Can new chapters be founded using Black Templar gene seed?

[Spectral Bob]

Love everything esthetically about the new Black Templars models... absolutely hate painting black armor lol. So, I am considering creating my own chapter but need to settle my head canon regarding whether BT gene seed could/would be used to found a new chapter...

 

Any facts or thoughts on this subject is appreciated.

[WARMASTER_]

Hey you can absolutely found space marine chapters from Second founding and later founding chapters and it’s been done many times in the lore, it’s especially present in the Badab War books (I believe the executioners have 3 recorded chapters that are successors of them and they’re sons of Dorn)

 

Although it’s probably easier with cannon to say they’re sons of Dorn that inherited in Zealous nature instead of actual BT successors as I doubt the BT’s would allow it, but either can work as with everything 40K it’s really up to you

Edited October 3, 2021 by BladeOfVengeance

[Tokugawa]

Paint them in the colors you like, and pick a set of successors chapter tactics you prefer. Done.

[Spinsanity]

Love everything esthetically about the new Black Templars models... absolutely hate painting black armor lol. So, I am considering creating my own chapter but need to settle my head canon regarding whether BT gene seed could/would be used to found a new chapter...

 

Any facts or thoughts on this subject is appreciated.

As BladeOfVengeance has said, ForgeWorld has identified quite a few Chapters with a parent Chapter that isn't any one of the founding Legions; the Executioners (a 3rd founding successor of the Imperial Fists) have been identified as the ancestor of the Iron Champions, Crimson Axes and Skull Bearers, we also know that the Astral Claws sired the Tiger Claws, the Eagle Warriors the Marines Errant, and there are bound to be more I forget.

 

+Edit: typo

Edited October 3, 2021 by Spinsanity

[Guest]

I was thinking of this myself :)..

 

[Medjugorje]

Each crusade could be painted different. For a special reason they can be painted into another color. You just need a good reason for that.

 

Red as honor of a spilled blood of a sacrified saint.

Yellow as the close bond to the imperial fists.

 

 

You can choose to paint them as White Templars or Red Templars but playing them with BT rules so far. 

[Mandragola]

You can paint your models however you want and use the rules you like. That scheme looks very cool.

 

Strictly speaking, the codex doesn't let you play as a successor of the Black Templars (or Flesh Tearers or Crimson Fists). But there's no reason not to just play using the actual BT rules. Your guys could even be "real" BTs who've decided to paint their armour red for some reason. It's easy to imagine them swearing a vow of some sort or a particular crusade that requires this for some reason or other.

[Acebaur]

Each crusade could be painted different. For a special reason they can be painted into another color. You just need a good reason for that.

 

Red as honor of a spilled blood of a sacrified saint.

Yellow as the close bond to the imperial fists.

 

 

You can choose to paint them as White Templars or Red Templars but playing them with BT rules so far. 

 

 

I mean no, I can't see any reason why a chapter like BT would change their entire armor color. Also White and Red Templars are codex adherent and at least one of them is a UM successor. 

 

That said, you could just be a custom chapter that fights in the style of BT and go with that. 

What about painting black do you hate? there is a ton of tutorials out there about doing it in a variety of ways 

[Marshall Bretton]

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

[Gamiel]

The Imperial Paladins use the BT alternative shoulderpad (the one with the skull over the Maltese cross), and the Hospitallers uses the Maltese cross

[Acebaur]

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

 

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Gotta agree with Ace here. That's fake news.

[Medjugorje]

 

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

 

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

 

All other chapters with "Templar" in its name are strictly Successors of Dorn. Maybe they have a similar fighting strategy and doctrines but in old codex 4th edition there was a short story that the BT chapter is very reserved with its gene seed levies.

 

 

@Ace - GW even mentioned that each crusade has their own rites and stuff. It could a reason for penance or something else.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Gamiel]

 

 

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

 

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

 

All other chapters with "Templar" in its name are strictly Successors of Dorn. Maybe they have a similar fighting strategy and doctrines but in old codex 4th edition there was a short story that the BT chapter is very reserved with its gene seed levies

The Silver Templars and the Templars of Blood want to speak with you

[redmapa]

Successors dont have Successors, they will all be successors of the Imperial Fists and the only thing a successor will be asked to give is a cadre of veterans and specialists. The BT are a chapter that is perhaps too independent to be given the task of training a chapter, why give that job to a chapter that flaunts its disregard for the 1000 marine limit law and is arrogant enough to pick distress calls to help? You could just give it to the hundreds of other Chapters that are far easier to control and abide to aspects of the Imperial law, so I doubt the High Lords would give the BT 1000 recruits and tell them to create this other Chapter, they probably would just keep them for themselves because in their own dogma there's nothing wrong with a 1000 more marines.

 

If you wanted to use our rules for your chapter then go ahead, Executioners were described as following Sigismund's own teachings as inspiration for Rann's chapter and Empero's Champion in other Chapters used to be a thing so there's plenty of space for your Chapter to follow the BT example in some ways.

Edited October 3, 2021 by redmapa

[Medjugorje]

you are correct. I said something stupid. I was meaning something very different. 

 

Just that all dornian "Templars" are made from Dorns geneseed - not especially from BT geneseed just because a "Templar" in its name. #

 

 

@redmapa - thats very wrong indeed. the Executioners have at least 3 successors. They are still a successor chapter of the imperial fists because its the original "legion". 

 

So a BT successor would be a IF successor as well.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Medjugorje

[Gederas]

Successors dont have Successors, they will all be successors of the Imperial Fists and the only thing a successor will be asked to give is a cadre of veterans and specialists

So explain the Iron Champions, Crimson Axes (successors of the Executioners, who are successors of the Imperial Fists) and the Marines Errant (successors of the Eagle Warriors, who are successors of the Ultramarines) then?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Gederas

[Marshal Reinhard]

It's just semantics. All of Dorn's lineage are successors to the imperial fists ultimately. To truly be a successors of the templars would neccessitate that you succeed the black templar culture and methods of war. 

 

Suppossedly you if Templars were the ones donating the gene-seed to make a new chapter, you could speak of the new chapter as a successor to them.... but see above.

[Closet Skeleton]

First Founding is 30,000 years ago, its not that relevent to most chapters. Geneseed is basically just geneseed and has drifted a lot, quirks from later tampering and degradation are far more widespread than the divergeant first founding chapters who represent a tiny minority of 41st millenium marines.

 

There are probably unknown Primarch chapters who have successors even.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Closet Skeleton

[WARMASTER_]

Successors dont have Successors, they will all be successors of the Imperial Fists and the only thing a successor will be asked to give is a cadre of veterans and specialists.

Sorry but as others have said you’re quite far off on this, it’s been documented through the imperial Armour books that they do…

 

The Iron champions for example will be “Executioner” Gene seed taken from there own stores on Terra, not imperial fists stores, they’ll be a myriad of reasons for choosing other Gene stores rather than first foundings, generally these will be basic availability and Stability. is the chapter hard pressed? or do you currently have “spare” Geneseed to give… Is the chapter wiling to give over a Cadre of veterans and officers ( A vastly precious resource to them)

 

Also are the Adeptus Terra concerned of possible legion building like with the dark angels, they have the most stable Gene seed apart from the UM and there’s quite few successors for that reason

[Sword Brother Adelard]

First Founding is 30,000 years ago, its not that relevent to most chapters. Geneseed is basically just geneseed and has drifted a lot, quirks from later tampering and degradation are far more widespread than the divergeant first founding chapters who represent a tiny minority of 41st millenium marines.

 

There are probably unknown Primarch chapters who have successors even.

 

Its 10,000?

[Marshall Bretton]

 

 

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

Honestly I don't have a source, it's something I remember from older lore but I really can't say where from and as I said everything is in boxes so I can't look for it.

 

However going back to the original question, if we leave the argument of whether they are bt or if successors aside, I see no reason that there couldn't be chapters who are directly split from the bt. if we treat them like a crusader order from medieval times (which is what they are based on ofc) there is definite precedent for new orders to be formed from an existing order. The Knights hospitalar were a direct offshoot of the Knights templar. The Teutonic order was formed from the Livonian order. Basically I see no reason why there couldn't be a fluff justification for a Templar "successor" chapter

[Gamiel]

Love everything esthetically about the new Black Templars models... absolutely hate painting black armor lol. So, I am considering creating my own chapter but need to settle my head canon regarding whether BT gene seed could/would be used to found a new chapter...

 

Any facts or thoughts on this subject is appreciated.

Maybe sacrilege to mention this in the BT part of the forum but there is a BA successor called Templars of Blood that has no description regarding their colours or look. If you want could you use the BA rules together with the BT figures to represent the Templars of Blood.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

Honestly I don't have a source, it's something I remember from older lore but I really can't say where from and as I said everything is in boxes so I can't look for it.

 

However going back to the original question, if we leave the argument of whether they are bt or if successors aside, I see no reason that there couldn't be chapters who are directly split from the bt. if we treat them like a crusader order from medieval times (which is what they are based on ofc) there is definite precedent for new orders to be formed from an existing order. The Knights hospitalar were a direct offshoot of the Knights templar. The Teutonic order was formed from the Livonian order. Basically I see no reason why there couldn't be a fluff justification for a Templar "successor" chapter

 

Funny fact: Knights hospitaler have nothing to do with the Templar except that the founders take some inspiration from the orignial Templar Order.

[Marshall Bretton]

 

 

 

 

In the older codexes there were definitely references to bt successors. There could be all sorts of reasons for it. From purely practical purposes to an idealogical difference with current chapter command.

 

I do seem to remember a specific example where a successor chapter was formed after the inquisition started asking questions about the number of templars so they made a new chapter to cover it up a bit. All my old books are in boxes ATM so can't look up the details

There's never been a reference to BT successors in any codex that I've seen. Do you have a source?

Honestly I don't have a source, it's something I remember from older lore but I really can't say where from and as I said everything is in boxes so I can't look for it.

 

However going back to the original question, if we leave the argument of whether they are bt or if successors aside, I see no reason that there couldn't be chapters who are directly split from the bt. if we treat them like a crusader order from medieval times (which is what they are based on ofc) there is definite precedent for new orders to be formed from an existing order. The Knights hospitalar were a direct offshoot of the Knights templar. The Teutonic order was formed from the Livonian order. Basically I see no reason why there couldn't be a fluff justification for a Templar "successor" chapter

Funny fact: Knights hospitaler have nothing to do with the Templar except that the founders take some inspiration from the orignial Templar Order.

That's interesting, without going into historical debate the histories I have read have them splitting off some time after the templars were founded. Regardless there were fully fledged crusader orders that were direct offshoots of both the templars and hospitalars