most probably doesn't mention the Lord at all simply because he stays the same and we know the Termi Sorc is there since he gets a familiar option.

 

Night Lords seem good and still fluffy. Ld debuffs are still there and relevant, while their melee is strong. Iron Warriors might be even too good, to the point of not being fun to play against. 

[DesuVult]

Terminator changes are that horrible and ld debuffs are comically irrelevant.

 

What's the base loadout target for terminators. What are they supposed to get in there and kill? They aren't particularly durable unless they stay under 30 points. T4 W3 2+/5++ is BGV statline with a point worse of invul and no ability to transhuman. They will get popped by thunder hammers. If 3 bladeguard charge 5 chaos terminators they kill 2. If 5 chaos terminators charge bladeguard they kill 1. Chaos terminators are 28ppm right now and bladeguard are 35ppm.

 

If 5 relic terminators with power fists attack chaos terminators they kill 3. If 5 chaos terminators with accursed weapons attack relic terminators they kill 2.

 

Against assault terminators with thunder hammers it is worse. The chaos terminators still lose 3 but only kill 1.

 

This isn't demanding CSM have the things LSM have. I want iconic CSM elite infantry to be in the same weight category as their peers. Trying to weight of numbers your way through a 2+/4++ or 5++ with 1 damage weapons only really works if you have a large disparity of attacks because power fists kill a W3 terminator in 2 hits while the only weapon you can give a full squad requires 3. Chaos terminator needs something to keep pace and 1 combi-plasma doesn't really cut it when going up enemies like relic terminators who can take a plasma blaster. Loyalist terminators melee outperform chaos terminators with shown rules in every measurable metric. Relic terminators with a power fist and a lightning claw are just so far ahead of chaos terminators it is sad.

 

Chaos terminators and chosen are also generally carrying the elite slot for chaos but are losing the ability to fill necessary roles. Loyalists are retaining units like sternguard that allow them to put melta or plasma squads where they need them or relic terminators that can handle swarms, heavy infantry, and tanks with melee options. Chaos terminators and chosen are, from what I have seen, power sword squads with an extra attack and insufficient mobility to have much threat range.

Edited April 7, 2022 by DesuVult

[Sersi]

Terminator changes are that horrible and ld debuffs are comically irrelevant.

 

What's the base loadout target for terminators. What are they supposed to get in there and kill? They aren't particularly durable unless they stay under 30 points. T4 W3 2+/5++ is BGV statline with a point worse of invul and no ability to transhuman. They will get popped by thunder hammers. If 3 bladeguard charge 5 chaos terminators they kill 2. If 5 chaos terminators charge bladeguard they kill 1. Chaos terminators are 28ppm right now and bladeguard are 35ppm.

 

If 5 relic terminators with power fists attack chaos terminators they kill 3. If 5 chaos terminators with accursed weapons attack relic terminators they kill 2.

 

Against assault terminators with thunder hammers it is worse. The chaos terminators still lose 3 but only kill 1.

 

This isn't demanding CSM have the things LSM have. I want iconic CSM elite infantry to be in the same weight category as their peers. Trying to weight of numbers your way through a 2+/4++ or 5++ with 1 damage weapons only really works if you have a large disparity of attacks because power fists kill a W3 terminator in 2 hits while the only weapon you can give a full squad requires 3. Chaos terminator needs something to keep pace and 1 combi-plasma doesn't really cut it when going up enemies like relic terminators who can take a plasma blaster. Loyalist terminators melee outperform chaos terminators with shown rules in every measurable metric. Relic terminators with a power fist and a lightning claw are just so far ahead of chaos terminators it is sad.

 

Chaos terminators and chosen are also generally carrying the elite slot for chaos but are losing the ability to fill necessary roles. Loyalists are retaining units like sternguard that allow them to put melta or plasma squads where they need them or relic terminators that can handle swarms, heavy infantry, and tanks with melee options. Chaos terminators and chosen are, from what I have seen, power sword squads with an extra attack and insufficient mobility to have much threat range.

 

I'm sure we can all agree that the changes to Terminators and Chosen are terrible, and we'd all like them to be comparable to Loyalists. But GW clearly wants CSM to play a certain way and it not core CSM units. They want us to run Daemonkin, Daemon Engines, and cultists. So we either have to go with the playstyle they want to push or have to work with subpar units.  

[Sersi]

So even more units with strike and sweep attacks with the new Knights rules. It seems strange that the rumors don't mention any changes to the Daemon Prince in that regard.

[stayduned]

@desuvult You're absolutely right. If you then compare us with the deathguard you will feel sick. Their models have t5 instead of t4 and additionally -1 damage. The Bolters shoot at 24 inches in rapid fire and they have real melee terminators. Oh yes, posessed they have too. For long range/indirect fire they have the crawler. I can't think of anything where we could outdo them. Even the normal marines are absolutely superior to ours they are even better at melee combat than our terminator. Chosen have no real place, not good in melee combat, not good in ranged combat, but both somehow medium-good

, and that's exactly what is not useful in the 9th edition I'm afraid this will be a very, very sad codex. And that after all this time...

[stayduned]

@sersi Compare our terminators or marines with those of the deathguard. Ridiculous, the costs will naturally not differ much.

[MegaVolt87]

Any news on bikes and raptor loadouts? Can we sitll MSU special weapons in those units like we can currently? 

[Sersi]

@stayduned  Chosen were never good at melee for the same reasons most of our melee options; no good ways to get them into melee.  Their lack of durability comes second to not being able to  use them effectively.   But at least the were useful with their combo-weapon options, as evil Sternguard.  I fully expect that they and our other units will be over costed to start, only for GW's to reduce the pts  to compensate. Hopefully, it will be sooner than later.

 

Going forward Warp Talons, Possessed, and  maybe chainsword Legionnaires if their cheap enough are the competitive melee choices.  Possessed with a MOP and DA are going to be amazing in combat. Especially for EC where the get: fight first, +1 hit in melee, and +2 hits on 6's. Sadly, Daemonkin are no-longer Daemons, so no more Advance and Charge.   That said I still want to run Lucius, with an Exalted champion, and Chosen with the +1M and +1S trait for fluff reasons.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Sersi

[techsoldaten]

@sersi Compare our terminators or marines with those of the deathguard. Ridiculous, the costs will naturally not differ much.

 

Before a mod comes in and starts moving posts around - this is a thread about rumors, not bellyaching about Blightlords.

 

Right now, we only have rumors. Unless you're talking about the 8th edition Codex, there isn't actually anything to compare.

 

The rumored CSM Terminators are not all bad, but no one's made the case for ever taking them. Which could look like this, using the default loadout:

 

- Under Massacre, 6s to hit are exploding. 5 combi-bolters would do about 12 shots, average, double that at half range. So they get this bonus if they arrive turn 2.

 

- With icon of Flame, those bolter shots would be AP-1.

 

- If they're Black Legion, those shots will be hitting on 2s (as long as it's the closest unit, which it usually will be.)

 

- In combat, they are going to hit on 3s with S5 AP-3 D1 weapons. I think they get 3 attacks base.

 

- And they have the 3W T4 S2+ / 5++.

 

So, shooting or in combat - they're going to average something like 4 wounds GEQ, 2 wounds MEQ, and maybe 1 W against anything tougher. And that doubles < 12".

 

That's not the worst base loadout I could imagine. As long as they're less than 30 points, I'd consider them.

 

But these rumors don't give us any particular reason to take Terminators. No rumors about some Stratagem that makes them superior, no legion trait that makes them into a stand out, no HQ aura that makes them definitively better in a certain role. They're going to deep strike, engage in mediocre shooting, and charge something. They should be around for more than one turn, maybe that allows a better unit to do something more interesting.

 

If you want to take weapons options, the best you could do for a shooty squad is an autocannon, a combi-plasma and a couple combi-meltas. That's not going to make much of a difference. Likewise, with melee - 3 powerfists and a chainfist doesn't excite me. That's just less attacks in a game that favors volume of shots.

 

Provided all this is accurate, you could say 9th edition has made Terminators into the Bouncers of CSM lists. They're going to rough up an opponent without doing too much harm, allowing the rest of the party to continue. Might as well model them with t-shirts that say "Security."

[Sersi]

Any news on bikes and raptor loadouts? Can we sitll MSU special weapons in those units like we can currently? 

 

From what's been shared they're unchanged in loadouts.

[olsol]

Based on what we've seen, how do you all think this new codex will run in a Disciples of Be'Lakor army of renown? Would you potentially be able to use the custom legion traits? Would chosen units still get their single custom trait ability?

 

Personally it could be a needed boost for daemon armies. However, it could be potentially better to just run pure CSM instead (until the 9th edition daemons codex comes out)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That's not quite true - from the rumours from CWC so far, we know that their loadouts have changed slightly (see the latest compilation of rumours here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/371366-what-to-expect-from-9e-csm/?p=5810444):

 

- bikes in addition to their special weapons can now swap two combibolters for combiweapons, though the champ can no longer take one.  This in effect gives bike squads 1 more special weapon than they can have now, or 1.5 if the champ takes a plasma pistol.

 

- raptors keep the same number of special weapons, but it sounds like they can also take 2 plasma pistols rather than taking them instead of a special weapon.  The champ can take a plasma pistol as well, but the rumour is he is loosing access to combiweapons.  This in effect gives them 1 more plasma shot than the current loadout if within 12" (and 1 less than the current codex if outside that).

 

Both these are assuming that under the current loadouts you are giving the champ a combiweapon.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Time for some more orange text.

 

There has been a fair bit of back and forth about how CSM will or will not be terrible with the next codex.  We don't have enough information to come to that type of conclusion at this point, as we do not have the whole picture.  There is much we do not know, in particular how different units will interact or how they will be priced.  As well, we must not mistake a lack of information for something not existing - just because we don't yet have a rumour doesn't mean that a unit or rule doesn't exist.   For example, there are no rumours about rhinos but they will almost certainly be there.

 

Please restrict discussion to what you think of the rumours, and not make generalized comments about the quality of the codex or army.  Posts that do will be deleted or pruned.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Sersi]

@techsoldaten Terminator shooting is just not worth it now, but without Endless Cacophony it was going to be subpar regardless.  I think Terminators with 3 Power Fists and Chain Fist can be good depending on the Legion; if you want to use the models you already have.  EC Terminators hit with them on a unmodifiable 2+, a virtual guaranteed charge out of deep strike, fight first, and +2 hits on 6's. Not to shabby.

[Sersi]

Based on what we've seen, how do you all think this new codex will run in a Disciples of Be'Lakor army of renown? Would you potentially be able to use the custom legion traits? Would chosen units still get their single custom trait ability?

 

Personally it could be a needed boost for daemon armies. However, it could be potentially better to just run pure CSM instead (until the 9th edition daemons codex comes out)

 

It doesn't seem worth it as you'll loose Legion Traits and there isn't any real synergy given what we've been told. Daemonkin don't have the Daemon Keyword anymore so you can't boost them with Daemonic Loci anymore. Which is a real shame since I've run Daemons with my CSM since we were allowed to after the breakup.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Sersi

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Twin-bolter Alpha Legion Terminators with an Icon of Flame are AP-2 on Turns 2 & 3. Combined with the exploding 6s that's a fair few shots with good BS and good AP. And they have a durability buff for a Legion Trait; it dies have a 12" range limitation, but that just means you need to use the Terminators to "prune" vanguard units that are away from the enemy's center of mass. Use them to hurt lone units holding objectives on a flank for example, instead of trying to use them as a hammer against the main line.

 

Counterintuitive, I know, but I feel like our real hammer units are going to be Helbrutes and daemon engines.

[olsol]

 

Based on what we've seen, how do you all think this new codex will run in a Disciples of Be'Lakor army of renown? Would you potentially be able to use the custom legion traits? Would chosen units still get their single custom trait ability?

 

Personally it could be a needed boost for daemon armies. However, it could be potentially better to just run pure CSM instead (until the 9th edition daemons codex comes out)

 

It doesn't seem worth it as you'll loose Legion Traits and there isn't any real synergy given what we've been told. Daemonkin don't have the Daemon Keyword any more so you can boost them with Daemonic Loci anymore. Which is a real shame I've run Daemons with my CSM since we were allowed to after the breakup.

 

Yeah it's not looking good for my DoB army  I might have to put them on hold until both the CSM and Daemons codexes come out. That being said, I can always just pick up Abaddon and go heavy into CSM in the meantime.

[Toldavf]

Terminators in the new book could of been an absolute beast of a unit if hey had kept their options. Imagine NL termies with 5 +1 to wound melta shots or 4 flamers and a heavy. 

The ability to get plasma to proc 2 hits on a 6 for them would of been amazing (btw don't know if people noticed but we have only 3 rapid fire guns available, granted everyone has access to at least one of these but still we lack options here).

 

Nobody is asking for our termies to be better in melee than imperial assault termies, we just want to be able to equip them as we can now. 

 

I think most of us are just angry that our leaf blower units are getting neutered after a number of other armies had their special weapons squads buffed.  

 

If they add an elite choice squad that gets 4 of any special and a combi on the champ it will be picked for every army, before termies or chosen.

At the end of the day its still a marine codex and marines should be the stars of the show, not the engines, not the cultists not the mutants no it should be the marines everything else should play second fiddle.

 

Also isn't about time we got a cheap drop pod added to our dex? Still marines over here. 

[DesuVult]

So what is the mechanical identity of CSM from these leaks?  Chosen and terminators seem built around the models and suffer for it so kind of hem in playing with those units.  Legionnaires still provide some customizability and options though not a big divergence from what other armies have.  Daemon engines are shared with TSons and DG, and honestly kind of lackluster to me still and not something that you can build an army around due to limited numbers and capability.  Without jump packs the HQs can't really be the star carries that they used to be. 

 

That leaves I think mostly raptors, warp talons, possessed and legionnaires.  With the profiles for these this makes me feel CSM is being built out as a brute melee power armor horde faction between SoBs and loyalists.  Throw waves of marines at the enemy with some rear fire support from a daemon engine, havocs, and some legionnaire squads with a heavy weapon.  Trade away some of the special rules interactions of SoBs for more marine style durability and trade away the options and durability of loyalists for a cheaper cost akin to SoBs.  I guess in theory it can work if priced appropriately, legionnaires being 6 pl makes that questionable to me though.  Even at 20ppm legionnaires would be expensive for chaff and nothing shown really plays into newer armies like custodes, tau, or tyranids well.  The is the leak about human cultists but given the leaked roster there I am not seeing what you can really build an army identity around there.

[Toldavf]

So what is the mechanical identity of CSM from these leaks?  Chosen and terminators seem built around the models and suffer for it so kind of hem in playing with those units.  Legionnaires still provide some customizability and options though not a big divergence from what other armies have.  Daemon engines are shared with TSons and DG, and honestly kind of lackluster to me still and not something that you can build an army around due to limited numbers and capability.  Without jump packs the HQs can't really be the star carries that they used to be. 

 

That leaves I think mostly raptors, warp talons, possessed and legionnaires.  With the profiles for these this makes me feel CSM is being built out as a brute melee power armor horde faction between SoBs and loyalists.  Throw waves of marines at the enemy with some rear fire support from a daemon engine, havocs, and some legionnaire squads with a heavy weapon.  Trade away some of the special rules interactions of SoBs for more marine style durability and trade away the options and durability of loyalists for a cheaper cost akin to SoBs.  I guess in theory it can work if priced appropriately, legionnaires being 6 pl makes that questionable to me though.  Even at 20ppm legionnaires would be expensive for chaff and nothing shown really plays into newer armies like custodes, tau, or tyranids well.  The is the leak about human cultists but given the leaked roster there I am not seeing what you can really build an army identity around there.

Bikes seem to be one answer, 4 special weapons per squad for relatively few points, with a chain sword each they would be reasonable. 

 

I think a big problem with deamon engines is their slot, mauler fiends, forge fiends, obliterators, havocs and maybe the defiler when its buffed all compete for the same heavy slots (predators and land raiders don't get a look in nor do vindicators currently). So heavy support is a very crowded area, there's allot of weight on their shoulders because the elite units are a bit toothless.

 

Its not even like out mid range shooting is all that amazing to start with. It's not like we have vast amounts of multi melta access or even anything that is remotely comparable, our strongest ubiquitous anti tank gun is the lascannon which while serviceable isn't as good as allot of guns I could mention in the same role. 

 

Its so important that when our terminators are committed that they are impactful, kinda like they are now. I had a game last week where a 5 man unit tore up a tyranofex with combi melta fire and chain fists. In the new format termies would need twice as many models to get near that level of damage.  

 

I want to see an army with good flexible balanced units, I don't want to see 3 defilers in every list because they are now better dreadknights and therefore the only viable option (They wont be I'm just making a point using hyperbole). 

 

 

[Irate Khornate]

To be perfectly honest I think we are restricted by our Imperial cousins being one of the first armies out of the gates since we have so many similarities in weapons. I also think we are a bit restricted yet again by the death guard being released very early.

[KalmDown]

To be perfectly honest I think we are restricted by our Imperial cousins being one of the first armies out of the gates since we have so many similarities in weapons. I also think we are a bit restricted yet again by the death guard being released very early.

Based on the rumors for possessed (which are in the DG book) it seems this will not be the case. CSM possessed seem significantly more powerful than DG possessed.

[Sersi]

 

To be perfectly honest I think we are restricted by our Imperial cousins being one of the first armies out of the gates since we have so many similarities in weapons. I also think we are a bit restricted yet again by the death guard being released very early.

Based on the rumors for possessed (which are in the DG book) it seems this will not be the case. CSM possessed seem significantly more powerful than DG possessed.

 

I don't think that will be the case. We're getting a new Possessed model kit and GW wants it to sell, and it going to come with the new datasheet in the box. The rule is that you use the current datasheet. So, if DG have the same named unit they'll be getting updated rules as well.