Sammael vs biker Captain.

[SmiteThemAll]

Hey guys,

 

Just wanted to ask what you all thought of using a biker Captain with the mace of redemption and chapter master upgrade vs Sammael.

 

I want the CM re-rolls for a squad of black knights and I also want a fighty character to menace my opponent and deter charges vs my objective holding units.

 

I don't currently own the sammael model and tbh I think its a bit ugly. If you guys convince me to include him instead of a bike captain I could certainly make a conversion.

 

Thanks for any help!

[Karhedron]

Can the Biker Captain take a Mace of Redemption? I could be wrong but I thought he was limited to just the standard list of Codex melee weapons.

[phandaal]

Can the Biker Captain take a Mace of Redemption? I could be wrong but I thought he was limited to just the standard list of Codex melee weapons.

 

He can take the Mace of Redemption if he is equipped with a power maul.

[Karhedron]

Looking at the stats, I don't think the Mace of Redemption is that good. Unless you are fighting Heretic Astartes, I would suggest a Thunder Hammer is just as good and does not use up your Relic slot. I rarely take Relic weapons as I find that the capabilities offered by other Relics is often more useful than a slight increase in lethality.

[SmiteThemAll]

Looking at the stats, I don't think the Mace of Redemption is that good. Unless you are fighting Heretic Astartes, I would suggest a Thunder Hammer is just as good and does not use up your Relic slot. I rarely take Relic weapons as I find that the capabilities offered by other Relics is often more useful than a slight increase in lethality.

 

Well its fairly close between the mace and the hammer. The hammer has 3 dmg vs 2. The Hammer has -2AP vs -3AP for the mace. They are both strength x2. The mace suffers no hit penalty and has the mortal wound mechanic vs chaos. The mace also only costs 5 points.

 

But even if you prefer the Thunder hammer the question remains. Sammael or a Bike CM ?

[XeonDragon]

I'd go with Sammael:

 

• 150 vs 140 (base, no upgrades)
• 15" move vs 14" move
• Same WS/BS 2+, 3+, 4++, Ld, both T5. Both 4 attacks. Both re-roll 1s to core, CM re-rolls to 1 unit.
• 8 wounds vs 6
• Shooting: 8 bolter shots + D3 master-crafted plasma cannon shots vs 4 bolter shots + any gun you give the captain (e.g. master-crafted combi-bolter for 10 points + 1CP)
• Melee (on the charge): 5 S12, AP-4, D2 attacks hitting on 2+ vs 6 S5, AP-1, D1 (chainsword) or whatever other weapon you give the captain. With the mace of redemption (also hitting on 2+) is 5 S8, AP-3, D2 attacks + special rules for mortal wounds vs Chaos 
• Melee (after the charge) 4 S6, AP-4, D2 attacks vs 4 S8, AP-3, D2 attacks + special rules for mortal wounds vs Chaos both hitting on 2s.
• Native fall back and shoot vs need a stratagem etc.
• Sammael has round 60mm flying base, bike captain has oval 75 x 25 mm base, so in terms of spreading the re-roll auras, maybe a slight advantage to the bike captain. 

I think if you math-hammered it out, Sammael would be more points efficient (i.e. less points per point of unsaved damage inflicted) than a base bike captain, a bike captain with equivalent kit (e.g. combi-plasma + MC power sword or other melee weapon). Against chaos however, I think it would be very even, maybe slightly in favour to the bike captain due to mortal wounds in melee.

 

If your local meta has lots of chaos, coin-toss. If not, I'd go Sammael. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by XeonDragon

[SmiteThemAll]

I'd go with Sammael:

 

• 150 vs 140 (base, no upgrades)
• 15" move vs 14" move
• Same WS/BS 2+, 3+, 4++, Ld, both T5. Both 4 attacks. Both re-roll 1s to core, CM re-rolls to 1 unit.
• 8 wounds vs 6
• Shooting: 8 bolter shots + D3 master-crafted plasma cannon shots vs 4 bolter shots + any gun you give the captain (e.g. master-crafted combi-bolter for 10 points + 1CP)
• Melee (on the charge): 5 S12, AP-4, D2 attacks hitting on 2+ vs 6 S5, AP-1, D1 (chainsword) or whatever other weapon you give the captain. With the mace of redemption (also hitting on 2+) is 5 S8, AP-3, D2 attacks + special rules for mortal wounds vs Chaos 
• Melee (after the charge) 4 S6, AP-4, D2 attacks vs 4 S8, AP-3, D2 attacks + special rules for mortal wounds vs Chaos both hitting on 2s.
• Native fall back and shoot vs need a stratagem etc.
• Sammael has round 40mm base, bike captain has oval 75 x 25 mm base, so in terms of spreading the re-roll auras, maybe a slight advantage to the bike captain. 

I think if you math-hammered it out, Sammael would be more points efficient (i.e. less points per point of unsaved damage inflicted) than a base bike captain, a bike captain with equivalent kit (e.g. combi-plasma + MC power sword or other melee weapon). Against chaos however, I think it would be very even, maybe slightly in favour to the bike captain due to mortal wounds in melee.

 

If your local meta has lots of chaos, coin-toss. If not, I'd go Sammael. 

 

 

Thanks, that is a really helpful breakdown. I think with the extra wounds, shooting, being able to fall back and shoot and saving a CP buying a relic, Sammael is definitely the winner VS all comers.

 

Now to find a model I can use, or maybe just a head swap on the current one.

 

Any ideas guys? 

Thanks for all the responses so far. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sammy is definitely a star in the Ravenwing, if you don't like the look there are many cool conversions made from Custodes bikers around for inspiration.

 

Also, to add a correction to the excellent breakdown above by Brother XeonDragon. Sammy is on a 60mm flying base not 40mm so auras are very similar.

[XeonDragon]

Ah, my mistake, I will fix it! Thanks :)

Sammy is definitely a star in the Ravenwing, if you don't like the look there are many cool conversions made from Custodes bikers around for inspiration.

Also, to add a correction to the excellent breakdown above by Brother XeonDragon. Sammy is on a 60mm flying base not 40mm so auras are very similar.

[SmiteThemAll]

Sammy is definitely a star in the Ravenwing, if you don't like the look there are many cool conversions made from Custodes bikers around for inspiration.

 

Also, to add a correction to the excellent breakdown above by Brother XeonDragon. Sammy is on a 60mm flying base not 40mm so auras are very similar.

 

I've ordered the Kromlech iron shark jetbike and some bits. Hopefully I can make a conversion I'm happy with.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Great idea, be sure to share any pics you take here for the Frater.

[Vulshra]

Another thought: for 105, you get a master with a power sword. For 2cp, you give them furry of the lion, imperium's sword, and the Heavenfall Blade. On the charge it's more attacks, same str, and cheaper. For another 5pts you can add a lighting claw for even more attacks

[Master Sheol]

I agree that for a RW detachment Sammael is really the best choice

The biker captain is useful if you want to make a successor chapter and follow the "no special characters in successors" rule

 

I bought a Sammael using the WH+ voucher because i had only a LS one and now i have to use it as a Talonmaster

[SmiteThemAll]

If I give my chapter master on bike rites on inititiation does he benefit from the permanent transhuman? Or is that just too good to be true?

Seems obnoxious

[dice4thedicegod]

 

 

Sammy is definitely a star in the Ravenwing, if you don't like the look there are many cool conversions made from Custodes bikers around for inspiration.

 

Also, to add a correction to the excellent breakdown above by Brother XeonDragon. Sammy is on a 60mm flying base not 40mm so auras are very similar.

I've ordered the Kromlech iron shark jetbike and some bits. Hopefully I can make a conversion I'm happy with.

I used the kromlech iron shark for mine too (just stuck a plasma cannon on it) :)

[phandaal]

If I give my chapter master on bike rites on inititiation does he benefit from the permanent transhuman? Or is that just too good to be true?

Seems obnoxious

Bikers do not get the mini Transhuman from Inner Circle, unfortunately.

[Malakithe]

Which would be better for a more generalist list that had a bit of everything and a single 5 man unit of Black Knights? 

[Master Sheol]

Which would be better for a more generalist list that had a bit of everything and a single 5 man unit of Black Knights?

Sammael on RW units give the full reroll to hit, captain on bike only reroll of 1s

[exsulis81]

This thread makes me want to pull my Sammy out of his box, and finish him.

[XeonDragon]

This thread makes me want to pull my Sammy out of his box, and finish him.

Do it! :)