What should happen with the assault squad?

[Medjugorje]

 

So general consensus is if they got OBSEC they’d be just fine regardless of slot they fill?

At the moment they are not worth their points so they need to be either cheaper or better. Giving them ObjSec is one way to make them better that does not make them overlap with VanVets.

 

Personally I would rather just see them costed correctly.

 

15 points each model

[TheNewman]

 

 

 

I don't think Assault marines need more rules to bring them closer to Vanguard Veterans. They aren't meant to tackle the same kinds of target or play the same role in our armies.

VV's have all the equipment options they do so they can be kitted out to tackle specific targets. You don't want to be throwing your VV's at chaff or under strength units that were moved to try and secure a side objective. they are meant to take your opponents big bad units head on and kill them, when properly equipped.

Assault marines are the ones that are meant to be taking on lower quality units, like 8ppm skitarri, guardsmen, low number of Boyz, kabalites, etc... ASM are the cheap option we use against our opponents cheap options, so that we don't lose the war of attrition quite so badly as we would if our VV's, SG, TWC or such were forced to take on hoards of tiny MSU squads of cheap models.

But that brings me to the problem with ASM. They aren't cheap enough. I don't think 16ppm would be enough of a drop, but 13ppm base, 15ppm with jump pack, that just might be a reeeel tasty meatball. 75ppm for a jump pack, non obsec melee unit would have its uses.

before VVs however that’s not what their role was though

Okay, i realize that, but rolling ASM and VV's together doesn't seem to be a good idea either. they did that with Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators and that data sheet is pretty uninspired.

Letting ASM be a cheap melee unit to trade with cheap chaff is a niche SM dont have right now and need to combat attrition via other factions cheap hoard chaff.

That's a couple of good points. I think I need to change my vote on the matter.

[Karhedron]

i don’t see points as a valid form of buffing.

Most bad units need to be dropped a lot of points to become attractive, like a ridiculous amount of points.

I can see it working either way. The reason I not so keen on buffing ASM specifically is that they then risk overlapping with VanVets which does nothing to address the redundancy in the codex.

 

Djangomatic82 suggested dropping them to 15ppm with Jump Packs and that seems about right to me. At 75 points base for a squad, you have a unit that specialises in mobile chaff clearance and harassment.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

i don’t see points as a valid form of buffing.

Most bad units need to be dropped a lot of points to become attractive, like a ridiculous amount of points.

I can see it working either way. The reason I not so keen on buffing ASM specifically is that they then risk overlapping with VanVets which does nothing to address the redundancy in the codex.

 

Djangomatic82 suggested dropping them to 15ppm with Jump Packs and that seems about right to me. At 75 points base for a squad, you have a unit that specialises in mobile chaff clearance and harassment.

there’s so much redundancy in the codex I don’t think it even matters at this point lol.

[Djangomatic82]

 

 

i don’t see points as a valid form of buffing.

Most bad units need to be dropped a lot of points to become attractive, like a ridiculous amount of points.

I can see it working either way. The reason I not so keen on buffing ASM specifically is that they then risk overlapping with VanVets which does nothing to address the redundancy in the codex.

 

Djangomatic82 suggested dropping them to 15ppm with Jump Packs and that seems about right to me. At 75 points base for a squad, you have a unit that specialises in mobile chaff clearance and harassment.

there’s so much redundancy in the codex I don’t think it even matters at this point lol.

 

Eh, there's redundancy, but its mostly bad, or just sloppy.

And honestly, if I'm speaking from a BA perspective, there really isnt, or at least i'm not seeing it, any other unit in the codex's that fill a jump pack assault marines role as i talked about above.

The reason I want ASM to be at least decently priced is because I already fill all 6 slots in my Vanguard detachment, as well as not wanting to send SG, VV's or DC at chaff when i need them to be dealing with real issues.

But I want a unit that plays the same way, can take advantage of the same bonus's, strats and abilities as the SG,VV;s and DC. Mainly to minimize the book keeping and streamline the battle plan. Instead of having to include buffs for shooting, or less melee centric units, eating up points and body budget, i'd rather just have more of the same, just at a lower points cost and a different melee role in mind.

Reivers don't fill that role. Assault Intercessors don't fill that role. Scouts don't fill that role. Blade guard Veterans don't fill that role. Bike squads, Outriders and Scout Bikes dont fill that roll.

Incursors and Eliminators come pretty dang close to filling that role or something similar. their scout deploy is excellent, guerilla tactics are nice when CP is available, but the 6" move is a let down for every turn after 1.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can run double detachment… it’s not like it’s a big deal. ASM are great for ROD, line breaker and holding backline objectives.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

i don’t see points as a valid form of buffing.

Most bad units need to be dropped a lot of points to become attractive, like a ridiculous amount of points.

I can see it working either way. The reason I not so keen on buffing ASM specifically is that they then risk overlapping with VanVets which does nothing to address the redundancy in the codex.

 

Djangomatic82 suggested dropping them to 15ppm with Jump Packs and that seems about right to me. At 75 points base for a squad, you have a unit that specialises in mobile chaff clearance and harassment.

there’s so much redundancy in the codex I don’t think it even matters at this point lol.

Eh, there's redundancy, but its mostly bad, or just sloppy.

And honestly, if I'm speaking from a BA perspective, there really isnt, or at least i'm not seeing it, any other unit in the codex's that fill a jump pack assault marines role as i talked about above.

The reason I want ASM to be at least decently priced is because I already fill all 6 slots in my Vanguard detachment, as well as not wanting to send SG, VV's or DC at chaff when i need them to be dealing with real issues.

But I want a unit that plays the same way, can take advantage of the same bonus's, strats and abilities as the SG,VV;s and DC. Mainly to minimize the book keeping and streamline the battle plan. Instead of having to include buffs for shooting, or less melee centric units, eating up points and body budget, i'd rather just have more of the same, just at a lower points cost and a different melee role in mind.

Reivers don't fill that role. Assault Intercessors don't fill that role. Scouts don't fill that role. Blade guard Veterans don't fill that role. Bike squads, Outriders and Scout Bikes dont fill that roll.

Incursors and Eliminators come pretty dang close to filling that role or something similar. their scout deploy is excellent, guerilla tactics are nice when CP is available, but the 6" move is a let down for every turn after 1.

id just like to ASMs as solid options of melee jump infantry for smaller PL or pointed games. 16ppm a sarge that can take all marine melee weapons and 2 power swords or axes I think would fit that bill without stepping on the toes of VV too much in larger games

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A five man squad with jump packs and two flamers is 120 points. That’s seem reasonable to me. I doubt they’ll ever get turned into a troop.

[Karhedron]

A five man squad with jump packs and two flamers is 120 points. That’s seem reasonable to me. I doubt they’ll ever get turned into a troop.

To me it feels distinctly overpriced. For the same points you can get an Inceptor squad who have similar mobility and superior chaff-clearing potential and are T5.

[Beta galactosidase]

 

A five man squad with jump packs and two flamers is 120 points. That’s seem reasonable to me. I doubt they’ll ever get turned into a troop.

To me it feels distinctly overpriced. For the same points you can get an Inceptor squad who have similar mobility and superior chaff-clearing potential and are T5.

And two more wounds on the squad. And inceptors aren’t so good that they’re in every list. 120 points for the flamer assault squad is very underpowered.

 

Demi company is supposedly the core of any marine army. An assault squad should be so good that they’re an auto-take, and compete first with other forms of assault squad eg inceptors or bikes. Being afterthoughts to VVs or sanguinary guard is the wrong way around.

[Djangomatic82]

Blah, so i kinda got tired of just making posts here and wrote an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com just stating that 18ppm ASM are disappointing. I didn't include suggestions or anything, just that its not a great game play experience using them as they are now.

[crazyterran]

Could give Assault Marines the option to be troops and take Bolters and more special weapons. Be a fast moving tactical squad that doesn’t need a Rhino or RB to get around.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Could give Assault Marines the option to be troops and take Bolters and more special weapons. Be a fast moving tactical squad that doesn’t need a Rhino or RB to get around.

ya I think access to 2 combi weapons might help. You can still have a pair of flamers while having some sort of actual range.

[tychobi]

I vote retirement. The bloat is real and noob traps are bad for the game. They are mostly running around with 3d printed claws, shields, and a promotion already in my experience.

[L30n1d4s]

I think they need some kind of mobility bonus to distinguish them.... perhaps a "built in" +2" to their Advance/Charge.

 

This would allow them to be a good skirmishing unit, still not as good as Vanguard Vets at actually melee, but able to reliably (and without outside support) get into Objectives, charge out of DS, etc.

 

I think this would give them a distinct role within a SM army and not make them as basically useless as they currently are in competitive games.

[Charlo]

First turn deep strike with a bonus to charge?

[Medjugorje]

or a stratagem which let them deepstrike closer then 9".  So they can perform actions or get a save charge.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I actually liked the idea of Assault & Devastator Squads having ObSec, even if it's a "once per game, lasts one turn" ability you can switch on at will.  Or maybe they count as ObSec when contesting an objective with an enemy unit that is also Obsec, something like that to increase utility outside of combat.  Trying to make them more lethal to compete with Vanguard Vets just infringes on the role of the Vanguard, who -- as veterans -- should be more lethal than Assault Marines.

[Medjugorje]

at the moment you have to pay a tax for them. The slot is not attractive. Troop choices dont cost CP usually because you have to take them and this includes a powerful special rule. Devastor marines and assault squads - should get obsec.

 

At least it should be possible to make some of them a troop choice. Blood Angels for example should have them in troop slot ( a guarantee that they wont be spammed could be a restriction of 1 per Captain with a jump pack) 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

at the moment you have to pay a tax for them. The slot is not attractive. Troop choices dont cost CP usually because you have to take them and this includes a powerful special rule. Devastor marines and assault squads - should get obsec.

 

At least it should be possible to make some of them a troop choice. Blood Angels for example should have them in troop slot ( a guarantee that they wont be spammed could be a restriction of 1 per Captain with a jump pack)

even if they were spammed they’re not strong enough to be OP if spammed.

[Helias_Tancred]

They don't need a special new role, they are what they are. .... In 9th with the focus on speed and holding objectives they are fine. If anything lower their points a little bit to give them a unique "edge" ... and if that still doesn't wet your appetite then play Blood Angels because we get a couple additional options for equipping our assault marines ;)

[Cryptshadow]

i just think once they release primaris jet packs that u can make the current assault intercessors able to equip jet packs, because atm they aren't cheap, and its stupid hard to get into battle to do its thing in this edition jet packs increasing their movement would be great

[Medjugorje]

 

at the moment you have to pay a tax for them. The slot is not attractive. Troop choices dont cost CP usually because you have to take them and this includes a powerful special rule. Devastor marines and assault squads - should get obsec.

 

At least it should be possible to make some of them a troop choice. Blood Angels for example should have them in troop slot ( a guarantee that they wont be spammed could be a restriction of 1 per Captain with a jump pack)

even if they were spammed they’re not strong enough to be OP if spammed.

 

but why should anyone take other troopchoices if ther is a similar unit in statlines which have 12" movment and cost the same points. And have Chainswords instead. It would be spammed. I would always take them 3x. instead of intercessors for same price.

[Medjugorje]

i just think once they release primaris jet packs that u can make the current assault intercessors able to equip jet packs, because atm they aren't cheap, and its stupid hard to get into battle to do its thing in this edition jet packs increasing their movement would be great

especiallly when you think about shrike has 14" movment as aussault intercessor

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

at the moment you have to pay a tax for them. The slot is not attractive. Troop choices dont cost CP usually because you have to take them and this includes a powerful special rule. Devastor marines and assault squads - should get obsec.

 

At least it should be possible to make some of them a troop choice. Blood Angels for example should have them in troop slot ( a guarantee that they wont be spammed could be a restriction of 1 per Captain with a jump pack)

even if they were spammed they’re not strong enough to be OP if spammed.

but why should anyone take other troopchoices if ther is a similar unit in statlines which have 12" movment and cost the same points. And have Chainswords instead. It would be spammed. I would always take them 3x. instead of intercessors for same price.

why? Because intercessor are still better in basically every way except for movement, and tactical marines provide more flexibility still.