GW's business model - the future and 3D printing

[Arkhanist]

That is a fair point about tournaments, especially since this incident (a guy won with minimum effort printed models and carboard bases, for a tourney with no paint/proxy model limits). And GW has banned all 3d printed parts now, as well as the long standing ban on 3rd party models. So certainly tourneys will remain a GW-only space for a good while yet, not least due to the competitive nature of the attendees. Whether we'll see non-GW tourneys start to split off and allow more if/when it becomes a much bigger part of the hobby space is unknowable.

 

I don't play tourneys (I'm a slooooow painter, so I'm so far behind the meta it's not funny!), but I can see those that do would eye 3d printed with suspicion, even minimal custom parts. For conversion-minded hobbyists though, it's a huge boon; shapeways has made so many projects possible - and printing yourself saves a ton on shapeways. (main reason I bought one, in fact!)

techsoldaten's also got a point about sourcing from Asia getting more expensive; resin isn't *that* complex, so could be made in the UK, US or Germany (all of which have a robust chemicals industry), and eco-resins from crop oil (ala anycubic's soybean oil based one) will no doubt grow more popular as dino-oil gets more expensive. Sourcing printers on the other hand, given the sheer dominance of Asia in the electronics industry, may be more of an issue; demand already outstrips supply for the most desired brand new models. But that applies to a lot more products than just 3d printers, so who the hell knows what will happen there in the next decade.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Arkhanist

[Doghouse]

But not everyone does tournaments, I have friends I game with and we just have a laugh. There is far more to the hobby than officially sanctioned rules and regulations, some don't game at all. Besides that GW doesn't allow printed parts unless you can prove you made them yourself and even then it's down to the organiser. 

 

3D printing is becoming another avenue of expression of the hobby of making miniatures, same way people do fan art or animations and it's only a no no if people are printing them and selling them or selling STLs. GW will decide who they think can or can't make models that will be ultimately decided in court.

 

Do I think it will effect GW in the short term? Not really, but long term I have no idea if it will impact them or not beyond creating competition as we're seeing far more unique miniature lines emerging thanks to the tech making it so much easier.

 

As for how hard it is, I have next to no computer skills and even I can make clean professional looking miniatures now just through a short term of trial and error and watching lots of Youtube videos.

[Domhnall]

Slightly off topic, but I think still pertinent to the conversation. I'll point out here, I'm not against the idea of 3D printing at gaming club levels, just this is a concern that I would have regarding availibility of high value units.

 

One of the other issues with 3rd party printed models (thought of this from that article Arkanist linked) being used in tournaments, is that as soon as a unit becomes overpowered, you'll quickly have most armies centred around this unit, and not just at the tournament level, but at local gaming stores as well. 

Yes this has always been an issue, but was mostly restricted to the people who could throw money at their army. Not so much if 20 Imperial Knights can be had for the price of a couple squads of marines. You'd find that anybody with access to a printer can knock out an overpowered army pretty quickly and easily, meaning everybody else would either have to do the same thing, or stop playing against said army.

I've heard of that happen at a local group years ago before 3D printing and a different wargame, as one guy had more money than sense and had pretty much everything you could possibly want, so beat everybody far more often than not. Didn't help the guy was a complete tool, which I think was the main reason, as he really didn't like to lose (he gave accusation of cheating because that was the only reason he could be beat apparently)

 

Not sure how other people feel about playing with their army, but I would rather play with what I wanted to build/play with, rather than what I'm forced to play with to win. 

 

... I went down a rabbit hole here of 'what ifs...', but I've deleted it, as it's not constructive to the topic. 

 

 

I remember when I did play back in 2nd, it was me and my friend. I'd play blood angels or tyranids, he'd play chaos. I very rarely won, because even though I had a bigger and more varied army, he had Abaddon, Khârn, and Fabius Bile. I could wipe the table clear of his units, but they would generally be the last ones standing. One time I went through a 10 strong unit of Genestealers and still didn't bring Khârn down. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Domhnall

[Arkhanist]

Eh, That Guy has existed as long as we've been rolling dice. As you say, someone can be a jerk with oodles of cash, or now a 3d printer. Least it should be better looking than That Guy that turns up with the green army guys and tonka toys as proxies for his Guard! At least other people will have the option to cheaply print off the thing that beats that other broken meta thing without needing tons of cash, should they choose.

 

Better option is to stop playing against That Guy though, regardless of why he's a tool specifically. In the clubs I've been part of, ostracising him (and warning novices) as long as he acts as a bad sportsman either forced (some) change in behaviour, or more commonly he just stopped coming. If someone is an unredeemable tool in one aspect, they are pretty invariably a tool in multiple, and often cheaters. Life's too short to waste playing them.

[Marshal Rohr]

That is a fair point about tournaments, especially since this incident (a guy won with minimum effort printed models and carboard bases, for a tourney with no paint/proxy model limits). And GW has banned all 3d printed parts now, as well as the long standing ban on 3rd party models. So certainly tourneys will remain a GW-only space for a good while yet, not least due to the competitive nature of the attendees. Whether we'll see non-GW tourneys start to split off and allow more if/when it becomes a much bigger part of the hobby space is unknowable.

 

I don't play tourneys (I'm a slooooow painter, so I'm so far behind the meta it's not funny!), but I can see those that do would eye 3d printed with suspicion, even minimal custom parts. For conversion-minded hobbyists though, it's a huge boon; shapeways has made so many projects possible - and printing yourself saves a ton on shapeways. (main reason I bought one, in fact!)

 

techsoldaten's also got a point about sourcing from Asia getting more expensive; resin isn't *that* complex, so could be made in the UK, US or Germany (all of which have a robust chemicals industry), and eco-resins from crop oil (ala anycubic's soybean oil based one) will no doubt grow more popular as dino-oil gets more expensive. Sourcing printers on the other hand, given the sheer dominance of Asia in the electronics industry, may be more of an issue; demand already outstrips supply for the most desired brand new models. But that applies to a lot more products than just 3d printers, so who the hell knows what will happen there in the next decade.

I get my resin from Smooth On which comes outta Texas. It doesn’t break the bank but it has increased in price. That’s traditional nerd resin and silicone though, not sure if it can be used with 3D printing. Edited October 11, 2021 by Marshal Rohr

[Arkhanist]

 

That is a fair point about tournaments, especially since this incident (a guy won with minimum effort printed models and carboard bases, for a tourney with no paint/proxy model limits). And GW has banned all 3d printed parts now, as well as the long standing ban on 3rd party models. So certainly tourneys will remain a GW-only space for a good while yet, not least due to the competitive nature of the attendees. Whether we'll see non-GW tourneys start to split off and allow more if/when it becomes a much bigger part of the hobby space is unknowable.

 

I don't play tourneys (I'm a slooooow painter, so I'm so far behind the meta it's not funny!), but I can see those that do would eye 3d printed with suspicion, even minimal custom parts. For conversion-minded hobbyists though, it's a huge boon; shapeways has made so many projects possible - and printing yourself saves a ton on shapeways. (main reason I bought one, in fact!)

 

techsoldaten's also got a point about sourcing from Asia getting more expensive; resin isn't *that* complex, so could be made in the UK, US or Germany (all of which have a robust chemicals industry), and eco-resins from crop oil (ala anycubic's soybean oil based one) will no doubt grow more popular as dino-oil gets more expensive. Sourcing printers on the other hand, given the sheer dominance of Asia in the electronics industry, may be more of an issue; demand already outstrips supply for the most desired brand new models. But that applies to a lot more products than just 3d printers, so who the hell knows what will happen there in the next decade.

I get my resin from Smooth On which comes outta Texas. It doesn’t break the bank but it has increased in price. That’s traditional nerd resin and silicone though, not sure if it can be used with 3D printing.

 

 

3d resin printing uses UV-cured resin, usually around the 350-410nm wavelength. You can cast with it (I believe there's a bit of a cottage industry using it for jewellery and art trinkets) with any UV light source, such as a UV torch. A transparent mould and/or transparent resin helps with that! The stuff intended for 3d printing also needs a suitable viscosity, as the printing is done by lots of very fine layers (50nm or less) and you need fresh resin to flow back in when the build plate moves.

 

As always, you can get the cheap and cheerful stuff at £20ish a litre, more robust "abs-like" for a little more, and more speciality engineering resins that can literally survive a hammer for twice that (but may not show as much super-fine detail). The cheap resins are quite strong in some ways, but thin parts like aerials, thin sword blades etc can be prone to being a little brittle, especially if over-cured in comparison. Not that very thin styrene is super robust either!

 

One option is to mix a little (15, 20%) of an more specialist resin like siraya tenacious into the cheap stuff; that's a flex-rubber-style UV resin. Between the two, the tensile strength of the normal resin and the bit of flex makes models that are more robust to drops/transport than styrene (e.g. GW plastic), as fine detail as your printer can do, without massive expense.

 

Yes, I custom mix my UV resin. (strokes virtual goatee, puffs imaginary vape pen)

Edited October 11, 2021 by Arkhanist

[AenarIT]

On the topic of using unofficial models and WYSIWYG: any time you convert a model, 3D print a model or buy a third party resin model you are using a different model than the official plastic one. That said, you can respect the correct proportions, base size and WYSIWYG in all of those cases anyway. 
Otherwise all those tournaments that routinely accept conversions and third party models would never accept them, but they do. Basically all of them do that, bar the official GW ones (but there are tales of unpainted models, 3D printed models and conversions being accepted there despite the rulepacks saying otherwise). 

 

The point of using alternative models is just a matter of personal preference: style, material, convenience, price, ...

All reasons good enough for a hobbyist to prefer them over official plastic. 

Using alternative models does not mean you are not playing warhammer. For example, all the guys with old plastic armies, third party armies or 3D printed ones that are playing The Ninth Age (basically community-driven unofficial Warhammer Fantasy Battles) are still playing warhammer in their mind. Not even a GW ruleset is a requirement for them, let alone GW miniatures. But that is a discussion for another topic. 

On the topic of the future of 3D printing and GW business model: as long as plastic miniatures are the preferred choice of a large enough customer base, GW will remain in business and print money. Again, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Once the alternatives are good looking enough, convenient enough or cheap enough more and more people will try them and maybe convert to the new ways of hobbying.

Are we there yet? Imho, yes for those hobbyists dedicated and curious enough to learn how to use a printer, maybe not for the more casual ones. But the way is clear, at least to me.

Whether this will happen in 1-2-5-10 years I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the 3D printing phenomenon has plenty of way to go. 

Mind you: I have a small printer and I love it, but I still buy official models from time to time. It's not black and white.

[The Neverborn]

After seeing Arkhanist's print i'm sold.

 

Are GW going to see their sales plummet overnight, well no that's absolutely not going to happen.

 

If Arkhanist was at my club would I be dropping him a few bucks to print some mini's off for me... yes.

 

Will there be some people that will pay x2, x5, x10 x20 times the cost so they can use the GW official ones for whatever reason. Yes.

 

I'm not completely sold in the idea that the price of the raw materials will go through the roof. There just seems to be a limit to what can be 3D printed domestically. 

 

What I would expect is somewhat like their non-model offerings e.g. paints, brushes, undercoats. As players "progress" through the hobby (some people)  will move away from the official models. 

[Domhnall]

After seeing Arkhanist's print i'm sold.

 

Are GW going to see their sales plummet overnight, well no that's absolutely not going to happen.

 

If Arkhanist was at my club would I be dropping him a few bucks to print some mini's off for me... yes.

 

Will there be some people that will pay x2, x5, x10 x20 times the cost so they can use the GW official ones for whatever reason. Yes.

 

I'm not completely sold in the idea that the price of the raw materials will go through the roof. There just seems to be a limit to what can be 3D printed domestically. 

 

What I would expect is somewhat like their non-model offerings e.g. paints, brushes, undercoats. As players "progress" through the hobby (some people)  will move away from the official models. 

 

Oh come on now. x10 is my limit. Any more than that, and they are just taking the proverbial 

 

Little known lore fact: Erebus introduced Horus to 3D printing on Davin, who then went on to show it to his brothers. Half were open to the idea and thought it was cool, but the other half were uncomfortable with the new technology, and went to tell dad on them. 

Daddy forbad these new models in their games, so they left and created their own gaming group at the Eye o' Terror pub down the road. 

Still better than the other two who shall not be named, who found girlfriends and grew up 

[Doghouse]

STC are complex 3D printers, STL files were even shared electronically between Forge worlds. 

 

All hail Rick Priestly the great Prophet!

[Wulf Vengis]

Ok, I was working out a scenario where GW dips a toe into 3d printing with a specially announced new character model made to order. They only print it for orders, not in physical stores etc. When I realized that no matter how you slice it 3d printing is not affordable for GW.

The number of orders for a model, bit, upgrade etc. would never balance with the time required. For a company as large add GW who sells a million boxes day one pre-order and back orders 10 million more on that same day, 3d printing could never be supported in reasonable manner. Imagine the number of printers they would need just to satisfy the B&Cs back need for bits or OOP models. Is impossible, flat out.

What isn't impossible or improbable is that the cost of the individual printing their own bits etc. becomes so accessible that GW is eventually forced to sell official 3d print files of their kind. Let's say they call these things .STC files and the file type can only be read by their own proprietary 3d print/design program (similar to the current 40k app). This program/app is Windows/Mac/Android/i Device compatible which allows you to purchase certain models/bits/etc for your own home printing. Maybe some of these files come and go from the store individually and you get a bundle pack at the end of the year for a reduced fee, maybe not. But you now have a catalogue of everything you might need or want for your collection. Who knows maybe with a 59.99$usd yearly fee. you get the catalogue plus exclusive "special" prints. And, just like any digital store currently if they pull something from the store it's gone forever if you didn't get it while you could, at least until they re-release it.

 

TLDR: 3d printing will never be accessible for GW via weight of orders. But GW selling digital rights to print your own models/bits/etc. will become a market to valuable for them to ignore.

[AenarIT]

I have noticed that some Forge World kits are resin casts of 3D printed masters, where layer lines are still visible. The Custodes Sagittarum upgrade kit is an example: look at the arms (around the elbows) and you'll see the 3D printed layer lines. 
It's likely that they have been using industrial grade printers for that (Formlabs Form 2 or Form 3 maybe?), but retail ones are able to obtain prints just as detailed nowadays. 

[Grotsmasha]

I have noticed that some Forge World kits are resin casts of 3D printed masters, where layer lines are still visible. The Custodes Sagittarum upgrade kit is an example: look at the arms (around the elbows) and you'll see the 3D printed layer lines. 

It's likely that they have been using industrial grade printers for that (Formlabs Form 2 or Form 3 maybe?), but retail ones are able to obtain prints just as detailed nowadays. 

 

My Dark Angels Leviathan also has very clear layer lines in hard to sand places, like the insides of the shoulder mounts.

[Daedalus81]

This is all why GW is getting back into big sanctioned tournaments.  If you want to play in the big leagues then you need official models ( or models that look the part ).

 

I don't care for people printing off alternate stuff, but copying GW and printing off models is kind of outside my moral compass.

[The Neverborn]

This is all why GW is getting back into big sanctioned tournaments.  If you want to play in the big leagues then you need official models ( or models that look the part ).

 

I don't care for people printing off alternate stuff, but copying GW and printing off models is kind of outside my moral compass.

 

I can absolutely see 3 mini factions forming in the hobby.

 

• Those who will only use GW models, regardless, for whatever the reason.
• Those will will avoid using GW models, wherever possible.
• And those that use a mixture of GW models and Non-GW modelling - depending on other factors.

 

Personally I'm in the last group.

 

I understand I won't be able to use them in any official tournaments, unless I can get my hands ones that are indistinguible when painted.

 

That said; where I live in the UK, I've not even heard of anyone that's been to "official tournaments". But I have heard players going to Tournaments which allowed Re-Cast models. I distinctly remember one guy having a wooden Thunderhawk Gunship. So I suspect that restriction to be a minimal factor in hobbyist overall decision. Consumer loyalty, or lack of it, the players view on the perceived effect of 3D Printing, the player's view on the morality involved and their economic position will have a far greater influence. 

[sarabando]

i wouldnt touch 3rd party minis because 90% of the time they didnt "look" right but with printing there are so many options that have that look and GW has been moving in a different style for a while so its all wins for me.

[XeonDragon]

I'm in the last group as well. Happily mix, kit-bash etc. If a tournament is strictly only GW, then I can put an army of "pure" GW models (including without 3rd party bits) on the table, if I wanted too - but I wouldn't want to :)

 

This is all why GW is getting back into big sanctioned tournaments.  If you want to play in the big leagues then you need official models ( or models that look the part ).

 

I don't care for people printing off alternate stuff, but copying GW and printing off models is kind of outside my moral compass.

 

I can absolutely see 3 mini factions forming in the hobby.

 

• Those who will only use GW models, regardless, for whatever the reason.
• Those will will avoid using GW models, wherever possible.
• And those that use a mixture of GW models and Non-GW modelling - depending on other factors.

 

Personally I'm in the last group.

 

I understand I won't be able to use them in any official tournaments, unless I can get my hands ones that are indistinguible when painted.

 

That said; where I live in the UK, I've not even heard of anyone that's been to "official tournaments". But I have heard players going to Tournaments which allowed Re-Cast models. I distinctly remember one guy having a wooden Thunderhawk Gunship. So I suspect that restriction to be a minimal factor in hobbyist overall decision. Consumer loyalty, or lack of it, the players view on the perceived effect of 3D Printing, the player's view on the morality involved and their economic position will have a far greater influence. 

 

[Philip S]

The music industry was a lot more accepting of digital downloads once they sorted out digital rights management.

I'd image GW would like the idea of an encrypted STL file format with DRM, for home printing.

Once someone invents that, and shows it to GW the inventor could cut a deal.

Perhaps one day GW will offer such a home 3D printer on their site, which comes with a premium membership for downloading models.

?

[Evil Eye]

(Disclaimer: I don't play tournaments and I have not one but two FLGSs- The Games Table in Norwich, which definitely allows 3P, and Athena Games, also in Norwich, which probably does seeing as they sell loads of other miniatures and games- so it's less of an issue to me from that perspective.)

I would never (intentionally) buy recasts of in-production GW or FW products; there are ways of getting miniatures cheaper without resorting to recasts, and it just doesn't quite sit right with me. There's also the fact that in the case of plastics, a resin version of a plastic kit feels weird. I feel the same way about 3D printed copies of models. If the model is still in production and legally obtainable I'm not going to buy a replica just to save a few pennies.

 

With OOP models I feel it's more of a grey area; in the case of old FW models that are never getting reissued ever again I would not only be willing to buy recasts, I actually have. Not as some kind of "Stick it to the man" gesture, but just because an in good condition, unpainted and unassembled Mk IV Dreadnought of genuine origin is borderline impossible to find (and in some cases, like the FW Hive Tyrants, even recasts are incredibly scarce). Once again I feel the same about this with 3D printing as I do with traditional casting; if GW or FW do not produce the model anymore, then it doesn't really matter if I find a real one on eBay, a recast on =][=CENSORED=][= or an .stl, I literally cannot give GeeDubs my money. If they were to reissue the models I'd happily pony up the cash, but I somewhat suspect they won't.

 

As for bitz and original models that are meant to go with Warhammer but are entirely original in sculpt, I have no qualms at all about 3D printed stuff. At the end of the day, an original model/part is an original model/part regardless of whether it's cast in pewter and delivered by post or stored in digital form and printed at home.

 

I don't actually have a 3D printer yet due to lack of money and space (I am eyeing the Elegoo Saturn though some day) but if as and when I do acquire one, I intend to use it. Assuming I can figure out how to use Blender with a bit more proficiency I already have ideas...

[The Neverborn]

As hobbyist there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic with 3D printing.  

 

Either you can get the models cheaper or more variation in them. I can't see GW not reacting in someway. It's a really interesting time to be in the hobby. 

 

Myself would I buy a recast... I all ready have. I downloaded Mp3s on Napster, I had at one point over 100 pirated movies. It's all piracy and a crime and I understand that. I understand that it's immoral and a crime. I smoked weed too, drunk alcohol before the age of 18. And I enjoyed myself, not lost a second of sleep over any of the above. Essentially I'm willing to commit a crime if I don't care for the law, think I can get away with it and I'm in someway incentivised too.

 

I'd be willing to be a lot of people do the same. Some will refused to, that's up to them. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Battle Brother Abderus

[slitth]

I think that 3d printing will be part of GW business plan in the future.

 

And I think that it will be determined on what is product is profitable to produce in the future.

So we will see box sets and the like as we do now.

 

Where 3d printing comes in is in the old bitz deal.

So the small upgrade sets, shoulder parts, weapon upgrades.

Maybe also outdated specialist games.

 

But it will only be the files that GW release that will be approved.

 

All other files and 3d prints will be hunted down.

Not because they mind 3D a few miniatures, the majority will still buy their sets anyway.

But they have to be seen to protect their intellectual property, or they will legally lose it.

 

Personally I would love to see them create a imperial guard weapon-set, and then encourage people to create or use infantry models so we can get the variety on the tabletop

Edited November 3, 2021 by slitth

[Grotsmasha]

Just saw a vid by Commissar Gamza (he's very pro 3D printing / anti GW atm) where a viewer has submitted pics from Warhammer World with clearly 3D printed models in the display cases (Imperial Knights and Primaris). 

[Orange Knight]

GW uses 3D printing on some model designs. Some kits receive 3D Printed mock-ups before the final plastic kit is completed.

 

Sometimes the 3D Printed kits are the ones they paint up for promotions and later use in displays.

[AenarIT]

Yeah, many showcased models painted by the Eavy Metal team have print lines on them.

It's obviously cheaper and easier to do than wait for the injection mould to be ready, in order to produce the box art. 

Thing is, they have also resorted to 3D printing masters for Forge World kits. And sometimes they forget to file them off before using that master in resin casting, so your expensive Forge World kits end up having layer lines as well. Check the arms of the Custodes Sagittarum kit if you don't believe me. 

I love 3D printing and I have no problem with that, it's just that it makes the crusade against 3D printing a bit moot. 

[Domhnall]

GW uses 3D printing on some model designs. Some kits receive 3D Printed mock-ups before the final plastic kit is completed.

 

Sometimes the 3D Printed kits are the ones they paint up for promotions and later use in displays.

 

I remember a good few years ago there was an article in white dwarf where they went through the process of making a new kit from start to finish. They went through the history of when it used to be a scaled up mock up before scaling back down to size, but since they started with CAD figures, they would 3D print them to check to make sure they worked all through the design process. The final 3D print master would then be sent to the 'Eavy Metal team for painting while the kits got produced. 

 

GW have been using 3D printing pretty much since it's been useful as far I as know, and they've never denied that*. But for the making of the actual kits to be sold,  and when you are producing figures in the huge numbers that they do, injection moulding is still the cheapest and quickest in the long term.

Just think, at the moment there are about 400 stores, so let's make a conservative estimate that there are 500 'kits' in any given store on average (single figures + boxes). That's a decent 200,000 kits in GW stores alone, today. That's not including warehouse stock, FLGS, online stores, any kits already sold, any kits not made yet. That's a lot of kits! £350m of revenue worth!

In simplistic terms^, if that was only boxes of Intercessors that were sold (£35 per box), that would 10m boxes sold last year! 

 

 

* - so these videos 'calling out' GW for using 3D printers is not news, just another easy video for views. 

 

^ - I know this would include such things as books, big box sets, large kits, small kits, single figures etc, but that's not as fun because Wow! Such Numbers! 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Domhnall