Red Brotherhood

[Rogue]

Hello

 

I've started a blog. If reading math-hammer pieces about different cult units sounds like fun, then you're welcome to take a look. (You're welcome to take a look even if it doesn't sound like fun, to be honest - the more the merrier.)

 

So far, there's a bit on getting the most out of the Patriarch as a combat character; musings on advance and charge shenanigans; a digression into the Guard, thinking about rerolling big guns; and a thing about the best way to arm metamorphs. A couple of these have come out of stuff I wrote here first, so they might look familiar - sorry about that.

 

Still. There we are. You can find the blog here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult

Edited February 9, 2022 by Rogue

[Ulfast]

Looks intersting. I will follow your blog :)

[Rogue]

Thanks Ulfast. If we ever meet, the cookies are on me.

 

New up today - Pauper Princes vs Twisted Helix, acolyte edition. There's been a couple of people commenting recently on Pauper Princes as the pre-eminent combat creed. Significantly, the Sandman (who took a GSC list to a good finish in a recent tournament) said that he'd run the maths, and that the Princes came up tops in every scenario. I can't let something like that go by without checking it out, and as my quick mental maths put bare-bones acolytes at parity against T4, and the Helix ahead against T5, I figured it was worth looking into.

 

You can find the blog here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/pauper-princes-vs-twisted-helix-acolytes

 

There'll be a part two at some point, doing much the same thing with aberrants. Until then, feel free to let me know what you think.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Great read Rogue! It's interesting to see the math palyed out in full!

For me , one of the best things about Princes is that they don't really need to be baby sat. You don't need an icon in the unit or a Primus to fire them into the enemy and do well. That's not to say that Helix desperately need it either but it gives Princes a bit more of an unsupported edge.

 

In regards to the +1 S modifier, GW now use BODMAS (Brackets, Orders, Division, Multiplication, Addition, Subtraction) for strength modifiers, which I think was clarified in an FAQ. It would make Helix S9 with Saw rather than S10, it's definitely stealth nerf for the 8th factions that kind of relied on it.

 

Looking forward to reading more!

[Rogue]

Thank you - glad you find it interesting.

 

And yes, I agree about the babysitting thing. Having done the blog, I feel like Princes suit the 'go wide' approach, with unsupported units all over the place, whereas Helix benefit a bit more from buffs and overlaps forming nasty combat blenders.

 

I get the BODMAS thing, but...

 

In the codex, the creed descriptor refers to adding 1 to the strength characteristic. I've always taken that to mean that the acolyte starts the game at S5 (rather than always being 4+1), because the base characteristic score has been changed.

 

So the rock saw doubles that base of 5 up to 10. If I also had Might in effect, then BODMAS kicks in to make it 11 rather than 12, but that's because Might is an in-game modifier rather than a change to the original characteristic.

 

But it could just be wishful maths and a self-benefitting interpretation.

 

Fortunately, it only really matters against T5, and there's not loads of that around.

[TrawlingCleaner]

To quote from the GoonHammer article that explains this:

 

 

Similarly to Dice Rolls, Modifying Characteristics now follows the same order as dice rolls with one extra step:

2. Rules that Set A Characteristic to a Value
3. 
   
4. Division
5. 
   
6. Multiplication
7. 
   
8. Addition
9. 
   
10. Subtraction
11. 
    

...

 

In addition, modifiers from equipment are processed alongside those from other abilities, so following that order a +1 to Strength from a weapon comes after any doubling or halving effects on a model, while weapons that double your strength are applied before any +/- effects coming from other abilities. This is explicitly different to how it worked in 8th Edition, where weapon multipliers/modifiers were always processed last.

 

 

 

 

I had the same hangover from 8th! I didn't realise until someone else pointed out that I was wrong too

[brother_b]

Ehh I agree with the str 10. Your models, based on their cult creed, start with str 5 before they’re deployed on the table.

 

Is this an incorrect interpretation? Goonhammer is great hit they’re not GW. I’ll take a look for the FAQ.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Page 203 of the 9th edition book under the Modifying Characteristics section: "Apply modifiers in the following order: division, multiplication, addition, then subtraction"

 

It's an 8th edition hangover, I was the same until I read it!

[Rogue]

I'm inclined to agree with TrawlingCleaner, but I can see where it's a little fuzzy, even in the 9th edition rules.

 

The overall rule is clear: "All modifiers to a characteristic are cumulative; you must apply division modifiers before applying multiplication modifiers, and before applying addition and then subtraction modifiers." Under this, you would regard the Helix creed +1 strength as being within the group of 'all modifiers', and so following the rule it would be applied after the x2 strength modifier of the rock saw. Thus, S4 becomes S8 becomes S9.

 

But the next bit fudges that slightly: "If a rule instructs you to replace one characteristic with a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if any) to the new value." Sadly, no example of what this might look like in practice is provided.

 

I'm not sure it flies, but you could argue that "Add 1 to the strength characteristic of models with this Cult Creed" falls under this second rule - we are replacing one characteristic (strength) with a specified value (x+1). If we understand things this way, then S4 becomes S5 pre-modifiers, then becomes S10 when we apply the only 'live' modifier from the rock saw.

 

Explaining it out makes it feel like I'm rules-lawyering, which in turn makes me feel like it's wrong. But it isn't entirely clear, unless anyone wants to bring in a specific FAQ or commentary that settles it one way or the other.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Rogue

[Rogue]

Part two is up, featuring aberrants and a bit more of a dive into the maths behind it all.

 

I'm slowly persuading myself that rock saws at S9 is the right way to go, so I've tweaked the acolyte version to reflect that. It doesn't make all that much difference.

 

Here's the link: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/pauper-princes-vs-twisted-helix-aberrants

[Ulfast]

Very intersting articles, the last wo. I´m myself have been  going with Twisted Helix and have had some success with that in my gaming club. But I´m very intersted in trying out the pauper princes now after your articles Rogue. Always fun to shake your belief around and try something new.

[Rogue]

Thanks Ulfast. I guess that's the point of things like this - it helps us to reconsider what we think, and whether or not our assumptions about how effective something is (or isn't) stand up to being tested. I'm glad it's given you something to think about.

 

I've just posted another one. Following on with the aberrant theme, it's looking at the relative benefits of the Primus' +1 to hit and the Abominant's exploding 6s. It's a reworking or something from the Tactica forum, but tweaked a little and with a more complete conclusion.

 

You can find it here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/1-to-hit-or-exploding-6s

[brother_b]

You’ve got some really Interesting articles these are great. There aren’t many people focusing on GSC which is likely one of the most neglected armies.

 

Rumors say that will change in December so a budding Magus like myself loves these articles.

 

I look forward to seeing your next post.

[Rogue]

Thanks, brother_b - glad you're getting something useful out of them.

 

And yes, fingers on all four hands crossed for a Cult codex this side of Christmas...

[Rogue]

Turns out I really like running probability for aberrants. This time, I've been looking at power picks versus heavy power hammers. It feels like the general consensus  is that picks are the better option, but the numbers don't entirely support that - there are definitely situations where the hammers come out ahead (like killing marines, for example).

 

You can find the blog here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/aberrants

[brother_b]

Great video.  Not sure how to interpret, likely I’ll add a hammer aberrant to my squad. Kind of like a power fist Sgt. in a marine squad.

[Rogue]

It's certainly not clear cut, especially if you're building an all-comers list. If nothing else, I think it shows that picks shouldn't just be the default option for us - hammers have value in some situations. But equally, hammers aren't the only answer, and the picks still retain a lot of value.

 

As I've said before, this sort of thing feels right - it's much better that different options have different strengths and counters, rather than one being a clear winner.

 

In my case, I usually play against marines, so I'm planning to try a squad of hammers to see how they get on...

[brother_b]

If you do use mixed units id definitely attack with the hammers first so you don’t use the 3D on a partially wounded unit like marine, DG etc.

[Rogue]

I know there's a new codex coming, which means all of this might be out of date in a couple of months, but them's the breaks.

 

In the meantime, I've finally got around to something I've been meaning to work out for a while - is a bonesword worth it? It's a bit niche (we only have three guys who can take one), but hopefully still interesting.

 

And as a spin-off, I also ended up looking at the Primus, and a couple of the relics that only he has access to.

 

Rending claws and boneswords: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/rending-claws-and-boneswords

 

The Primus: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/the-primus

[Rogue]

A couple more additions to the blog, taking me up to a dozen pieces. Hurrah for me.

 

This month, I've gone back into a couple of tactica discussions, knocked a couple of the rough corners off, and then posted them as essays (so you might have seen this stuff before, is what I'm saying). One looks at the utility of frag and krak grenades, and which one you should fire at what; the other has a more Astartes flavour, and explores whether rerolling 1s is more useful to hit or to wound (spoiler - it works out to be exactly the same).

 

Looking ahead, my plan is to be a bit more methodical when the new codex appears; until then, I'm more likely to stick with odd bits and pieces of more generic maths that might still be relevant in the future.

 

Anyway. Here's a couple of links:

 

Frag or krak: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/frag-or-krak

Rerolling 1s: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/rerolling-1s

[Rogue]

Hello again.

 

I've got a new blog post up, looking at the new crossfire rules. Not much of the math-hammer in this one - it's more of a breakdown of the rules, who can access them, how we can manipulate them, that sort of thing.

 

To be honest, it's mostly for my benefit - turns out trying to write something like this is a good way to get to grips with all the ins and outs of the rules.

 

I hope you find it useful, and feel free to chip in with any thoughts or ideas :)

 

https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/crossfire

[Rogue]

More blogging. This time, it's a breakdown of the Acolyte datasheet options - I think there's been a shift in the power dynamics of the three mining weapons, and the rock drill now looks very interesting (especially given its abilities to ignore the wound roll completely, largely ignore saves (between AP-4 and mortal wounds), and completely disregard damage reduction. 

 

You can check out the whole thing here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/troops-acolytes

 

(That's definitely the right link, and the page is definitely there, but it's telling me that the page isn't found. It is there, though, if you click through the blog homepage. Anyone know what's happening there?)

Edited January 27, 2022 by Rogue

[Axineton]

Told me the page wasn’t there too but clicking on the see more posts brings up the page and it’s viewable then mate. 

[Rogue]

Thanks - that's helpful to know.

[brother_b]

Excellent as always. The link didn’t work for me either.

 

I of course bought some saws so I have those in spades. I’ll likely be able to build up some drills though so I can have at least one ten man with 4 drills.

 

Again, these blog posts are great for me as I slowly plan out my cult.

 

My real choice to make is either building for Pauper Princes or Twisted Helix!