What should happen with the assault squad?

[Brother Casman]

Xenith was making the point that Blood Angels already have access to a hand flamer (as well as inferno pistols) and Blood Angels players aren't taking Assault squads, so adding hand flamers to all chapters probably isn't going to change anything.

[Captain Idaho]

I doubt very much such things would make them effective enough to promote their use over Vanguard anyway.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

at least one unit can get Obsec instead thrown into Troopchoice.

 

This is a good point, having them be a non-troop obsec unit would be interesting. You'd either be trying to make a board control list where everything has obsec, or you could make some of the specialized detachments have a fair amount of it. BA and RG would probably profit the most from the change, and that's fitting.  

 

I would probably give the ability to Reivers as well, because their in a similar position (and in more competitive slot). I don't think marines having a lot of obsec would be bad as long as its skewed towards troops and units like these that can't spam equipment.

[Beta galactosidase]

The main problem is that they dont have a clear task to do. Why should anyone take them if VV do EVERYTHING better. Especially for that pointcosts. They are normal MArines without Obsec - so they should be that cheap to compensate it or have an option for anything no other marine have.

So they’re filler units right now, and they don’t do anything useful. Why are any space marine units at all so bad that they are filler? This is terrible.

 

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

What’s the reason that assault squads don’t have power weapons these days? Is there any good reason at all? It’s degrading to basic marines, it makes them forgettable filler units that you only take to fill a battalion if they’re troops and not at all if they’re assault squads.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

[snip]

No errata for hand flamers as they're already in the SM codex from day one.

theyre not an option for assault marines though

Blood Angels Assault Marine Sergeants can take hand flamers - check the Pistols list of the Space Marine Codex.

but that’s not what I was talking about now was it?

I said replace the flamers with hand flamers.

3 auto hits minimum even while in combat with 2 extra chainsword attacks is a pretty big improvement over 1 auto hit minimum while in combat

 

The main problem is that they dont have a clear task to do. Why should anyone take them if VV do EVERYTHING better. Especially for that pointcosts. They are normal MArines without Obsec - so they should be that cheap to compensate it or have an option for anything no other marine have.

So they’re filler units right now, and they don’t do anything useful. Why are any space marine units at all so bad that they are filler? This is terrible.

 

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

What’s the reason that assault squads don’t have power weapons these days? Is there any good reason at all? It’s degrading to basic marines, it makes them forgettable filler units that you only take to fill a battalion if they’re troops and not at all if they’re assault squads.

they don’t get power weapons because if they did there wouldn’t be much of a difference between them and VVs

[Beta galactosidase]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The main problem is that they dont have a clear task to do. Why should anyone take them if VV do EVERYTHING better. Especially for that pointcosts. They are normal MArines without Obsec - so they should be that cheap to compensate it or have an option for anything no other marine have

So they’re filler units right now, and they don’t do anything useful. Why are any space marine units at all so bad that they are filler? This is terrible.

 

Merging doesn't really work when you have two seperate kits with different designs that are fully established as representing two different things!

What’s the reason that assault squads [lost power weapons]? Is there any good reason at all? It’s degrading to basic marines, it makes them forgettable filler units that you only take to fill a battalion if they’re troops and not at all if they’re assault squads.

they don’t get power weapons because if they did there wouldn’t be much of a difference between them and VVs

Exactly. Van vets existing means assault squads have to stay a bit bad. There were nine years after assault squads lost power weapons before Vanguard Vets appeared, and assault squads were mediocre or increasingly bad. Then Vanguard were introduced because they could fill the space left from how boing assault squads are.

 

But now there many more and newer kits and they’re both less important. Just merge the units. They need separate data slates because they’re separate kits, so the vanguard slate just says this

 

Vanguard Veterans

Unit size 0

One vanguard veteran may replace one model in an assault squad. All the models in an an assault squad may be vanguard veterans, or any other number of models.

[then equipment options]

 

Merge them.

 

I’m also not worried about the background. All marine are supposed to be really elite, even the few of them who are young. Van vets indicate that assault squads aren’t, and that’s dumb. Van vets are really late to the game, they’re from 2008. The day that flying Blade guard come out, Van Vets will want to squeeze in with the assault squad to stay useful.

 

Assault squads mostly exist as a trap purchase for players who don’t know any better, or dead weight and spare parts in the various start collecting or army boxes they’ve been in.

[Captain Idaho]

The day flying Bladeguard come out we'll have bigger problems than Vanguard Veterans... Bladeguard will cease to be useful too.

 

Anyway, Assault Marines need to be considered carefully. I'm of the opinion they should move away from Vanguard somewhat in scope so I don't want to see them just armed with power weapons and be done with them. That'll actually make things worse for either of the units.

 

Troops works for me. I'd probably take 10 if that was the case as I'd have a cheap(ish) Troops choice to get up the table quickly and support my attacking elements and that includes Terminators.

 

He way 40K has gone towards objectives to win, pure killhammer of previous times where folk would take just the best killy-troops are gone. Now I'd much rather have some supporting Troops for holding objectives but also putting down fire, as well as Troops I can get up the board without spending points on expensive transports.

 

I really think that's all they need.

[Brother Casman]

[snip]

3 auto hits minimum even while in combat with 2 extra chainsword attacks is a pretty big improvement over 1 auto hit minimum while in combat

[snip]

I would suggest that next time, you lead with this.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The day flying Bladeguard come out we'll have bigger problems than Vanguard Veterans... Bladeguard will cease to be useful too.

 

Anyway, Assault Marines need to be considered carefully. I'm of the opinion they should move away from Vanguard somewhat in scope so I don't want to see them just armed with power weapons and be done with them. That'll actually make things worse for either of the units.

 

Troops works for me. I'd probably take 10 if that was the case as I'd have a cheap(ish) Troops choice to get up the table quickly and support my attacking elements and that includes Terminators.

 

He way 40K has gone towards objectives to win, pure killhammer of previous times where folk would take just the best killy-troops are gone. Now I'd much rather have some supporting Troops for holding objectives but also putting down fire, as well as Troops I can get up the board without spending points on expensive transports.

 

I really think that's all they need.

 

I don't think bladeguard jump infantry are coming any time soon. I really think they're supposed to be "assault terminators" of the primaris line. I suspect they'd make an elite CC bike unit next because it wouldn't be competing with very much in the firstborn line, and we already have a chaplain on bike.

 

Regardless, becoming a troop or just having obsec are the best fixes suggested so far IMO.  

Edited September 23, 2021 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Captain Idaho]

I dunno, I think Bikes are pretty powerful right now. They have Chainswords, movement 14" and Twin Bolters with plenty of special weapons. They're pretty choppy already.

 

You're probably right though. That's likely GW's next move.

[Jings]

I've always liked the idea of giving them (and Devs) ObSec. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I dunno, I think Bikes are pretty powerful right now. They have Chainswords, movement 14" and Twin Bolters with plenty of special weapons. They're pretty choppy already.

 

You're probably right though. That's likely GW's next move.

 

The bikes are pretty good, but they're more of a jack of all trades unit than CC unit. 7 assault marines will actually put out more attacks than 3 outriders in CC for less points. Its just outriders are more flexible because they have the bolt rifles so you can still get something from them if they're sitting on an objective. If MM wasn't so good I think we'd see more of them, but its pretty hard to recommend them over attack bikes.

 

I've always liked the idea of giving them (and Devs) ObSec. 

 

Yeah I think Obsec is an ability that they can hand out a bit more. 

[Captain Idaho]

I can't agree with that, because the bolt weapons on Outridwrs are not better than the firepower of more twin bolters and plasma guns and other specials.

 

But that's a different subject eh.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

[snip]

3 auto hits minimum even while in combat with 2 extra chainsword attacks is a pretty big improvement over 1 auto hit minimum while in combat

[snip]

I would suggest that next time, you lead with this.

I thought that was obviously what I was getting at.

Minimum 3 hits or maximum 18 hits and an average of roughly 9 hits during shooting phase when in melee, and those 2 extra chainsword attacks could make a big difference.

 

Would it be too much for an entire squad to be able to take hand flamers?

Edited September 23, 2021 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I can't agree with that, because the bolt weapons on Outridwrs are not better than the firepower of more twin bolters and plasma guns and other specials.

 

But that's a different subject eh.

 

I left out "CC" elite bike squad in my post about not expecting jump blade guard. So I answered your other post wrong, I don't think outriders are better than bikes squads either. I mainly compared outriders to assault marines because they're the choppiest vanilla bikes, and they get their value from being good at taking objectives. So giving assault marines obsec would give them a good direct way of having a similar role while not be VV choppy.

 

 

 

[snip]

3 auto hits minimum even while in combat with 2 extra chainsword attacks is a pretty big improvement over 1 auto hit minimum while in combat

[snip]

I would suggest that next time, you lead with this.

I thought that was obviously what I was getting at.

Minimum 3 hits or maximum 18 hits and an average of roughly 9 hits during shooting phase when in melee, and those 2 extra chainsword attacks could make a big difference.

 

Would it be too much for an entire squad to be able to take hand flamers?

 

 

Seraphim can have 2 hand flamers on 2 models (so 4 total at str 4). From experience they can do a fair amount of work. I'd be tempted say that every guy would be too much but maybe for every 5 models 2 can take them. That said ours should be str 4 as well SoB pay the same amount of points as marines to be able to take them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I can't agree with that, because the bolt weapons on Outridwrs are not better than the firepower of more twin bolters and plasma guns and other specials.

 

But that's a different subject eh.

I left out "CC" elite bike squad in my post about not expecting jump blade guard. So I answered your other post wrong, I don't think outriders are better than bikes squads either. I mainly compared outriders to assault marines because they're the choppiest vanilla bikes, and they get their value from being good at taking objectives. So giving assault marines obsec would give them a good direct way of having a similar role while not be VV choppy.

 

 

[snip]

3 auto hits minimum even while in combat with 2 extra chainsword attacks is a pretty big improvement over 1 auto hit minimum while in combat

[snip]

I would suggest that next time, you lead with this.

I thought that was obviously what I was getting at.

Minimum 3 hits or maximum 18 hits and an average of roughly 9 hits during shooting phase when in melee, and those 2 extra chainsword attacks could make a big difference.

 

Would it be too much for an entire squad to be able to take hand flamers?

Seraphim can have 2 hand flamers on 2 models (so 4 total at str 4). From experience they can do a fair amount of work. I'd be tempted say that every guy would be too much but maybe for every 5 models 2 can take them. That said ours should be str 4 as well SoB pay the same amount of points as marines to be able to take them.

im not much worried about that 1 S but it definitely can make a difference.

[Helias_Tancred]

They are a classic unit that has just been left behind as the codex has grown and evolved. VanVets pack much more punch in melee (as do Death Company). They make adequate special weapon caddies but Inceptors, Attack bikes etc can also bring melta and plasma to bear rapidly and are generally shootier and tougher.

 

For +1 point Vanguard Veterans bring 25% more attacks and more devastating melee weapon options. If Assault squads went down to about 15-16 points, they would have a role as cheap Objective grabbers and chaff clearers. As it stands, I can't think why you would ever not pay +1 point for VanVets.

 

^ This guy! ... just lower their points and they will be fine for what they do well.

... or what they're most useful for.

[Djangomatic82]

I don't think Assault marines need more rules to bring them closer to Vanguard Veterans. They aren't meant to tackle the same kinds of target or play the same role in our armies.

VV's have all the equipment options they do so they can be kitted out to tackle specific targets. You don't want to be throwing your VV's at chaff or under strength units that were moved to try and secure a side objective. they are meant to take your opponents big bad units head on and kill them, when properly equipped.

Assault marines are the ones that are meant to be taking on lower quality units, like 8ppm skitarri, guardsmen, low number of Boyz,  kabalites, etc... ASM are the cheap option we use against our opponents cheap options, so that we don't lose the war of attrition quite so badly as we would if our VV's, SG, TWC or such were forced to take on hoards of tiny MSU squads of cheap models.

But that brings me to the problem with ASM. They aren't cheap enough. I don't think 16ppm would be enough of a drop, but 13ppm base, 15ppm with jump pack, that just might be a reeeel tasty meatball. 75ppm for a jump pack, non obsec melee unit would have its uses.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't think Assault marines need more rules to bring them closer to Vanguard Veterans. They aren't meant to tackle the same kinds of target or play the same role in our armies.

VV's have all the equipment options they do so they can be kitted out to tackle specific targets. You don't want to be throwing your VV's at chaff or under strength units that were moved to try and secure a side objective. they are meant to take your opponents big bad units head on and kill them, when properly equipped.

Assault marines are the ones that are meant to be taking on lower quality units, like 8ppm skitarri, guardsmen, low number of Boyz, kabalites, etc... ASM are the cheap option we use against our opponents cheap options, so that we don't lose the war of attrition quite so badly as we would if our VV's, SG, TWC or such were forced to take on hoards of tiny MSU squads of cheap models.

But that brings me to the problem with ASM. They aren't cheap enough. I don't think 16ppm would be enough of a drop, but 13ppm base, 15ppm with jump pack, that just might be a reeeel tasty meatball. 75ppm for a jump pack, non obsec melee unit would have its uses.

before VVs however that’s not what their role was though

[Djangomatic82]

 

I don't think Assault marines need more rules to bring them closer to Vanguard Veterans. They aren't meant to tackle the same kinds of target or play the same role in our armies.

VV's have all the equipment options they do so they can be kitted out to tackle specific targets. You don't want to be throwing your VV's at chaff or under strength units that were moved to try and secure a side objective. they are meant to take your opponents big bad units head on and kill them, when properly equipped.

Assault marines are the ones that are meant to be taking on lower quality units, like 8ppm skitarri, guardsmen, low number of Boyz, kabalites, etc... ASM are the cheap option we use against our opponents cheap options, so that we don't lose the war of attrition quite so badly as we would if our VV's, SG, TWC or such were forced to take on hoards of tiny MSU squads of cheap models.

But that brings me to the problem with ASM. They aren't cheap enough. I don't think 16ppm would be enough of a drop, but 13ppm base, 15ppm with jump pack, that just might be a reeeel tasty meatball. 75ppm for a jump pack, non obsec melee unit would have its uses.

before VVs however that’s not what their role was though

 

Okay, i realize that, but rolling ASM and VV's together doesn't seem to be a good idea either. they did that with Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators and that data sheet is pretty uninspired.

Letting ASM be a cheap melee unit to trade with cheap chaff  is a niche SM dont have right now and need to combat attrition via other factions cheap hoard  chaff.

[Beta galactosidase]

That sounds like we are squeezing in one assault squad, like you said to trade with cheap chaff. Maybe one, if we don’t go a different route for hordes. That’s not really space marines. It’s not enough.

 

You’re kind of getting me with being 1. cheap enough to include and 2. strong relative to their points even without obsec.

 

A chapter has four times as many assault squads as vanguard veteran ones. If there are vanguard in an army then it should be standard to have at least double that in actual assault squads. Counting bikes and speeders that still wouldn’t get to 4x, but it would be better.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So general consensus is if they got OBSEC they’d be just fine regardless of slot they fill?

[Captain Idaho]

Well I'd find them better but still wouldn't use them.

 

Personally I need them to be Troops or I'll nevuer do take them.

[Karhedron]

So general consensus is if they got OBSEC they’d be just fine regardless of slot they fill?

At the moment they are not worth their points so they need to be either cheaper or better. Giving them ObjSec is one way to make them better that does not make them overlap with VanVets.

 

Personally I would rather just see them costed correctly.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

So general consensus is if they got OBSEC they’d be just fine regardless of slot they fill?

At the moment they are not worth their points so they need to be either cheaper or better. Giving them ObjSec is one way to make them better that does not make them overlap with VanVets.

 

Personally I would rather just see them costed correctly.

i don’t see points as a valid form of buffing.

Most bad units need to be dropped a lot of points to become attractive, like a ridiculous amount of points.