Red Brotherhood

[Ulfast]

I love your new post. It´s full of good information. 

 

But still I find that the patriarch is to weak! Strange perhaps when you compare him but when you look at the new character that has come out, like Abaddon, Ghaz, C´tan etc he has very little chance to beat them. But I don´t know what GW could do to make him better?

[brother_b]

That’s a great point, Ulfast. We have no comparable “lord of war” type entry to use, or powerful character. In fact, I can’t think of any other army that doesn’t have some sort of centerpiece model or LOW.

Im also not trying to say that those character/LOW units are the best most meta-breaking either. Sure Tau have the Stormsurge but do they use it? Are baneblades good for IG?

Still, when looking at Moren Val, Abaddon, primarchs, etc. it definitely feels lacking.

Nameless and faceless hordes of the downtrodden we are, fighting for our star lords. Guess we make due with what we’ve got.

 

 

[Rogue]

Exactly. The patriarch isn't our Abbadon, Vahl, or Tigurius. I'm not sure he's even our chapter master. It feels like he's more of a captain equivalent (albeit less resilient and a lot more psychic). 

[brother_b]

So I’ve signed up for the friendly LVO tournament for 2023. I need to pick my army.

I’ve got a bunch of painted admech and could field a nice army with them. I’ve also got white scars that are fun and could finish that army.

I’m really feeling the pull to play GSC though. I’ve only got an icon ward and one neophyte squad painted. I’m also torn between Helix and Pauper princes.

I may do muscle beach for fun, or a pauper horde army for more painting but again something fun.

I wanted to post that here as this is the most lively topic and you’re in the know so to say.

How would you lean?

 

[Rogue]

I like aberrants. I don't think they're very good (certainly not when compared to genestealers), but I like them. If you're looking for something fun rather than fiercely competitive, I'd go with the muscle Beach approach, and load up on a ton of aberrants, the Abominant and a biophagus (with the Alchemist Supreme upgrade).

Helix feels like it should be the natural home of aberrants, but the creed isn't  a great fit. A 7" move is nice, certainly; but going to S9 makes very little difference against most targets, and not-being-wounded-on-2s only kicks in against S10 weapons. On the other hand, the Monstrous Bio-Horrors stratagem gives them some flex into 1-wound targets, which is handy.

Princes gives you +1 to hit (and realistically, we often want to kill whatever we hit, so it being first round only is less of a worry), so we'll often be hitting and wounding on 2s (especially if we can trigger the somewhat situational Vengeance stratagem against any T5+ targets).

One other option worth considering is the Bladed Cog - a 6++ save, and a single rerollable wound isn't super exciting, but the stratagem allows us to boost that to 5++ (on multiple units, if we can afford it). If we then use the Biophagus to add a 5+ FNP, we're looking a fairly tanky unit - T5, 3 wounds, 5++ save and 5+ FNP. [It takes around 27 bolter shots to kill one aberrant - 27 shots, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 4 beat the save, 3 beat the FNP. Just saying.]

Imagine 20 or 30 aberrants jumping out of trucks, lumbering into the centre of the enemy lines, shrugging off firepower and then blatting anything they come into contact with. And even if they don't, it would be a glorious attempt.

So that's my suggestion - pile on the muscle, give serious consideration to Bladed Cog, and flatten anything that gets in your way.

How does that sound to you?

[brother_b]

Sounds like what I’ve been contemplating. I’m going to say no to the cog, I very much thought about it and like that potential 5++ but don’t “feel” the faction if that makes sense.

That leaves us with Pauper or Helix. You’re right the +1 str won’t mean much but the move and mini transhuman is very nice. Plus I could beast out a patriarch and run some genestealers as well.

Pauper would be cool. The +1 to hit on aberrants would be very helpful, I’d even take the Abominant.

Then a healthy swarm of neophytes sounds very interesting.

Let me find my book and I’ll throw some more thoughts out. Thanks for your input!

[Rogue]

Yeah, if you're going to run genestealers, then Helix is great - 9" move and S5 are both very handy (with S5 being helpful into T4 and T5). They also benefit from the Helix psychic power, as the sheer number of attacks they can put out means you'll land a number of AP-3 wounds on anything, even before the wound rolls. 

[Rogue]

It's been a bit of a hobby weekend, it seems - on top of finishing a Rockgrinder, and fitting in a 1000 point battle this morning (against Orks, it did not go well), I've also finished another blog. It's nominally about the Magus, but is really a chance to look at the comparative pros and cons of the Crouchling and Unwilling Orb relics. The numbers didn't quite play out as I expected, and I think they might both have a role to play in different ways. I'm even giving serious thought to running both at the same time, just to see what happens.

As ever, please feel free to share any thoughts, comments, or ideas - I always enjoy a bit of GSC chat. 

Here's the link: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/hq-magus

[Ulfast]

Yet another very intersting post. I love to read them. But the phycic bit is often not a big problem (ecept playing my friend with Grey knights). Our powers are nice and with boosted relics they often go off when you need them. But still I have been thinking if those points for a magus is better spent elsewhere? What do you think?

[Rogue]

I don't know. I'm not sure I've really got the Magus working correctly yet - I seem to end up with him hiding somewhere in the backfield, trying not to get shot whilst failing to have either the sight-lines or range to do much to affect the battle (unless I drop CP on Gestalt Consciousness each turn).

In the few games when I have got it right, the ability to drop four powers around the board can give some serious combat edge - 5 attacks on 'stealers, or fight last on a key unit can tip things a little more in our favour.

I'm not convinced by the Iconward or the Alphus, but the Primus is a straight swap, points-wise, and offers some useful buffs. So maybe that's worth playing around with.

[Ulfast]

Yes, GSC has so many character and it´s hard to figure out which are good option and who are traps. To make it even harder I think is that in some game a character, like the magus, can shine an din the next doing nothing and being lost points. I regular like the Primus, and also our biohagus. But the other is hard to use.

[Rogue]

I've managed to get in a couple of games over the past fortnight or so, with the second being an absolute stormer. It went something like this:

Red Brotherhood

• Patriarch, preternatural speed, unwilling orb
• Magus
• 10 Acolytes, 4 rock drills, A Trap Sprung
• 10 Acolytes, 4 rock saws
• 10 Neophytes, shotguns
• 10 Genestealers, They Came from Below
• 10 Genestealers
• Nexos
• Goliath truck

Space Wolves

• Primaris Captain, advance and charge saga
• Primaris Librarian, Armour of Russ, 6+ FNP saga
• 5 assault intercessors
• 5 incursors
• 3 aggressors, boltstorm
• 3 thunderwolf cavalry
• 5 jump-pack guys with lightning claws
• 2 command squad
• Melta bike

We were playing Tempest at incursion size - Direct Assault, corner deployments. I went first.

The Wolves deploy in a cluster, screened by intercessors, with incursors on the tower. The three multi-storey buildings are obscuring ruins, and the walkways are dense terrain. The fourth objective is hidden behind the terrain the Wolves are standing on. And because the table is small and the terrain tightly packed, we're being quite flexible about vehicles and large bases fitting through small gaps.

The Red Brotherhood take the initiative, and prepare to strike. The genestealers on my left have They Came from Below, and are about to move up 9".

 

Turn One : 7-12

Both broods of genestealers sprang forwards, charging the incursors and the intercessors, and wiping out both. The brood that slew the intercessors consolidated into the attack bike. The rock saw acolytes moved into cover behind the containers, taking the objective at the northern end of no-man's land. [This was a bit of a gamble. Neither brood was likely to survive the counter-strike, and had gone after squads worth less points than them - not a great trade. However, they'd screened off my left flank and the centre, making it difficult for the Wolves to go after either neutral objective. I'd also removed a lot of his firepower, and bodies - 10 of his initial 25 models (albeit at the probable cost of 20 of my 54).]

As so it turned out. His secondaries meant he chose not to fall back with the melta bike, so the aggressors' fire went into the centre stealers, who were then charged and finished off by the jump-pack unit. Almost everyone else attacked and wiped out the other genestealer brood, except for the two veterans who claimed the centre objective. He had, however, abandoned his home objective during all this. 

Turn Two : 34:-34

My secondaries gave me a quandary - I could use my rock saw acolytes to attack the Wolf flank, or leave them in place to collect an easy 10 VPs. I went with victory points; and with the neophytes and characters remaining put for a second turn, my only real moves were to hit the jump-pack unit with smites and a psionic blast, killing two, and drop the rock drills into the far corner, charging into the thunderwolves and wiping them out (inflicting exactly the 12 wounds needed), tagging the bike again, and taking the Wolf home objective. [Another gamble, but more balanced, I think. The cavalry had the potential to do a lot of damage, both in kills and taking objectives, and trading out the rock drills to neuter them (and as it turned out, kill them all) seemed worthwhile. Leaving the other acolytes back was a risk too, but hopefully putting the rock drills in would give enough to think about in his own lines.]

 The bike fell back, moving to support the veterans. For objective reasons, the jump-pack unit pulled back from the centre to re-secure their home objective, leaving my neophytes and characters safe for another turn. Unsurprisingly, between aggressor firepower and various combat units, the rock drill acolytes perished. [That was expected. But with the key Wolf units having to deal with the rock drills, the characters were unwilling to advance on the rock saws unsupported. I'd lost three of my four combat units, but had picked up 27 points this turn, and kept the Wolves tied up near their own deployment zone, rather than marauding into mine.]

Turn Three : 55-46

The neophytes hop into the truck, and move forward to reinforce the northern objective (currently a tempting target for the Wolves). The command group scatter, with the magus sliding north behind the cover of the ruin, the nexos staying to hold the home objective, and the patriarch hot-footing it towards the centre objective and the veterans holding it. En route, he almost managed to super-smite the bike, but low-rolled the damage. He did, however, cut down the veterans with ease. [More trading - points-wise, not a favourable one; but worth a lot of VPs. Once again, the Wolves can remove one of my key assets, but it will hopefully divert their shrinking forces from taking objectives - by this point, he's down to two characters, his aggressors, half the jump-pack unit and a damaged bike.] 

The bike headed back across the board to fire on the truck, but failed to bracket it. The aggressors and jump-pack unit went in on the patriarch and killed him. At of the surviving Wolves (save the bike) are now holed up in the central ruins.

Turn Four : 74-49

Needing to recapture the central objective again, the neophytes disembark in that direction. The rock saw neophytes finally engage in the battle fully, moving forward and charging the librarian. Smite and firepower from the Goliath cut down two aggressors and the bike, and the neophytes charge the survivor, claiming the objective. They are intervened into by the jump-packs, and the Wolves and morale reduce the unit to just the leader - his objective secured is enough to hold the objective, though. The librarian and captain cut down most of the rock saws, but the last three reduce the psyker to a single wound before they flee. [Tactical error here. I used a crossfire marker on the librarian, to potentially stop him intervening and making me fight last, but then charged him anyway. I should have markered the captain, kept him out of it, and had far more hits against the librarian.]

The jump-packs, no longer engaged with the last neophyte, move to attack the nexos and magus, killing both. The aggressor kills the neophyte. The librarian perils (having already used a reroll) and kills himself. The captain charges and damages the truck, but it fights on - the truck is now the only model I have left, but I lead by 25 points.

Turn Five : 83-78

Because the captain positioned himself to support the jump-packs rather than take the objective, the truck is able to score points for the primary and collect a secondary. The captain then destroys it, but it explodes, wounding the captain and killing two of the three jump-packs. 

The last three Space Wolves are able to cover three objectives and seize all three secondaries, but the heroic efforts of the goliath are enough for the Cult to cling on to victory. But it was a close run thing. 

 

As always in Tempest, luck played its part. I generally drew helpful objective cards, picking up 8 by the end (compared to my opponent's 9). And even when my dice ran cold, I was in a position to ride it out - in my first turn, my WS2+ stealers rolled 13 1s out of 50 attacks, but still had enough to finish off their target. I think the decision to push up early, and at least slow the Wolf advance, paid off - having lost the secondaries game, I won the battle on the primaries, scoring 12, 11 and 14 through the middle turns (where the Wolves scored 7, 7 and 3). I controlled the two objective markers on the left of the board for the first four turns, claimed the other neutral objective twice, and forced him to pull units back into his deployment zone when a forward push might have tipped the balance of the game in favour of the Imperials.

I'm finding that my success comes with the Cult when I'm able to attack in waves. Whilst I now expect any unit I commit to disappear in the following turn (unless I can return them to the shadows), I'm learning to use them to manipulate my opponent's options - screening off parts of the board, forcing units to go whee they don't want to in order to deal with units they can't ignore, that sort of thing. And at the same time, positioning my own units to take advantage of the problems I'm creating. I wouldn't claim to be good at it yet, but I'm starting to see it happening, and that's a good start.   

Edited September 4, 2022 by Rogue

[Ulfast]

Intersting game. Seems like a good one which became very close in the end.

[Rogue]

Thanks. I think it fell into the classic 'score lots of points early on, then try to hold on to a lead while all your stuff dies' model. Usually, I don't seem to have enough points, or everything dies too fast to hold on; but in this game, it all seemed to just about work out.

Would you have done anything differently?

[Ulfast]

I don´t think I would have done so much diffrent. I though you playe d athight and good game. I struggle with similiar stuff that after turn 2-3 it´s going downfall for my troops really fast. Thats a big problem for our codex. I had one game where the last two turn I didn´t do a single wound in any phase! Reason bieng that my army was spent and only e couple of few units left.

[Rogue]

I've put together a new blog, rounding out my recent wander through the Brodcoven with a look at the Primus. If you're interested, you can find it here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/hq-primus

[brother_b]

Rogue, do you feel musculature is much more important now in the age of Armour of Contempt?

I was just re-reading your Biophagus article and it seems you were leaning that way initially. Now with so much aoc I feel that we'll need to buff our hammers to -3 to offset.

Cheers!

[Ulfast]

Yet another good post and its echo my own thoughts about trying to keep him away from combat. He can do damage but is to easy to kil, so its not worth to let him damage things. Better to let other units do that and the Primus is left to support them.

[Rogue]

22 hours ago, brother_b said:

Rogue, do you feel musculature is much more important now in the age of Armour of Contempt?

I was just re-reading your Biophagus article and it seems you were leaning that way initially. Now with so much aoc I feel that we'll need to buff our hammers to -3 to offset.

Cheers!

Well, one of the conclusions I came to was that it's better to throw bonuses at weaknesses rather than strengths. And AoC does enough to make it harder to beat a power armour save than to hit the marine wearing it in the first place.

So yes, enhanced musculature, and other ways to improve our AP are always going to be valuable into well-armoured targets.

(Of course, going with muscles means forgoing the 5+ FNP option; so we may hit harder, but have less aberrants alive to hit with...)

Edit to add:

10 aberrants with resilience (or no upgrades) would expect to kill 5.8 marines. 7 aberrants with musculature would average 5.6, and 8 would average 6.3.

So as long as you can keep 8 or more alive, taking musculature over resilience would pay off.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Rogue
Added some math-hammer

[Rogue]

Another blog is up. Hurrah!

 

This one is a bit of a wander off into the long grass of the Myriad Cults - specifically, the Synaptic Resonance creed (reroll any or all 1s and 2s when making psychic tests). It's a strong effect with limited application, given that it only affects the Patriarch and Magus; but I've always enjoyed having a significant psychic presence on the board, and this feels like a good way to dial that up to 11. 

 

It also gets pretty gnarly if you throw in the Unwilling Orb.

 

You can take a look over here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/myriad-cults-synaptic-resonance

[Ulfast]

As always, a very good post. I like that you are looking into the myriad cults. To me it seems it´s several hidden gems that can be found there. I usually, as I´m a bit lazy, play with twisted helix. But I more and more are thinking to change to use some of the myraid cults traits as several are good. This post open up my eyes to yet another one that I before did not think so much about.

[Rogue]

Yeah, Helix has been my go-to for a long time. I'm just finding myself a little disenchanted with it at the moment. It feels like a bunch of good bonuses - strength, movement, can't be wounded on 2s - but I often find that they affect the game less than I want them to. The 'can't wound on 2s' thing is great in theory, but my T4 guys are rarely being hit by S8 weapons, and you don't need S6 to shred through neophytes, so I'm rarely being wounded on 2s in the first place. And I've had very few situations where the extra inch of movement has been critical - most of the time it's a nice bonus, but not a vital one. +1 strength is good, but can be situational - it's wasted into T3, not much cop on acolyte mining weapons, and pointless if I'm shooting.

 

Helix makes for very nasty genestealers, and effective regular acolytes, but it has left me wondering if I can get more out of the Myriad Cults.

 

Also, on the Helix front, I might lose the Cult psychic power, which is a good one, but Toxin Agents does almost the same thing (except against vehicles and monsters) whilst being active on all of my units all of the time. Given that I was looking to cast Mutagenic Deviation most turns anyway, this seems like a good thing (and saves me a cast in the psychic phase, meaning I can use Synaptic Resonance to throw something else nasty at my opponent instead).

[Ulfast]

I love that you like to experiment as I´m to bad to that. Im really looking forward to more of this so I can learn to be a better player.  

[Rogue]

Thanks Ulfast - I really appreciate your encouragement.

 

A new blog is up. This time, it's a dive into Toxin Agents, which, it turns out, is okay. Not game-breakingly good, not avoid-at-all-costs bad, but okay. 

 

Anyway, you can take a look for yourself here: https://redbrotherhood.wixsite.com/cult/post/myriad-cults-toxin-agents

 

As ever, comments, questions and general chatter all welcome. 

[Ulfast]

I yet must say that I like your new blogpost. I find it very intersting of your idea to take Toxin Agents and som other traits to get all together  a good option that could be strong(er) then some of the main traits. This is waht we need to do more with the codex, try out and see if we can find sometihng that push us  alittle bit more and above our corrent status.